Questions about brass locos

[GP025]

Hi All, 

 Hope everyone is doing well. 

  I have aquired a few unpainted brass locos, and being without a layout I figured I would tweek on them a bit, and I have several questions for those more knowledgeable than I- 

Adding weight- what is the best way to add weight for balancing? Just epoxying lead shot? (seems messy) or building some kind of containment box and affixing that somehow. 

Springs- I have read many articles about changing out the driver springs. Is this really required? Does it actually help?

Lights- obviously now is the time to add them. Would 3mm leds work best, or 1.5 incandescent bulbs look better? What about lenses? Needed?

Painting- most of the cabs don't come off without unsoldering them, what's the best way to get the inside of the cab?

Do most of you disassemble the valve train to paint the frame?

 Unfortunately I am not a simple engine black kinda guy, I have to do the Glacier Park scheme of the GN, now I see why custom painters get the prices they do.

 Alot of questions, and there are more, but this is probably good for now. 

Kevin 

 

[oldline1]

Kevin,

There are many ways to add weight to locomotives. I use A-Line stick on weights as well as bird shot affixed with epoxy, Elmers glue or instant glue depending on the location and thickness of the weight installed. Try to keep the weight evenly distributed so the drivers all have the same weight distribution otherwise tracking, and pulling can be jeopardized.

I find changing springs isn't always necessary. Some engines come with very hard or very soft springs and need help for better traction and stability. I've had them so soft the engine wobbled going through turnouts and looked like it was going to flip off the track. Adding weight will affect the springing too so watch what you're doing adding the weight. Some modelers have made this a serious science project and I'm sure they will respond too.

I haven't delved into LED lighting yet. I usually use PFM Minibulbs or Miniatronics 1.5V bulbs.

Older models generally had soldered on cabs which makes interior painting difficult as you figured out. It takes finesse to paint in every corner and is just a matter of experience. I always use an airbrush.

When I paint brass I totally disassemble everything. I remove every screw so I can properly clean things. It's not difficult to work with brass. If you aren't very familiar then make notes of things and the order they are assembled, especially siderods. Make drawings, take notes and even tape the screws to the drawing to make sure they go back correctly. Even keep your camera handy and take pictures of the process.

I understand you affinity for the multicolored paint jobs. They certainly are attractive! The GN Glacier Park scheme is particularly appealing to me too.

Good luck!

oldline1

 

[dstarr]

Weight.  More is better.  I have used sheet lead in the past.  Building supply and lumber yards sell it for flashing on roofs.  Cuts easily with tin snips.  Cerrobend is a low temp alloy that melts in boiling water.  It's kind of expensive but you can just melt it and pour it into the boiler.  You want to center up the weight so the locomotive balances somewhere near the middle drivers.

I read those article about respringing the sprung drivers with softer springs too.  I have a number of steamers, including a brass one, that run just fine with no springs at all.  Axle bearings rigidly attached to the frame.  I think the models with sprung drivers will run just fine on factory springs.

Lights.  I like real incandescent lamps.  The color is more realistic.  The LEDs are too blue.  Remember the prototypes all used incandescent headlamps.  LEDs need a full wave bridge rectifier to give 'em DC, incandescents don't care.  Incandescents work with that simple four diode constant brightness circuit. 

I would not bother to remove the cabs.  I would paint the inside with a rattle can spraying in from the rear.  I think they painted steam cab interiors in a medium gray green as the best compromise between lightening the cab interior so the crew could see what they were doing and not looking too shabby with all the coal smoke and soot in the air. I might brush paint the gauges and some other stuff.

  I don't take factory  valve gear apart, getting it back together is too difficult.  I would just remove the boiler and cab assembly and paint them.  Keeps the paint out of the motor and gears. And I like my valve gear and rods bright and shiny. 

   I have seen photos of steam locomotives with fancy bright paiont jobs.  Don't ever remember seeing one in real life except maybe some crack Canadian steamers running in and out of Montreal many many years ago.  All the ones I remember seeing (or riding behind) south of the Canadian border were black.  I paint my steamers with dark gray auto primer, looks better to my eye than real engine black under layout lighting.

