PRR8259With packing engines, it can cost more money to sell an undecorated diesel engine. This I have on good authority from a current American importer
I have the exact same information on good authority from a major importer, directly from the owner.
Producing an undecorated model gums up everything.
Engi1487, so learning how to take off the paint off the shell, and fine details such s grab irons and ladder rails is a bit nearvracking to me.
Good luck. I would not attempt it.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190SeeYou190 wrote the following post 22 hours ago: MARTIN STATION when you bought an undecorated locomotive you used to get a lot of optional parts like both dynamic/non-dynamic brake hatches, plows and footboards and other optional parts, My Proto-2000 SD-7 was really a weird experience for me. Every undecorated model I saw said something like "SD-7 with dynamic brakes" on the box, I did not want dynamic brakes. Finally I just went ahead and bought one, and in the box the non-dynamic hood was included in the parts pack. I wish the box label would have let me know the parts for both options were included.
The Missabe RR Historical Society magazine had a great article about detailing and decorating an Athearn SD-9 into a correct DMIR engine about the time Proto came out with their SD-7, so I figured that was a good start and picked up an undecorated one. It turns out that I didn't need to go out and buy the list of detail parts included in the article, IIRC the only thing not included in the parts that came with the undec SD-7 was a five-chime airhorn and all-weather cab windows.
Of course a year or two later Life-Like came out with an SD-9 decorated for the Missabe....
I have 2 atlas CO cabooses, 2 FMC 5077 50' boxcars, and 3 single sheathed boxcars that will hold the old railway reporting marks.
There has been times I wanted to get some GP38, 8-40CW, covered hoppers, data only open hopper. I just don't have the supplies to do it.
I'm thinking of getting painted LW passenger cars, strip them for my road. Including SD40-2. The same with F3 and F7 with single headlights. I did miss getting the undecorated F7B. Because I struggled to figure out how many I needed to model two different paint schemes.
I can't seem to open an Atlas N scale CO caboose. One caboose has a broken ladder handle.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
And try removing the glued-on handrails on a Bachmann loco, I still haven't found a solvent for that glue.
SeeYou190 This is the viewpoint of a modeller that NEEDS undecorated models. 1: Please do not start to respond by telling me stripping paint is an option, it is not. Sure, you can remove the paint and lettering from a Stewart F7 if you need to, but a modern hyper-detailed Chinese made Rapido FP7, never. I challenge anyone to strip the paint off of one of those in any sort of practicle fashion. -Kevin
This is the viewpoint of a modeller that NEEDS undecorated models.
1: Please do not start to respond by telling me stripping paint is an option, it is not. Sure, you can remove the paint and lettering from a Stewart F7 if you need to, but a modern hyper-detailed Chinese made Rapido FP7, never. I challenge anyone to strip the paint off of one of those in any sort of practicle fashion.
With packing engines, it can cost more money to sell an undecorated diesel engine. This I have on good authority from a current American importer.
Why? Because the whole Chinese assembly-line model is geared toward selling RTR models. If they lose a part on the floor, they simply pick up another from the pile and glue it on the model.
With undecorated kits, the photos above show an extreme example. With diesels, they have to be packed differently for safety. The packages are designed differently. Also all the parts have to be counted out, and then somebody has to double check the counts. Therefore, it takes MORE labor to offer an undecorated diesel model than to offer a decorated rtr model, even after allowing for NOT painting the model. The painting is usually a very efficient process; packing kits and doublechecking the parts count is definitely NOT (I have personally done it myself).
John
Hello All,
Rambo2Why are they the same price? One should be cheaper no?
All things being equal- -decorated vs. undecorated- -I think a little more prototypically...
I run a freelance pike in the 1970s to 1980s. It is an independently owned coal-branch loop served by the Santa Fe.
The mine owned motive power is "patched out" second- or third-hand diesel units from the Denver & Rio Grande West, Southern Pacific, and the B&O.
