OK... lets run this scenario from my youth... I believe around 1975 or so.
I had a few Tyco train sets to my name, and my dad built me a 4 by 8 layout in the garage. I had tyco track, cars, and a power pack.
The big problem is that those Tyco engines were garbage. The layout was frustrating.
One trip to the hobby shop on NW 13th Street in Gainesville, Florida, and dad bought an Athearn locomotive, and now all the train set problems were solved. I had a good running locomotive, and I could happily run trains on my layout.
I made the step to Model Railroader that day.
OK... a newbie gets a train set for his son today at Menard's or Hobby Lobby (I think my first train set was actually for my dad), and he wants to make an upgrade to have some fun.
He is hit with a wall of DCC, sound, code 83, code 70, code 100, Digitrax, Marklin, HOn3, and so on. All this comes up on his internet search.
Who will guide him through this mess? How will he become a model railroader and not a bewildered guy who just buys an R/C car and forgets about trains?
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190He is hit with a wall of DCC, sound, code 83, code 70, code 100, Digitrax, Marklin, HOn3, and so on. All this comes up on his internet search. Who will guide him through this mess? How will he become a model railroader and not a bewildered guy who just buys an R/C car and forgets about trains?
Kevin, Those issues is covered on you tube, MR and the modeling and how to books by Kalmbach, MR forums and other forums and face book.
The day of getting information at the LHS is over replaced by the internet.
I don't know of any gamer that buys their games at GameStop and the three R/C guys I know buys off line and they are in ther 60s.
Even my son buys his gaming figures on line.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Kevin,
Too many Ramblings follow:
I’m not sure that the old mode worked all that well ...Many of the issues that make model railroading complicated to a beginner were not really solved by the LHS. Often the owners and people in the shop had/have axes to grind and product to move. I got lots of unhelpful advice as kid in a hobby shop. BTW: I’m sure there were some shops where this wasn’t the case. Today I also see lots of questionable advice on forums and chat lists and the web in general.
Splitting up the beginners into kids and adults is a good idea. I think adults are more equipped to gather info and sort out the chaff from the wheat. They generally have more patience and the ability to understand delayed gratification. I think kids need more of an inspirational, “get trains running right now” approach to keep interest and give them some momentum. Neither group should be bombarded with too much complexity in the beginning.
I think the best help for beginners is a mentoring program that connects them to people who have a plan designed for beginners and can answer questions and guide them through the early stages. Beginners need follow-up and help when things go wrong. When I got back into the hobby some 30 years ago after the usual job/kids break in my hobby activities, it was a group of local modelers who were able to steer me in the right direction. I could ask questions and get serviceable answers from people who knew my situation.
I do think that most beginners are gonna be online for their information. The problem with online is filtering out the good from the bad, and being able to sort it all when you are a novice... For example, take the toolbox article being mentioned. While most modelers of a certain degree of involvement may need all the tools that are described, I would suggest that it would be a waste of funds for someone running a simple oval of track to go buy some of these items until they take other steps first. Why spend money on trip pin pliers when you have horn hooks? (of course if it were up to me – no one would start with horn hooks). Why have a scale ruler when you aren’t scratch building or using prototype measurements? (Not trying to diss this list, I think it is a good list that shows some intellectual rigor rather than a regurgitation of what the author might have in his/her tool box)
To adhere to the KISS method I think a good starter set is a way to go. One with snap track like the Bachmann EZ track or Marklin’s old c track would make things easy. DCC while it is complex, might be good from the wow factor point of view for kids who want to blow the whistle etc (needs to be simple)....I suppose the other question would be what train sets are quality starter sets and which ones would be good to recommend? I have no idea since those days were 55 years ago for me.
My two cents,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
trainnut1250To adhere to the KISS method I think a good starter set is a way to go. One with snap track like the Bachmann EZ track or Marklin’s old c track would make things easy. DCC while it is complex, might be good from the wow factor point of view for kids who want to blow the whistle etc (needs to be simple)...
Guy, You make a lot of excellent points.
I will address DCC the KISS method. A Bachmann EZ Command DCC system comes with a DCC/Sound locomotive with simple addressing and a youngster can ring the bell and horn. I've seen these as low as $99.00 at train shows.
First-time model train builder. Definitely following this discussion
Train guy First-time model train builder. Definitely following this discussion
to the hobby and the forum.
Feel free to ask questions.
Paul
Train guyFirst-time model train builder. Definitely following this discussion
To the Model Railroader forums. Your first few posts are delayed by moderation, but this will end after a handfull of posts. Please stick around and join us.
Asking questions is very welcome.