  The older brass has a reputation for poor running.  The one piece of brass that came to me was so bad the motor was running hot.  I fixed that by replacing the old Alnico motor magnet with neodynium supermagnets.  I would get them running to your satisfaction before doing details and lights and paint. 

[mlehman]

For adding weight, there are lots of options. Lead shot in epoxy works well, but can be hard to control. However, you can make a small mold and cast the whole mess together, then insert in the requisite space. You need not even remove the mold, which epoxy will make difficult.

I tend to use lots of titanium putty. This stuff is nice and heavy, is easy to shape and sticks where you put it. Woodland Scenics has a pine wood derby parts line that has it. Derby Worx stuff is also good. Beware the Hobby Lobby Derby Car Supply-branded stuff, as it will sag and not hold if you stick it under something like I often do.

I have experimented with respringing some of my brass. Check first to see if it's easy to lift a single driver off the rail with a probe or pair or tweezers, If they all are able to do that without lifting the engine, too, then you're probably good.

On the other hand, especially if it's the driven axle (the one with the gear the motor drives), if you don't find any or very little give, then your loco could probably benefit from lighter springs. It's not necessary to do all the axles, but you want the drivers to follow the track closely, up and down.

For lights, some do prefer lamps. But lampsw burn out and if you go to a lot of trouble to install them , as will be likely, then you'll not look forward to a do-over. LEDs solve that issue, pretty much. And they make it possible to get some very realistic looks inside the lamps, because you can drill a tiny hole and insert the tiny ones into the headlight casing roughly where they would be if 1:1 scale. Add a silvered MV lens with it center backing filed off and you get something like this.

As for the color of LEDs, you have lots of choices. You actually want one with some yellow in it for an old loco like 375. For modern diesel, something more like daylight (5000 K) will look better. They can be had cheap from China with the leads already solderedf on.                       

I'd recommend against diassembling the valve gear. Sometimes it's riveted and that's a pretty touchy thing to get it back to factory, even if the proper rivets can be found. People often run the loco slowly as they paint lightly around the running gear, which is one solution.

If you're looking for that grimy well-used look, many use something called NeoLube to coat the rods, etc. Be cautious with it, as it's conducive and you don't want to let it compromise the insulation in the drivers, for example.

[GP025]

Thanks for the replies gentlemen, 

 I agree about not taking the valve gear apart, definitely not something I'm willing to deal with. 

 My first candidate is my P-2 mountain, she runs good with the factory cannon motor, but more importantly is the fact she has the cleanest boiler  (less stuff hanging off of it to mask!). 

 Kevin 

[PRR8259]

There are brass model train groups over on Facebook, including one dedicated to painting and repairing, and one dedicated just even to PFM sound.  I seriously suggest you join a few of them.  Also, they buy and sell brass at better prices for better stuff than you might get on Ebay.  The people are also very nice; it is very drama free unlike some other train forums out there.

I absolutely hate Facebook, but the pro painters who paint brass are on there along with people who can rebuild, light, and fix just about anything, and they post pictures and videos of how to do stuff.  Also, many knowledgeable collectors are on the same groups.  You can ask if somebody has something such and such for sale--and you have a good chance of finding it.

For example, Hal Maynard offers this tip about painting Glacier Park scheme:

Many painters assume they have to remove the domes to paint them black.  He does NOT.  Instead he uses a red sable brush, and dips it in thinner before dipping it into the Scalecoat Black.  Then he smoothly and carefully makes one pass with the brush around the dome without stopping.  The Scalecoat paint combined with dipping into thinner first will allow you not to leave any brush marks on your dome.  I am not a painter, but Hal posted this over on Facebook regarding doing the Glacier Park paint scheme.

I own two Glacier Park models painted and modified by Hal (new gearboxes, motors, etc.) and I can attest to his paint technique working well.

All kinds of information is over on Facebook, including information regarding which axle bearings should be replaced on brass steam models and why (which ones fail), etc.

Respectfully submitted--

John Mock

[SeeYou190]

Weight: I buy 1/32" sheet lead on eBay, and mush it into anywhere it will fit. I am not a fan of the "boiler wieghts" that come with brass locomotives.

