I'm in the planning stages for a layout. My last one was in 1979. This one will be very similar, but a bit larger, instead of a 6' by 6' alcove, I'll have a 11' by 11' area in my basement. Still debating having a continuous run loop, which would surely make things easier with storage tracks or an around the room " U " shaped.
But I digress...
Here's the question, after researching car cards and way-bills, I pretty much understand that through freights may pick up and drop off cars at the interchange to my railroad and car cards would be in a bundle and dropped at the interchange while cars picked up would have their cards added to those bundles. But what of cars on the short-line? Those that do not exchange with the outside world?
I will be using log cars that are not interchanged, as well as vintage ore cars.
Do passenger cars have car cards? Way-Bills? (if they stay on the short line.)
Yea, this will be “MY” railroad and it will be a sort of tourist line with an interchange with the real world in the 60's or 70's. I will make the rules but some rules still need to be observed. The non interchange log cars will be cross loaded into gondolas that are compatible with the era. The ore cars will be used for coal and a select few will be cross loaded but in reverse a few times a year to feed the steamers. ( In other words, coal will arrive in modern or semi modern hoppers and be cross loaded into the ore cars and transferred to the coaling tower. The excess will be stored full and empty at a partially restored coal mine and breaker.)
So do the log cars need and use car cards and way-bills? Obviously yes, what about the internal movements of ore cars (Tichy 22' wood)?
Trying to just wrap my head about the functioning of car cards and way-bills, in the year one, (1978-79), I used colored thumbtacks in holes atop the cars and their loads. Much easier then.
I would love someone to give me some ideas or suggestions on this via email if possible. An email link can be found under Contact at my web site, http://kitbash.ourpage.org Thanks in advance!
Gerry
One thing to remember is the car card and waybill need to function only as instructions for the crew, as opposed to being a substitute for prototype paperwork. Use them or don't based on what type of information you want to convey about where the car goes. A car that doesn't "leave" the layout via interchange would still be going somewhere, so the CC&WB would just describe where it's headed on the layout, just as if it were gong offline.
Rob Spangler
Good advice there from Rob. I'll add in what I do, which tracks pretty closely to his take on the CC and WB as crew instructions.
For repetitive movements like logs and ore moving to the mills, I use a WB that sends the car as an MT (empty) to be loaded first. This can be done either of two ways. You can have a separate WB that is colored so it is solely for distributing MTs if you have a big enough layout with multiple destinations for the MTs. Or you can just write is as the first stop on a standard waybill.
Once the car is loaded, the next stop is indicated on the waybill. This can be on-line or off-line through your interchange (use the "Via" slot for an interchange point, with the final destination in the "To" slot.)
If it's a repeat card to the same destinations, then just fill out the one side of the 4-way WB. Or you can use the backside to treat a second destination similarly. Your choice.
For repetitive movements, some people just use the CC and mark it for the destinations. The "Return to" line can be used for the destination of MT cars bound for loading. The loaded destination can then be entered further down on the flap that holds the WB.
In the end, however you structure them so that they get cars where they need to go is good, just be consistent.
As for passenger trains, generally I don't do CCs. For some head-end cars, it does make sense, though, so again, adopt things to what will facilitate your operations.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
GerryDI will be using log cars that are not interchanged, as well as vintage ore cars
Those cars are in captive company service so no waybill would be needed because its empties to the loading site in the woods and logs to the mill. Empties to the mines and loads to the the unloading point very basic railroading.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Then one opinion would be the log cars would be a simple turn from the pick-up point to the transfer point? No CC nor WB. I dunno.
I thought a lot about this since I posted it, my conclusion is that every car, passenger or freight or MofW will need a CC, WB, now that is another story. I can see WBs for the log cars, the passenger cars, I dunno.
Are there CCs for Cabooses? One video demo I watched had CCs for the engines, or did I see something that was not there or am I calling something a horse of a different color?
Hey Gerry-
I am also just starting with car cards and waybills, and I am still trying to get my head around it. Talking it out seems to help. I've also started writing a descriptive narrative describing the procedures and that seems to help as well, but there's always more stuff to be added.
Regarding passenger trains . . . I treat them as unit trains, and therefore no car cards and no waybills. The trains are dispatched and the engineer/conductor crews drive them willy-nilly around the layout using their superior status to make up the route as they go along.
