There are a few HO scale locomotives that have been done by Broadway Limited I have discovered that thanks to them I have come to realize I like and a facination with them that I would like to own them for my own model railroading goals, a few examples being their Baldin Centipede Diesels, PRR Q2, PRR T1, C&O T1 and the NYC Hudson.I saw in a facebook post on a modler railroading group comparing the smokebox front cover bewteen a paragon 2 version and paragon 3 version done by BLI. It seems the paragon 3 version looked better because of better or new tooling compared to the paragon 2 version.I have to ask then, if when looking for a locomotive you want such as I am if its best to look for the most recently tooled/released version by said manaufacturer? I want to aim for the locomotives I just mentioned to look for them in Paragon 3 as I feel their tooling and detail is the best and most recent. The NYC hudson I researched was only released in their very early QSI long ago in 2002, but I see its still looks good detail wise. The locomotives I see I want are always in Paragon 2 in the red box, so I will have to search for a while to find what I want in the black Paragon 3 box. However, are Paragon 2 tooling versoons still good detail wise? What am I overlooking?
You've never heard of Ebay? It wouldn't exist if it weren't for a lot of older stuff needing a new home and people wanting exactly that. Pick what you want...
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
You are overlooking the reason you are shopping for used locomotives rather than new locomotives with a maker's guarantee. That reason is price. I will buy any locomotive that I like the looks of and that runs. If it doesn't run it's a parts loco, and parts locos are cheaper than running used locomotives. I have bought some beat up locomotives to serve as the basis of projects, added details, neodynium motor magnets, working headlights, more weight. I will buy locomotives in need of work so long as I think I can do the work myself.
To sum up. If it looks right, and you want it, and it runs, and the price is right, buy it and be happy with it.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
If it looks good, and the price of version 2 takes a nosedive because the vendor releases version 3 - I'll take version 2 and pocket the difference all day long.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Your decision might also be influenced by one particular issue. An example is the relatively late Athearn move to LED (vs. bulb) lighting. That would be worth some $ to me, all else being equal.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
It was my impression that there were very few externally-visible tooling changes between Paragon 'versions', perhaps associated only with adding lights for additional features. The "Paragon" version number refers much more to the internal electronics in the locomotive than to its exterior appearance.
As noted, there are two considerations here. First, if the additional functional features of a later Paragon version (like the sound output down to 20Hz in Paragon 3 that is only audible via an external subwoofer arrangement) are important enough to justify the price difference to you, then do the 'latest and greatest' ... but in my opinion, only if. Second, some of the earlier attempts at decoders and control electronics were squirrelly by modern standards (the problem in my opinion was far worse in O scale) and may require extensive work with what may be unobtanium parts and samizdat documentation -- this not at all helped by Kalmbach's steadfast IT refusal to fix the utility for searching prior threads on these issues.
There have been some reviews describing appearance and construction changes to 'newer' versions of BLI locomotives when they came out. Barring the ability to find and see them, you might want to post specific examples and have people here give specific advice ... some have already done so in this thread.
IIRC, the NYC Hudsons were BLI's very first release into the market with their original Paragon series. They have re-released them several times since then - including the Dreyfuss Hudson which came out in 2010. I have a Paragon 2 Hudson and it runs quite well and looks great. I don't think the detailing has changed much over that time but I don't believe BLI is still using the same molds that they used with the original Paragons.
Given the complaints about the Paragon 3 decoders, I would opt for a Paragon 2s anytime...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Concerning BLI, they made many runs of their locos...
Here are all the upgrades over each run
paragon - QSI sound, bulbs, arguably, louder motor(IIRC, due to the QSI decoders...PWM)
Powerhouse - basically paragon.
paragon 2(my fav) - their own sound(my preference), newer paint, LEDs, smoke, darkened drive rods
Blue line - Basically paragon 2 but without smoke, and a sound only decoder. Sounds similar to paragon 2.
paragon 3 - new decoder(infamous for being faulty), darkened pilot wheels, painted axle tips on driver wheels, cab figures(?)...all minor upgrades, not worth the extra cost imo.
Obviously, as BLI continued releasing new models, the detail became better. But given the same model, but a newer/updated version(say paragon PRR M1 vs paragon 2 PRR M1 vs Paragon 3 PRR M1) have no differences in newer shell castings, or mech, just features mentioned above.
There are exceptions, their first engine ever(paragon NYC J1e), technically a paragon, but had a bad driver system, and was completely retooled. That's why there are TWO types of paragon NYC J1e. Also, their newest Paragon 3 big boy has the smoking whistle gimmick and depleting coal load. But otherwise, I believe the shell is identical to their Blue Line Big Boy.
Generally, if you like their sound, get a paragon 2. If you plan to replace the decoder, get a paragon.
Here's a little more info on the first run vs second run of the J1e...
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/281000.aspx
It is odd that certain models only had one run(unfortunate), such as the infamous Paragon 2 SP GS-4, or rare Paragon 2 PRR Q-2. I hope they bring these back.
Hope this helps,
Charles
EDIT: I stand corrected on the BEMF issue. Edited.
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Modeling the Santa Fe & Pennsylvania in HO
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dstarr You are overlooking the reason you are shopping for used locomotives rather than new locomotives with a maker's guarantee. That reason is price. I will buy any locomotive that I like the looks of and that runs. If it doesn't run it's a parts loco, and parts locos are cheaper than running used locomotives. I have bought some beat up locomotives to serve as the basis of projects, added details, neodynium motor magnets, working headlights, more weight. I will buy locomotives in need of work so long as I think I can do the work myself. To sum up. If it looks right, and you want it, and it runs, and the price is right, buy it and be happy with it.