Paint: I disassemble everything, and paint it all seperately.

Springing: I use the different springs from Northwest Short Line, and follow their instructions for choosing them.

Motors: I use the stock can motors, or repower older units with open frame motors. I replace the drive couplings with NSWL universals and epoxy the motor so the shaft is in parallel plane with the gearbox input.

-Kevin

[Paul3]

GP025,

Adding weight - The most important part of adding weight is making sure it's balanced over the driver wheelbase.  Take three identical engines that all weigh the same.  If you set them up so that the first is nose heavy, the second is tail heavy, and the third is balanced, the balance engine will pull more.  So always balance your steamers when adding weight.

As for weights, I prefer lead sheet flashing, though I have poured lead into copper tubing couplings to make my own boiler weights.  The lead sheets are great because you can bend them like a hot dog bun, stick them into the boiler (right over the drivers if needed) and then spread and press them into the underside of the boiler.  All the detail parts sticking through the shell helps the lead stay in place, and more layers can be added. A little 5-min. epoxy will hold them if they rattle. Just wear rubber gloves when handling lead.

Springs - The driver springs are there for electrical contact only.  That they provide any suspension is an accident rather than by design.  The important thing is that all drivers are level and square.  Put the engine on a sheet of glass, then take a piece of paper and try to slide it under each driver.  It should take an equal amount of force to so do for each wheel.  If the paper just slides under some wheels, you've got problems.  If it slides under some wheels with effort but won't slide under another, you've got problems.  You may have to shim the journal.

Lights - To me, bulbs always look better, but they will burn out eventually.  When I use them, I always make them a little dim (less than 1.5v) so they last longer.  LED's have come a long way in how they look, but they need a lens.  Because while they look good when they are on, they look bad when unlit.  BTW, I use pre-wired SMD LED's for my headlights; they have the magnet wire leads.

Cabs - I have to say I haven't painted the inside of my cabs with another color other than black.  Just lazy, I guess.

Valve Gear - No, I do not take apart my valve gear for painting.  I put light oil on all joints and wheel treads before priming (I use Tamiya these days), then paint.  Then I clean any places that need it after the paint dries, and re-apply paint where needed.  I've found it much less work to do that vs. taking it all apart and then putting it back together.

BTW, one other trick for tunig steam is to put it upside down in a cradle with the bottom cover plate off over the drivers.  Run the engine with a DC powerpack with an amp meter attached.  As it's running, try inserting brass shims between each journal and the chassis and watch the amp meter.  You should see amps go up and down as the wheels go in and out of square.  What you're looking for is the lowest amp reading you can get.  Loco speed should also increase because when the drivers are running square, they'll use less power to overcome friction.

dstarr,
More weight isn't always better.  It adds more wear and tear to all moving parts, slows down the top speed, and can actually decrease pulling power if one adds too much.

[SeeYou190]

Cab Interiors: Honestly, mine are just black, and that is fine.

Lights: I do not use them. MV lenses look great to me. Less stuff to break or require maintenance.

-Kevin

[snjroy]

I test the loco to see if it needs weight. I own a few brass engines and none required extra weight for my purposes. If I need more power, I double-head two or three locos. There is such thing as putting too much weight on an engine and creating over-heating situations.

I don't dissassemble the linkages and valve gear either.

Simon

[doctorwayne]

I generally add weight to all of my locomotives, whether steam or diesel and whether brass or plastic, as my layout has lots of grades and lots of curves, most occurring in the same locations.

My preference is to cast the weights in lead, using easy-to-make moulds, as shown HERE.  There's also some more extreme measures HERE, and some fairly simple ideas HERE.

On this one I also used lead filings. set with a generous application of ca.

I've changed springs on one brass 2-6-0, swapping-out too-stiff ones for what turned out to be too-soft ones, so re-installed the originals, and added a little more weight to the loco.  I always add weight to the tenders, too, as the links above show.