My point...
I can justify a previously owned, patched out unit, with a non-native livery, that is RTR over having to wait to do the paintwork myself.
Yes, in a fair and just world undecorated should be less expensive. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Did just notice that in the latest Atlas announcement that their undecorated HO U33B locomotives are $10 less than their decorated ones. FMC undecorated boxcars are $9 less and undecorated tank cars are $10 less. Ralph
MARTIN STATION when you bought an undecorated locomotive you used to get a lot of optional parts like both dynamic/non-dynamic brake hatches, plows and footboards and other optional parts,
My Proto-2000 SD-7 was really a weird experience for me. Every undecorated model I saw said something like "SD-7 with dynamic brakes" on the box,
I did not want dynamic brakes. Finally I just went ahead and bought one, and in the box the non-dynamic hood was included in the parts pack.
I wish the box label would have let me know the parts for both options were included.
NittanyLionIf anything, I'd probably be happy if I could get more data only cars.
Data only cars work really good if they got the body color right. I have built several silver Intermountain tank cars that were data only, and they were great.
If anything, I'd probably be happy if I could get more data only cars.
Just a few minutes ago, I counted my currently in-service freight cars, and discovered that 46 of them have mostly factory paint and lettering.
I do revise BLT. and re-weigh data to suit my layout's late '30s era, and in most cases, add a few details, such as metal grabirons and sill steps, and some brake detail, when required.
All of the rest (387) have paint and lettering applied by me, and usually some added details where needed. Not very many of these cars were bought undecorated, even though I might have preferred to buy them as such.
For the majority of them, I needed to remove the factory paint, which is not only an added task, but also an added expense, but the upside is that most were bought as used (and sometimes abused) items, so for considerably less than their original cost.Adding better details, and new paint, plus lettering, also added to the cost, but still made the originals better than they had been. Doing that work also taught me a lot about materials and techniques, which in-turn builds confidence to attempt projects which may be more complex, whether involving kits or scratchbuilding. I do "get" why many like to buy r-t-r, but I struggled to afford it at one time, and now that I'm not struggling, have little interest in it, although I would buy a r-t-r model if it were especially appealing to me....I believe that I currently have two, with two more on pre-order, one of which is for a friend.I also have two r-t-r passenger cars, slightly modified, but all of the rest have been "through the shops" for details, modifications, and paint and lettering, and likewise for all of my locomotives, both steam and diesel.
I do think that in most instances, "undec" is destined to become "unavailable", but it's unlikely to affect me, as most of my remaining "needs" for rolling stock will be addressed with scratchbuilding (likely less than two dozen cars) and re-working about a dozen locomotives that have been awaiting attention for far too long.
Wayne
I don't know if it's still the case but when you bought an undecorated locomotive you used to get a lot of optional parts like both dynamic/non-dynamic brake hatches, plows and footboards and other optional parts, although Atlas and Proto (which gave you even more) would throw in plows/footboards and sunshades on most of their decorated locomotives, the undecorated ones had lots more parts that you could use on other projects.
Ralph
MisterBeasleyThe boxcars were in the bargain bin at the LHS, they were Tichys so I snapped them up not even having plans for them. They ended up as Hide Service Only cars for my tannery.
The Tichy USRA boxcars and the rebuilt versions are wonderful kits. Only where the ends meet the carbody is there any need to do a lilttle fitting.
The brake system is pretty straightforward, and they provide a few options in the box so you can have a varied fleet.
I've done a couple of boxcars, a covered hopper and two trolleys as undecorated kits. The boxcars were in the bargain bin at the LHS, they were Tichys so I snapped them up not even having plans for them. They ended up as Hide Service Only cars for my tannery. The hopper was a Bowser, used for salt delivery to the same tannery. The trolleys became part of my Moose Bay Transit Authority.
