When researching about John Armstrong, the former well known model railroader who contributed alot to the hobby, such as his skill in trackplanning and other contribtions I saw some videos of his famous O scale layout, called the Canandaigua Southern. I first remember seeing photos of in in my first issue of Model Railroader Magazine, although disappointingly not included was a trackplan, as I did not it until I got acess to the archives.I learned he created his own version of a lima superpower allegheny 2-6-6-6 style locomotive for his Canandaigua Southern, which would become his own wheel configuration being a 4-6-6-6. He wanted this locomotive to run at higher speeds then the real 2-6-6-6 H8s did, do he added a two axle, four wheel leading truck.Prehaps one day I would like to try to build one of his locomotives in HO, like this one. I do have some questions about it I wish to know from tose who are knowladgable about his work. - What was its class number and letters? Example being the 2-6-6-6 algehnies class being called H8
- What did its whistle sound like? I dont know if John Armstrong used DCC/sound or DC, but what did he have in mind for a whistle?- I am looking for an article of how he created it, which I saw recently but am trying to find which I would like help in finding it. I understand he used a O scale challanger kit in building, along with kitbashing and all.- Has anyone tried to build on in HO scale via scratchbuilding and kitbahsing? I would also like to see some sources of photos to use as references for building one someday.
I think the best way to describe the Super-Allegheny would be to note that it was far more like a hinged PRR Q2 with one more driving axle than any 2-6-6-x. I am tempted to say accordingly that its whistle would have been common to the one on the Q2 (not a banshee but a full PRR chime whistle, perhaps sounding different when blown on 300psi steam than on earlier PRR power...) Now keep in mind that this would almost certainly have been blown with a Viloco air-operated valve, so no quilling... but you could easily arrange a Wagner fluidic-amplifier arrangement to make steam to the whistle proportional to air flow... it would just cost more. After about 1947 expect air horn replacement (a 1sec whistle blast costing over 6lb of steam and all the heat needed to make it) and after 1950 expect that to be a chime horn on this kind of power if 'steam survived' in your model world.
We need more pictures of the Super-Allegheny -- they exist but are hard to find in 'linkable' form.
An engine of this sort would have been marginally heavier and longer than an equivalent 2-6-6-4 and would have had longer piston rods in the forward engine to keep all four mains and cross head masses equal. Presumably the grate area was expanded slightly to require the six-wheel trailing truck, and in so doing the water rate of the Q2, already high, would have further increased, meaning (as in real life) the useful range of the engine even with a large cistern would be little more than 100 miles, negating much of any speed advantage over a 2-6-6-6 likely requiring less pay to run unless an active network of track pans were provided -- for serious wartime work where high speed and limited time were important I suspect multiple auxiliary tanks with treated water would have been used (much of the water treatment needed in a '40s alloy boiler is NOT compatible with even regular-speed scooping...)
Arguably with the quoted height of this locomotive the design could have had both a double Belpaire chamber (think 'hips on the bottom' ahead of the firebox to match those on the top, increasing both the radiant gas volume and uptake area) together with 70" drivers. The result with N&W balancing would have run at any speed required of a licomotive that size; it would be interesting to contemplate -- as N&W did -- the effect of using Timken lightweight roller-bearing rods on a six-coupled-engine articulated...
Armstrong notably wrote an article for MR in 1969 concerning how to make locomotive sound simulate increased load -- so if there was sound in the Super-Allegheny it would have been load-proportional but analog and perhaps not comparable to 'modern' digital rendition. It would have been interesting to see what he would have done if he had not died in 2004 and implemented the conversion from 3rd rail to DCC...
When it comes to private roadname railroads, it is very difficult to find much specific information unless that railroad is the ALLEGHENY MIDLAND, VIRGINIAN AND OHIO, or the GORRE AND DAPHETID.
As far as class numbers and whistle types, unless you can find someone who operated the layout with John Armstrong, this information, if it ever existed at all, is probably long lost.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I'm not so sure John even considered those minute details. He didn;t always practice what he preached - I suspect I never would have been able to see all of his layout do to a too large body in a too small a space. He sacrificed the aisle size to get usable trackage, and the loco in question was his idea of a somewhat logical extrapolation of an existing design to haul the required tonnage. Specifically what kind of whistle it carried? Doubt he cared. Ulike the later efforts of Allen and Tony to develop a very cohesive overall design for a freelanced railroad, John was more about getting the trains where they needed to be, and how they managed to punch through the physical world.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinkerSpecifically what kind of whistle it carried? Doubt he cared.