I don't normally add lighting, as in the late '30s in which my layout is set, lights were not required in daytime operations.  I don't run night operations (and not because of the lack of lights), but rather due to the fact that I've put a lot of effort into making a decent-looking layout, and I enjoy being able to see it, whether the trains are running or not.  I do use MV Products lenses in all of my locomotives, though, and the A-5 switcher shown in the fourth link, does have LEDs in the MV lenses, as it was done for a friend, whose layout is DCC.  Mine is DC only.

I seldom paint cab interiors with the usual prototypical green unless they're readily accessible, and many brass ones, especially the more detailed versions, are not.  Usually, it's enough of a struggle to add window "glass", and perhaps an engineer and fireman.

I usually take the boiler/cab assemble off the running gear, and often drop the drivers in order to paint the frame.  I initially use a brush for this work, painting all visible parts of the frame, rods valve gear and wheels, especially the drivers' spokes.
I then re-assemble the running gear, and with the motor either removed or hooked-up with jumper wires, airbrush the entire assembly with the drivers turning, to get even coverage..  If I'm painting a steam locomotive, again whether brass or plastic, and it's not one with a colourful paint scheme, I usually use five different versions of black, and several different clear overcoats, varying from high gloss to dead flat. 
Most of the painting is done with an airbrush and usually no masking, but I also use a brush to highlight (colour-wise or clear finish) on appliances, such as feedwater systems and various piping.
I have painted, many years ago, for a nearby hobbyshop, but never got  the prices that most custom painters command, mainly because I never realised the amount that most charged....for me, painting was easy,  and I never saw a need to gouge fellow modellers. 

Pretty well everything on my layout, including structures, locomotives, and rolling stock is custom painted by me, and I still do painting and detail work for several close friends.

Wayne

[doctorwayne]

No disrespect intended to either the OP or the previous responders, but my reply, above, took over an hour to create, due to Forum outages.  In that time, the OP’s original post was automatically  inserted into the already-typed portion of my response not just once, but twice.

I had intended to add a little more information and a couple of pictures, but cannot justify the idle time when things here are not working properly, and if I happen to run into this again, I’ll be looking for a parachute.  Feel free to cheer.



Hopefully, things will improve, and I’ll be back.

Wayne

[garya]

I just got my first brass steam locomotive, a 4-4-0, and a brass caboose.  Not to hijack this thread, but I have some related questions:

A sander line seems to have come loose.  Should I solder back in position, or will epoxy/CA work well enough?

The 4-4-0 runs a little jerky at slow speed, in both directions.  I'm guessing the drivetrain/gearbox needs some attention.  Do most people replace gearboxes, or should I just try breaking it in first?

It looks like there's a clear coat or varnish on both items. Should I soak in lacquer thinner to remove that?  

 

[gregc]

mlehman

I tend to use lots of titanium putty.

do you mean tungsten (19.3 g/cm^3).   titanium is just 4.5 g/cm^3

[Overmod]

This would be a very good time to bring up the fact that some brass engines are, in fact, brass-painted engines, in whole or in part, and stripping them may give unexpected (and probably a little unpleasant) results.  The locomotive at the bottom of Gary's post appears to be such a thing.

There are threads and threads about how best to prep a painted or lacquered engine for painting. The ideal thing would be to clean it, etch the metal slightly for 'tooth' where it should not stay shiny, and use a good compatible primer for 'whatever' the final paint would be.  Neither the etch nor the paint chemicals should damage solder even slightly, though... and there are other things to watch out for.  
 
Keep in mind also that much of the collector value for brass is likely to go away if the 'factory' finish is stripped, and eBay is full of "hobbiest" painted engines that fetch below their worth...

[Overmod]

gregc

do you mean tungsten

I assumed he meant fishing-rig putty (which is tungsten-loaded).  It is usually expensive compared to lead but considered non-toxic.

I've seen it sold as overpriced 'Pine Car' tuning stuff, in case you don't have access to some sort of angling supply store.  If you think model railroading is bad ... try the bass-fishing hobby.

[garya]

doctorwayne

I had intended to add a little more information and a couple of pictures, but cannot justify the idle time when things here are not working properly, and if I happen to run into this again, I’ll be looking for a parachute. 

say it ain't so!

[Mark R.]