I agree with David's post/logic. I've gotten many a good deal on used locos both running and not running. I'm the same way, I'll buy fixer-upper locos if I believe I can do the work myself, and also if I have access to the parts I may need, be it parts that I have on hand, or parts that are attainable for a reasonable price. For me personally, the only way I can justify springing for the latest version of a loco is if there is a great improvement in performance and/or reliability. A good example of this would be something like the early pancake motor version of Bachmann's GS4, and their latest version with a flywheel equipped can motor and all wheel pickup. Ultimately, however, I'd say the decision comes down to personal preference, and budget.
Note that the LED installed on the first run BLI's PRR Q2 is a high color temperature blue tint model instead of a warm white one. If you want a more accurate model, buy the second run. I heard that BLI wanted to release another run of PRR Q2 around 2018, but I think it is not going to happen in the near future due to current events.
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
I would take the Paragon2 over the 3 any day. Blue line has a odd programming issue if you run DCC. (Work around is possible.)
Other used locomotives, it depends on the brand.
Athearn, BlueBox is older, less detailed, but is often much cheaper than RTR, the first of which were siply BB models which were pre-assembled with a few extra details. If you don't mind the missing extra details, or can add them yourself, BB is the way to go.
Genesis I would opt for late runs, if available, after they switched to LED.
Atlas, either of the runs would do. (Each has their own quirks to get around. If you know them, no problem either way.)
Bachmann, anything in the last dozen or so years is better than before that. Nothing with the pancake style motor for me.
Some only have one run. (Bowser Premium Alco C430 comes to mind. Only the first run was ever done.)
Some paint schemes are also only available in one run. (Atlas Alco C425 shortline schemes come to mind here.)
Again, it depends on what brand, and what particular model I am after.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
Similar question, just different manufacturers:
I am a sucker for Santa Fe's early Geeps in black with zebra stripes. If you want to be prototypical, a freight train needs several of them. Thus, I acquired 6 P2K geeps (3 GP7, 3 GP9) which are pretty well detailed and affordable on eBay, with road-number-specific absence or presence of dynamic brakes. I fixed the cracked gears (if necessary), converted them to DCC, and was happy. Then Athern Genesis came out with their version, with superb detailing and a correcponding price sticker. Putting them in a consist with the P2K geeps would highlight the latters' (relative) shortcomings in details. Thus, I decided to focus on version not produced by P2K, like those with a steam generator for passenger trains (here in Lubbock, when the usual E8Am was not available, the Lubbock-Amarillo local was handled by a steam-generator-equipped GP7).
However, at that point some geep versions were still missing (or only obtainable in "old" brass). Then Walthers came out with a GP7 with "torpedo tubes" (roof-mounted air cylinders), which filled one gap; the tooling appears to be improved over the P2K geeps. Finally, a month or two ago Athearn announced that they will produce the cab-less GP7B (The Santa Fe was the only railroad which purchased GP7B units, a total of 5; all other cab-less geeps were GP9s.) I pre-ordered it - it should arrive some time next spring.
ricktrains4824Bachmann, anything in the last dozen or so years is better than before that. Nothing with the pancake style motor for me.
Rick, Not so long ago I would have laugh at the idea of me buying anything Bachmann made.
On a whim I took a chance on a DCC equipped GE 70 and was quite pleased with it then I bought their DCC/Sound Alco S-4 when it was first released and found it to be a smooth runner but,with a overly loud tubrocharger. With the sound muted it runs as smooth and quiet as a Atlas/Roco S-4.
The GE 70T is long dead due to crack gears and me dropping the shell..The S-4 is still going strong.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
If you're going to replace the decoder - might as well get a Blueline then and save some money.
BEMF isn't what makes the motor run quieter, it's high frequency PWM, which the QSI decoders have. They also fixed the BEMF with upgrade chips that were available after the legal action with MTH was settled. Good luck finding an upgrade chip these days if the loco still has the original. I have an Atlas Trainmaster with QSI and it does have BEMF, came that way, I didn't change anything. This loco came out later than the initial BLI offerings.
rrinkerBEMF isn't what makes the motor run quieter, it's high frequency PWM, which the QSI decoders have.
For the record, back EMF (electromotive force) is the technique used to estimate permag-motor rotational speed (and hence proportional locomotive track speed) without a speed sensor of some kind on the motor. If someone can provide cites for the legal discussions of the MTH suit that involved this, I could get a better handle on what's actually 'in' or 'out of' the way the earlier chips would do back-EMF sensing and calculate forward voltage to give CV-adjustable proportional speed.
As Randy noted, high-frequency PWM (pulse-width modulation) is for actually achieving motor speed and torque with minimal noise. Note that accounting for motor cogging tendency at low speed with PWM implies a frequency change dependent on physical armature angular position -- traditionally something derived from a physical encoder on the motor. Deriving effective armature, or more precisely relative pole position, from back EMF is an interesting -- and high-speed high-frequency -- calculation-based 'thing'. To provide it in consumer electronics in model trains is an achievement deserving better recognition. The person or people who recognized the opportunity and built the solution also deserve respect... whoever they might have been.