Yes it is harder in ways but easier too. The hobby is not in decline but it is not growing. The reasons are many but space is one, electronics can be portable, not so much a model railroad. It is also harder to get a difinative answer in model railroading, too many opinions not based on resurch. I personally found this to be daunting at times. Beaded foam is one product some of us use for scenery but I see negative info on it all the time using wrong info, one example, it shrinks, true when it is first made but by the time the stuff gets to the stores, that is pretty much done with (just googled it, takes up to 30 days).
rrebell Yes it is harder in ways but easier too. The hobby is not in decline but it is not growing. The reasons are many but space is one, electronics can be portable, not so much a model railroad.
Yes it is harder in ways but easier too. The hobby is not in decline but it is not growing. The reasons are many but space is one, electronics can be portable, not so much a model railroad.
Very true. Im sure what Im about to bring up has already been discussed, but hopefully I can add some insight.
To note, no one in my family was into trains. My parents even discouraged it do to my very limited allowance as a kid.
My first experience with trains was from a cheapo bachmann trainset my aunt bought me. It was a very simple Bachmann circle of track, with Santa Fe FTA unit. A classic.
I think trainsets are a wonderful way of getting into the hobby. I commend Bachmann for making quality yet cheap trainsets. Maybe their reputation was poor years ago, but my FTa ran for 10 years, and if it werent for the fact that I took it apart completly(dumb move), panicked, and threw it out, would still run!
Making long lasting trainsets for cheap is a perfect way to get people interested in the hobby. Bachmann has hit the nail on the head with this one. With EZ track, which can be easily taken apart and reassembled if given limited space, (sometimes)solid engines with few small parts, and a few colorful cars, along with many colorful diagrams for expansion in the back of the box, I have to thank bachmann for getting me into this hobby. Not enough other manufacturers produce starter sets. Athearn, MTH seemingly discontinued their sets, making them hard to find.
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I was talking to a few railroad club members at my college a few days ago. These are railfanners, modelers, and train sim players. A few of them expressed interest in modeling, but had their concerns. They pointed out:
1. space. especially in college, there is no where to house a layout. Maybe some EZ track may do, but its hard to start a physical layout when you're always moving. That's why they prefer train sim. Its portable.
2. price. For an engine they can only run on club layouts, paying "$200" for an engine is too much. On the other hand, they could spend $100 on train sim and get an entire train pack.
3. learning curve. From trackwork, to DCC wiring, to decoder installations, to lubricating engines, to adjusting coupler heights, to weatherings/painting/decalling, to scenery, etc. There is so much to learn, and its daunting.
These were some valid points that they made, and I thought it would be interesting to share this.
Charles
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Modeling the Santa Fe & Pennsylvania in HO
Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLb3FRqukolAtnD1khrb6lQ
Instagram (where I share projects!): https://www.instagram.com/trainman440
[deleted], duplicate post
rrebell The reasons are many but space is one, electronics can be portable, not so much a model railroad.
I think portability is a huge concern for a lot of people. When I built my Dream House, I thought I would never move again. I lived there only about two years.
My next two residences were considered temporary when I moved in, and this effected my layout designs.
The second of those residences, has become my permanent residence for my lifetime. I did not expect that.
Trainman440These were some valid points that they made, and I thought it would be interesting to share this.
Very valid points.
I remember that when I was getting "more serious" about model railroading in the early 1980s, I was told that the three things you need to be a model railroader are Space, Money, and Time.
Those address your three concerns in order.
At no time in my life, until now, have I had all three are one time. In my previous 5 layouts I have only had two (maybe only one) at a time.
Now, after decades of stick-to-it work, I am finally ready to tackle my final lifetime layout. Time has become the commodity that will run out first.
I hope this get a sticky or the moderators can provide a similar tool (besides what's on the webpage) for newer folks. Great thread folks. Keep em' coming!
This may seem silly, but order something online. Unfortunately, that's the LHS of the future. Look at different providers, what they offer, and what the hidden costs are.
Yes, you need to learn about shipping delays, bogus or non-existent tracking data, and dealing with lost items. Get it over with, and understand that you don't have it until it's in your hands.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Interesting item about hooking people whith cheap but good starting items, knew a few that got snagged into ON30 that way, they got me into DCC sound. Trainworld is great in that respect, they clearance out stuff for cheap and if you like it, you are starting to look up the food chain, I know I am.
SeeYou190 But... I DO NOT have a scale rule...
But... I DO NOT have a scale rule...
What? I have several in various lengths and scales. I use them literally all the time. To me, they are a very important part of my tool arsenal.