All of these got painted and custom decalled. They ended up looking nicer than Blue Box cars I've sprayed over and redecorated. Those have a place, too, but the undecorated models look nicer than having to overspray to hide unwanted paint jobs.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
My guess would be that the demand for undecorated kits is small enough to where carving out special packaging or pricing categories is more trouble than its worth for the producer. Especially since some aspects of printing, packaging, or accounting for all parts when they are loose rather than being affixed to the model may incrementally raise the costs of an undecorated model during some of the steps.
The costs even out close enough to not worry about setting the perfect price.
But I'm one of those guys who often stripped Atlas Master series and P2K locos fairly frequently, eliminating the need for undecorated models (and assembly thereof)
- Douglas
One solution is to go back in time to where wooden freight cars were the norm. Then the wood cars that are still available make sense - and almost always come as undecorated kits with decals or dry transfers thrown in.
The down side is that the plastic "train set" models of that era (1870s-1890s) were rarely made undecorated (or as kits). For $3 or so each at a train show, these cars can be gussied up into pretty nice models (for another $15+ worth of details, trucks, and couplers but we won't complain about cost), but need stripping and repainting for home road use.
Roundhouse "Old Timer" kits can still be found as new old stock, but seldom as undecorated. And because of their length and height, they are really generic models of 1900s prototypes.
just my point of view
Fred W
....modeling Coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....
OvermodThen why rant on at length
There was no rant from me in this thread.
I understand the situation and I do not expect it to change. The manufacturers know the market and have tried to support the Freelancers as best as possible.
I think I explained the options for undecorated kits well.
I also think I explained the reasons why they do not cost less (except for Kadee) equally well. We are lucky to have what is available.
I even showed the contents of a modern undecorated kit as an example of what the manufacturers need to do to make these available.
I am very thankful and appreciative to each of the manufacturers that attempt to bring a model I need to the market.
wjstixNow, with so many pieces coming from the factory with accurate, well executed paint and lettering, there's really less need to 'roll your own' unless you're one of the dying breed of freelancers (like me).
Yes, we are a dying breed that fewer people have interest in learning about.
I am glad I was able to enjoy this hobby as much as I do in the way that brings me the most enjoyment.
Part of the problem - in an odd way - is that the quality of decorated models has improved so much over the last 25 years or so. Back in the 1980s most plastic kits or RTR pieces were so poorly decorated that most "serious" modellers bought undecs and decorated them themselves. There were even companies like Bev-Bel who would buy hundreds of undec Athearn, MDC, or other manufacturer's car kits and decorate them up to a high standard for modellers who wanted a quality product without the work of decorating them themselves. Now, with so many pieces coming from the factory with accurate, well executed paint and lettering, there's really less need to 'roll your own' unless you're one of the dying breed of freelancers (like me).
I'm not a manufacturer, so I'm going to guess here.
Despite the hassles of disrupting a chain, I also think that production costs of undecorated models are likely to be lower at the unit cost. But one piece of the puzzle here is what is left on the shelves - and the costs of that. Some manufacturers might have had the unpleasant situation of having unsold stocks, that they will sell at rebate prices to clear out the warehouse. I'm betting that this risk increases with undecorated models, for which there is less demand (no offence to my colleagues). So if they consider that risk when planning production, they might compensate by increasing the margins upfront.
Simon
SeeYou190Overmod: None of what you suggested is possible. Modern marketing of electric toy trains will not support that kind of effort. I have quite a bit of information about the undecorated market from those who really are in the know.
We've had plenty of discussions in which the need for undecorated models has been brought up, sometimes repeatedly. We've also had plenty of discussions about the current state of manufacturing, some of which covered in great detail what was and wasn't possible even though much of the detail economics is supposed to be 'trade secrets'. Why reopen the worm can if there is nothing new we can contribute about a practical solution?