+1
Having met John and visited his layout, I can be pretty sure that he didn't care. The 4-6-6-6 was not prominently displayed. So rather than worrying about this firebox or that feedwater heater, he probably just used a lot of the Challenger kit (if that's what it was) with which he began. And the whistles were only in the operators' imaginations.
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyamaHaving met John and visited his layout, I can be pretty sure that he didn't care.
The whistle, on the other hand, might well have been something Mr. Armstrong modeled, as he was notable for working on realistic analog sound early (viz. the imitation of 'load' complete with strain-gage equivalent at the drawbar, documented in MR in 1969). It is hard to believe he would model variable steam effort and not model "a" whistle -- whether or not he took any interest in faithfully modeling the appearance details of said whistle.
It is hard to believe the locomotive does not survive somewhere, perhaps complete with whatever sound arrangement it might have utilized. If there are recordings of it with sound, they might have the answer too.
The Super-Allegheny is about as different from a Challenger as you can get and still have simply-articulated three-axle engines. It is possible that he used a J1 as the starting model, but not likely that he bashed that rather distinctive Belpaire boiler which is very reminiscent of what is on a Q2. And the other proportions of the engine are very similar, as I said, to the logical lengthening of that locomotive by one driver axle...
The Super-Allegheny is about as different from a Challenger as you can get and still have simply-articulated three-axle engines. It is possible that he used a J1 as the starting model (see the shape of the firebox legs and the D-window cab), but not likely that was thinking of one when he bashed that rather distinctive Belpaire boiler which is very reminiscent of what is on a Q2. And the other proportions of the engine are very similar, as I said, to the logical lengthening of that locomotive by one driver axle...
OvermodIt is hard to believe he would model variable steam effort and not model "a" whistle -- whether or not he took any interest in faithfully modeling the appearance details of said whistle.
As I recall, John didn't have whistle sounds for any engines when I was there in the '90s.
OvermodThe Super-Allegheny is about as different from a Challenger as you can get and still have simply-articulated three-axle engines.
The Original Poster mentioned the Challenger, I don't know. I suggest that you may be applying a current-day finescale modeling mindset – while Armstrong's approach was more informed by the '50s and '60s and by the lesser availability of O scale equipment outside of brass.
In any case, based on the OP's past explorations, this seems unlikely to bear fruit.
I don't know how much of that sound stuff he actually built, vs how much was a thought experiment and mechanical design. I've seen pictures where he built at least one prototype, but I have doubts that he outfitted much of his fleet with is. Some of his ideas for the mechanical control of switches to adjust chuffs based on the pull or push of the train behind the loco become obsolete once it could be done by tracking BEMF of the motor. Plus it never seemed feasible for anything smaller than O scale (which was fine for Armstrong).
I went back to an interview with Armstrong from Model Railroad Planning 1995 in which he indicated that he classified the 4-6-6-6 as "T-1". I have no idea how he classified anything else on the layout.
cuyamaI went back to an interview with Armstrong from Model Railroad Planning 1995 in which he indicated that he classified the 4-6-6-6 as "T-1".
If you look at the locomotive, the similarity of much of the detail to the Q2 will jump out at you. A Challenger has a completely different firebox structure, trailing truck, and relationship of driver wheelbase to boiler, engine length, and mass balance. While he might have chosen to use a model Challenger mechanism for the two engines, and perhaps for some of the forward boiler or smokebox wrapper, most of the rest of the visible detail follows a very different prototype, notably the frame behind the last driver pair. Interestingly the actual construction detail of his Belpaire firebox appears to be freelanced over a radial-stay 'original' but if that started out life as a Challenger shell, it has been extensively reshaped away from any prototypic configuration such a locomotive would use.
Engi1487 I dont know if John Armstrong used DCC/sound or DC, but what did he have in mind for a whistle?
He didn't use either one, his layout was AC / outside third rail. Lionel and Marx made electric whistles that were mechanical - that is, a little motor ran a blower that blew air through a small whistle - but most 'serious' O scalers considered the sound to be too toy-like to use it on a scale layout. However, he did use a couple of Lionel 700E Hudsons IIRC, which came with the Lionel whistle installed in the tender, so he may blown their whistle on occassion.