But I can envision a situation where car cards and waybills for passenger trains might be appropriate. Consider the real life, although fictional, scenario of a passenger train leaving Pittsburgh headed west. When it gets to Cincinnati and half of the train needs to continue west to St Louis and half of the train needs to turn north to Chicago, then those cars to be broken up and redirected will need some sort of instruction as to what happens.
I also consider coal drags and intermodal trains as unit trains with no CC&WBs, but I'm thinking of some way to prepare cards for small blocks of these cars. That is, one card for a block of three cars that always travel as a group. For instance, a SW1500 can pick up one or two blocks of coal porters and shuttle them around, while a single C44-9 can pick up six such blocks. A pair of Dash 9s lead by a comfort cab SD70ACe might pick up twelve blocks and highball entirely around the layout.
Still trying to work this out, but I hope it helps.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
GerryD thought a lot about this since I posted it, my conclusion is that every car, passenger or freight or MofW will need a CC, WB, now that is another story.
Passenger cars didn't need waybills/car cars because passenger trains was made up by switch list and assigned cars. Cabooses did not need a waybill or car card. They would be assigned to a train. As a example C-012 on 123 and would be on the train consist sheet.
Locomotives is assigned by the power desk by power needs. A engineer's locomotive consist sheet might read 3030 (Lead),3034 and 3502 assigned 123.
Waybills are needed for movement of empty and loaded MOW cars to a work site exception being if its a work train. A simple train consist works.
As a brakeman all I needed to know is 43221 and 65562 is to be dropped and 65660 to be picked up at 76 lumber at MP 156.9 at Hooterville per the switch list I was given.
GerryDThen one opinion would be the log cars would be a simple turn from the pick-up point to the transfer point?
True, and if you plan no chnages in the consist that require switching directions, you're good.
However, if you do anticipate changes from time to time, here's what I do. I use a small binder clip to hold the CC together for a unit train like this. The waybill is tucked into the top CC.
The rest of the cards have MT slots where the WB would be.
If you don't have or want boxes for the CC, you can also bury alternative destination WB underneath the top card and ignore it until you need it.
I also use the binder clip color to further designate things. In this case, the green is for raw forest products like logs and untreated ties. I use white for stone, like cut stone and crushed rock. I use black for hard metal ores and yellow for uranium, etc.
BRAKIE GerryD thought a lot about this since I posted it, my conclusion is that every car, passenger or freight or MofW will need a CC, WB, now that is another story. Passenger cars didn't need waybills/car cars because passenger trains was made up by switch list and assigned cars. Cabooses did not need a waybill or car card. They would be assigned to a train. As a example C-012 on 123 and would be on the train consist sheet. Locomotives is assigned by the power desk by power needs. A engineer's locomotive consist sheet might read 3030 (Lead),3034 and 3502 assigned 123. Waybills are needed for movement of empty and loaded MOW cars to a work site exception being if its a work train. A simple train consist works. As a brakeman all I needed to know is 43221 and 65562 is to be dropped and 65660 to be picked up at 76 lumber at MP 156.9 at Hooterville per the switch list I was given.
Hey Larry-
I have absolutely no experience in the 1:1 world of railroading. One of the great things about this forum is that there are many members, such as yourself, who bring real-world experience to the discussion and that knowledge is valuable.
Car cards and waybills is a made-up technique for operating model railroads in a thoughtful and somewhat realistic manner. TT&TO and formal switchlists are other techniques.
Some operators in the CC&WB system take the handful of cards they are given and prepare ad hoc on-the-fly quick-and-dirty back-of-the-envelope switchlists. Some model railroad superintendents provide blank pre-printed switchlist forms or even blank pads to help the engineer/conductor crews perform this function. But the main point of CC&WB is that you don't need to prepare switchlists, just read the cards and forward the cars as you find them. At least that is the way I understand it. I'm still working that out in my head.
ROBERT PETRICKBut I can envision a situation where car cards and waybills for passenger trains might be appropriate.
Sure they can, passenger trains have baggage, express, mail cars, sleepers, diners, etc. that may be added or removed at varius places. I pick up or set out an express car every once in a while.