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
York1 IRONROOSTER I think the biggest hurdle is that the local stores don't sell trains. It used to be that any store that carried toys had electric trains. I remember buying trains in small toy stores in the local shopping center as well as local hobby stores. Your post reminded me of my first contact with model trains. I remember seeing the train in the window of a department store downtown at Christmas. That probably doesn't happen much anymore.
IRONROOSTER I think the biggest hurdle is that the local stores don't sell trains. It used to be that any store that carried toys had electric trains. I remember buying trains in small toy stores in the local shopping center as well as local hobby stores.
Your post reminded me of my first contact with model trains. I remember seeing the train in the window of a department store downtown at Christmas.
That probably doesn't happen much anymore.
In the mid 1970's, Woolworth's on 3rd street in Grand Island was my go to place for AHM structure kits and some freight cars. And of all places, Miller's Appliances 2 blocks down on 3rd street sold the better stuff, Athearn BB locomotives and car kits, using one aisle near the cash register.
No, I don't think this happens any more.
- Douglas
I just got an email from MR telling me to "See what your toolbox is missing". Coincidence? Hmmm...
After a lifetime of British Model Railways, when I first became interested in USA Railroads, I subscribed to MRR and a year later, I added MRVP and All-Time Digital Archives to my subs.
I would recomend both of these to any Newbie, since I was in a sense, starting over myself and believe me, the whole concept and approach to USA MRR's is totaly different to BR MR's - as are the prototypes.
The vids on Project Railroads to basic Track-laying to Baseboard design & construction - are all worthy, IMO.
The search engine in Digi-Archives works a treat and you can search for most anything to help you, from previous articles. Plus if you read thru some of the 'vintage' copies, the efforts of Modellers from years gone by, using what they had back then and their achievments, I find inspiring. Paul
"It's the South Shore Line, Jim - but not as we know it".
"Hurdles to a newcomer getting started"
Money. Lot's of money!
Just kidding. But if they look at prices these days, they have to get over the sticker shock; but lots of hobbies are like that. They just have to decide if they are nutty enough about trains to pay todays prices! Then there is always fleabay and hopefully someday again, train shows.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
trwroute SeeYou190 But... I DO NOT have a scale rule... What? I have several in various lengths and scales. I use them literally all the time. To me, they are a very important part of my tool arsenal.
I am not a real model railroader and even I have a scale rule!
Lotta of opinions on this thread. Here are mine. To get into the hobby of model railroading step one is to get a train to run. You need somewhere to lay your track, you need 18 inch radius curves for HO. You need a power pack and a known good (aka brand new) locomotive, a car or two or three and perhaps a caboose. Hook the power pack to the rails, put the locomotive on the rails, hit the throttle and it ought to run. If it doesn't post here, post some photos, and someone will give you advice.
Watch your train run, enjoy it. Read Model Railroader or Rail Model Craftsman to pick up the lingo and see some idea of what you can do.
Step 2 is the build something, a structure kit, a rolling stock kit, anything. Paint something.
Step 3 go to a train show, bring some bucks, bring something back from the show. Take some pictures. Be aware that train show stuff usually needs some repairs. I would wait until I had some skills before buying off train shows or E-bay.
Good luck, have fun, post here and let us know how you are doing.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
trwrouteWhat? I have several in various lengths and scales. I use them literally all the time. To me, they are a very important part of my tool arsenal.
Chuck,
I always have my Mitutoyu Dial Caliper on my desk, easily accuarate to 0.001" resolution. I just became used to converting scale measurements into one-thousandth of an inch measurements and using the caliper.
Just a different technique that I am comfortable with.
riogrande5761I am not a real model railroader and even I have a scale rule!
We can just add this one to the growing list of reasons why I will never be considered a real model railroader.
Oh well.
dstarrYou need somewhere to lay your track, you need 18 inch radius curves for HO.
If you are pinched for space you can run small locomotives and cars on 15" curves. I have run my 4-4-0 with 36' ft cars on Atlas 15" curves.
I did a basic starter HO in the 1980s and switched to a more complex N scale in the 90's. Mostly low end Bachman trainset quality because I could run 5 trains- 2 on the upper 2 track main lines and 2 on the lower track 2 track main and one in the Steamtown Bellows Falls yard that I built from an MR article. Added some Atlas Kato locomotives-- SD 9 and RS 3, U-25 an E 8 and a Lifelike FA A and B units and a couple of Bacmann 2-6-0 so I can run steam when it suits me. All PRR, Reading, Lehigh Valley and. C & O which are common to my East Penn orientation. All reasonably priced. Less than $60 per unit. I put them all away around 2002 when we converted the basement as a living space for my son when he came home for grad school. Moved to our new house in 2008 and started over again. So I pulled out all of the old Bachmanns, Lifelikes, Katos, and Atlas locos, hooked up my MRC Tech 2s, and was pleased that all still ran after almost 20 years. Point being you can get a lot of enjoyment for a long time with lower end or used gear and upgrade with the higher end super detail if that floats your boat. I've had great luck with Bachmann and Lifelike.and have great appreciation for the affordability of entry level units.