Personally, I continue to think a 'solution' on the marketing and distribution side continues to look something like a buyer's co-op: it assumes the responsibility for making x preorders to allow efficient production (perhaps along the manufacturing lines I suggested, unless your experience in contract manufacturing provides better alternatives) and then handles the risk of stocking and distributing the units once produced. I am well aware of the various costs and difficulties inherent in this, but until I hear something from anyone here that works better I don't think we need those 'negative waves' as it were.
Duplicate when the software went down...
OvermodWhat I do see as a possibility, though, is suggested by the pocket-watch industry: if, down the line, the 'undecorated' items don't sell, they can be reshelled with more-in-demand names, and the shells then offered to the 'aftermarket'.
Overmod: None of what you suggested is possible. Modern marketing of electric toy trains will not support that kind of effort. I have quite a bit of information about the undecorated market from those who really are in the know.
I have been in contact with manufacturers and others involved in private roadnames.
The problem is the demand, not the supply.
We are lucky to have available what is out there, and we are appreciative to Rapido for trying.
SeeYou190This is the viewpoint of a modeller that NEEDS undecorated models.
Undec modelers could then request individual 'different' detail parts if they want them ... the net traffic being something someone like Boaz Shron could probably handle on a weekend with a couple of padded envelopes...
I presume the labeling on the box ends is computer-generated and therefore 'undecorated' would be no more involved than adding another roadname to the printer controller's database. Likewise I don't see adding one more SKU or item number breaking the accounting or warehousing.
What I do see as a possibility, though, is suggested by the pocket-watch industry: if, down the line, the 'undecorated' items don't sell, they can be reshelled with more-in-demand names, and the shells then offered to the 'aftermarket'. By that point the added handwork would be from NOS warehouse type storage, not an intricate product distribution pipeline, and therefore less difficult to 'arrange'...
I had to dig out one of my current Intermountain undecorated AAR 2-bay hopper car kits:
This kit comes in the same packaging as the ready-to-run decorated models.
The box even says it is fully assembled and makes you think it should be ready to run, but it is not. There is no special packaging for the undecorated kits.
The label on the end does say it is a kit.
The inside has all the parts packaged in the same blister packing they use for the assembled ready-to-run freight cars. This does not leave adequate space for the kit parts.
The kit parts are contained in small baggies. It takes a bit of labor to account for these parts and to bag them for packaging.
The kits contains six pages of instructions. These had to be produced, and are not necessary for ready to run models.
I am very thankful that Intermountain is still supporting the high-detailed undecorated plastic kit market, and I have no problem with them costing the same.
tstagemost of my undecorated locomotives have come with the handrails, bells, horns, etc. in a plastic bag inside the box rather than on the shell - e.g. the Walthers re-release of the EMD SW1 switcher. That should cut costs for assembly.
It actually adds costs to keep the handrails seperate.
The assembly line is set up to assemble the models. It takes a lot of additional effort to make sure all the loose pieces end up in the kit box.
The last two Intermountain undecorated kits (Caswell Gondola and an Open Hopper), and the only modern Athearn undecorated kit (Airlside Hopper) I bought were all missing pieces.
It is hard to make a kit when only undecorated models will be the kits.
IIRC, most of my undecorated locomotives have come with the handrails, bells, horns, etc. in a plastic bag inside the box rather than on the shell - e.g. the Walthers re-release of the EMD SW1 switcher. That should cut costs for assembly. However, perhaps, it's still a modicum amount compared to having someone manually assemble & glue the parts and pieces to the shell.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Undec is the only way to go for rolling stock models of road names and paint schemes that are no longer produced. Sure, it involves painting and buying the correct decals, but it will get you the cars that you want, and era-specific, too.
Russ
Modeling the early '50s Erie in Paterson, NJ. Here's the link to my railroad postcard collection: https://railroadpostcards.blogspot.com/
wjstixMy pet peeve as a free-lancer is buying an undec diesel locomotive or caboose or passenger car and finding out the windows are all glued in place!
Right on!
I feel your pain.