ROBERT PETRICKI also consider coal drags and intermodal trains as unit trains with no CC&WBs, but I'm thinking of some way to prepare cards for small blocks of these cars.
The definition of a real unit train is more or less a block of cars all moving on the same waybill. You could have an entire unit coal or grain train traveling on one waybill, 100% prototypical.
A prototype steam era (pre 1960's) coal train technically wasn't a "unit train" because the each car in the train had its own waybill (nothing to stop anybody from making blocks of cars).
The iron or carriers went so far as to install drawbars between ore cars so they cars were physically moving together.
While cabooses and engines don't need car cards or waybills, they can be handy. The engine card can have the address and locomotive functions on it, especially handy if a consist or number other than the engine number is used to acquire the consist or engine. I have made caboose car cards and waybill sized engine cars adn then put the engine card in the waybill pocket of the caboose card. One could also put a waybill sized train stats card in the caboose pocket (Loads, empties, tons, feet) for handy reference. Lots of options for additional things you can do with the engine and caboose cards.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
ROBERT PETRICKBut the main point of CC&WB is that you don't need to prepare switchlists, just read the cards and forward the cars as you find them. At least that is the way I understand it. I'm still working that out in my head.
Exactly. A CCWB is the equivalent of a prototype waybill. Its just in two pieces to facilitate mixing things up on a model railroad without having to rewrite stuff.
I provide list forms for my crews, but out of a dozen or so op sessions, only one or two guys have used them.
Would something as simple as a wheel report suffice for passenger trains? Reporting marks and destination of each car? The only need for "tonnage" would be calculating required "horsepower per ton" for power assignment.
I have an iron mine. The train order car says: Proceed from staging with empty cars to the mine branch. Bring down any General Service cars at the mine, so the local freight can pick them up.
Swap loaded and full Ore cars. Limit of three cars at a time. Spot any General Service cars left by local freight.
Return to staging, going back over route followed out.
The Ore cars are effectively a unit train, and have no waybill. The General service cars and Car cards and waybills.
Passenger trains will have train order cars, denoting what if any cars are to be set out and picked up. One local passenger train picks up a milk car and drops it at a Cheese plant.
Hope this gives ideas.
ROBERT PETRICKCar cards and waybills is a made-up technique for operating model railroads in a thoughtful and somewhat realistic manner. TT&TO and formal switchlists are other techniques.
Robert, After reading Doug Smith's article on CC/WB in the December 1961 issue I was hook on this method of car handling since it beat using colored thump tacks!
If I may? One doesn't need to immediately start switching cars in a willy nilly manner once the local stops at a industry.
Think of switching cars at industries as a chess game. You plan your moves,work your plan and never move cars you don't need to. One needs to make every move smoothly and with purpose.
While we brakemen had a switch list to follow the conductor had the waybill(s) and would place these in a drop box-usually a mailbox on a pole at (say) 76 Lumber Hootersville.. He would later do more paper work showing these cars was delivered at 76 lumber Hootersville. If there was a empty car he could fill out a pickup order on the car and he would order us to pick that car up.
Another trick of the trade which we can emulate with CC/WB is,let's say that car we picked up at 76 was a empty C&O boxcar and should we pass a C&O interchange track that's where we would leave that boxcar. After all when empty return to C&O at nearest interchange point. OTOH let's say that boxcar read when empty return to Lansing Mich via reverse route then we would take that car to the yard.
WRT to unit trains, or multi-car blocks, and captive cars on your shortline - it can be convenient or even ideal to keep things CONSISTENT for your operators, and thus treat all the cars the same with car cards and waybills.
Unit trains or multi-car blocks can use a single waybill (usually printed on a different colour paper, or having a *slightly* different format) that indicates that clearly indicates that it's a multi-car waybill for "5 cars of logs" - the waybill goes with the first car card, and implies that the other 4 cars without waybills are travelling with it.
It's not really hard once you get into it. The first "move" of the waybill is delivering empty cars to the logging camp or ore mine, then flip to the second "move" between sessions, which is the loaded move from the camp or mine to the mill.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
Only thing to contribute is thanks for bringing up this topic. I'm interested in it. Waybills and car cards seem a very useful way for getting folks more engaged and making the layout part of the "great beyond" outside the layout.