Lazers After a lifetime of British Model Railways, when I first became interested in USA Railroads, I subscribed to MRR and a year later, I added MRVP and All-Time Digital Archives to my subs. I would recomend both of these to any Newbie, since I was in a sense, starting over myself and believe me, the whole concept and approach to USA MRR's is totaly different to BR MR's - as are the prototypes. The vids on Project Railroads to basic Track-laying to Baseboard design & construction - are all worthy, IMO. The search engine in Digi-Archives works a treat and you can search for most anything to help you, from previous articles. Plus if you read thru some of the 'vintage' copies, the efforts of Modellers from years gone by, using what they had back then and their achievments, I find inspiring. Paul
IRONROOSTER dstarr You need somewhere to lay your track, you need 18 inch radius curves for HO. If you are pinched for space you can run small locomotives and cars on 15" curves. I have run my 4-4-0 with 36' ft cars on Atlas 15" curves. Paul
dstarr You need somewhere to lay your track, you need 18 inch radius curves for HO.
You can do that, and a lotta stuff will run on a 15 inch curve. Some stuff won't. 18 inches is the HO industry standard, all the makers bend over backwards to get their stuff to run on 18 inches. None of them advertises or admits to running on anything less than 18 inches. The few makers with long rolling stock that needs more than 18 inches will mark the package with the required minimum radius, 22 inches or 34 inches or whatever. Some makers are dumb and don't mark the box with the required minimum radius. This just leads to unhappy customers. There is nothing the LHS can say to the customer to make him happy. Even refunding his money won't make him happy, he wanted that piece of rolling stock to run on his layout.
The real meaning of minimum radius, is the size of layout benchwork required to make a 180 degree turn. 18 inch radius requires 36 inches (plus an extra inch or two) to do a 180 turn. 15 inches drops that down to 30 inches (plus an extra inch or two) Most of us want the main line to be a loop so that we can watch a train do several turns about the main line before hitting the yard or stopping at a station, or dropping and picking up freight cars off of sidings.
dstarr Lotta of opinions on this thread. Here are mine. To get into the hobby of model railroading step one is to get a train to run. You need somewhere to lay your track, you need 18 inch radius curves for HO. Step 3 go to a train show, bring some bucks..
Lotta of opinions on this thread. Here are mine. To get into the hobby of model railroading step one is to get a train to run. You need somewhere to lay your track, you need 18 inch radius curves for HO.
Step 3 go to a train show, bring some bucks..
What is this train show you speak of?
Step 4, bring home a model and find out it requires a minimum radius of 22" and you bought 18 inch curves!
riogrande5761 dstarr Lotta of opinions on this thread. Here are mine. To get into the hobby of model railroading step one is to get a train to run. You need somewhere to lay your track, you need 18 inch radius curves for HO. Step 3 go to a train show, bring some bucks.. What is this train show you speak of? Step 4, bring home a model and find out it requires a minimum radius of 22" and you bought 18 inch curves!
Well, I got to admit that the Corona virus has thinned out the train shows. But, North Shore MRR club is having one in Wakefield, MA, next Saturday, 3 October. Nur Shrine Center is having a show in New Castle Delaware the same day. There may be life after Corona virus.
As for the rolling stock that needs more than 18 inches, what can I say? If you have the room, go with 24 or 32 inch curves. Many of us don't have the room. And, most (not all, but most) HO rolling stock will handle an 18 inch curve. The most troublesome rolling stock are the full length (80 foot) passenger cars. And maybe the big auto racks and the 85 foot boxcars. Stick with the 40 and 50 foot freight cars.
Another thing that they fail to tell you is to run a test engine on your layout that is the one that takes the most clearance, I have a doodlebug for mine. In fact I just used it yesterday on my new yard that was coming online, discovered a grownd throw too close to the track.
Although 18"R has been the HO standard for some time, it seems like I see more and more catalog listings and such advising "recommended for 22 inch radius or larger". A problem you get into is a big engine like an SD-70 or AC-4400 might itself go through an 18"R curve, but have trouble when coupled to a train - especially a string of 55' or 60' cars.