I'll comment on the lighting .... For steam engines and early single light diesels, I really like the inverted cone warm white LEDs commonly found in Christmas light strings. When off, the inverted cone really looks like a reflector and when on, there is that hot spot right in the middle with that familiar reflector glow around it. They really look good !  Standard 3mm on the right, inverted cone in the original light fixture on the left and removed from the fixture in the middle ....

Mark.

[SeeYou190]

garya

A sander line seems to have come loose. Should I solder back in position, or will epoxy/CA work well enough?

I would use Loctite Gel Control super glue. If there is an unseen areas where the pipe runs, back it up with some epoxy putty like PSI Kneadatite.

garya

The 4-4-0 runs a little jerky at slow speed, in both directions. I'm guessing the drivetrain/gearbox needs some attention. Do most people replace gearboxes, or should I just try breaking it in first?

Before you run it very much, clean the old lubrication from the gear box, and then lubricate it with some light grease or oil. Then run it to try and break it in. A lot of old brass was not run very much.

garya

It looks like there's a clear coat or varnish on both items. Should I soak in lacquer thinner to remove that?

Removing a factory applied clear coat can be difficult and actually make the final finish look worse. I have a United 2-6-2 that was factory clear coated. I gave it a quick rinse in Super-Green,rinsed it, dipped it in vinegar, rinsed it again, allowed it to air dry, and painted as normal. All OK.

That was suggested to me by another modeller, and it worked. Your results may differ.

-Kevin

[snjroy]

I always thought that the factory varnish was to prevent tarnish, and acts as a primer for painting. Removing it would defeat both purposes.. One of my models appeared to have that varnish and I just added an auto primer coat on top of it, just to be safe, and painted the model with acrylic paint. That was about 5 years ago, and the paint has not chipped anywhere despite some handling. It's a regular runner on the layout.

Decaling is still needed...

climax B cc by on Flickr" alt="" />

 

[trainnut1250]

SeeYou190

 

garya

A sander line seems to have come loose. Should I solder back in position, or will epoxy/CA work well enough?

 

 

I would use Loctite Gel Control super glue. If there is an unseen areas where the pipe runs, back it up with some epoxy putty like PSI Kneadatite.

 

garya

The 4-4-0 runs a little jerky at slow speed, in both directions. I'm guessing the drivetrain/gearbox needs some attention. Do most people replace gearboxes, or should I just try breaking it in first?

 

 

Before you run it very much, clean the old lubrication from the gear box, and then lubricate it with some light grease or oil. Then run it to try and break it in. A lot of old brass was not run very much.

 

garya

It looks like there's a clear coat or varnish on both items. Should I soak in lacquer thinner to remove that?

 

 

Removing a factory applied clear coat can be difficult and actually make the final finish look worse. I have a United 2-6-2 that was factory clear coated. I gave it a quick rinse in Super-Green,rinsed it, dipped it in vinegar, rinsed it again, allowed it to air dry, and painted as normal. All OK.

That was suggested to me by another modeller, and it worked. Your results may differ.

-Kevin

 

 

+1 - I never remove the clearcoat/brass paint. The two times I did, it took forever, was a huge mess and the paint job didn't turn out any better than the locos where I left the clear coat intact.

Second the recommendations to use an airbrush and to not take apart running gear to paint.

 

Guy

[PRR8259]

Well, multiple professional painters have told me that they always always strip the lacquer completely and lightly bead blast the metal to etch it so the new paint will stick.  This is done because often there are runs and other flaws in the factory lacquer that will most definitely show through the final finish if it is not totally completely removed prior to painting.

Yes, a model that has pitting into the brass will not be improved by stripping factory lacquer, and I'm also told that once there is pitting extending beyond some small, possibly treatable or repairable area, they consider the model to be too far gone to bother painting.  Sometimes if it's just the cab roof they can get away with priming and sanding to smooth out a pitted area, but other areas can be more difficult to repair.  (Get rid of the old rotten foam and consider using bubble wrap instead.  Don't leave them resting in old rotten foam, it can eat into the brass and cause pitting).

I just got in a 52 year old model that was fully stripped to bare brass and the final paint finish looks really good (I do not paint these but trust the pros).  This is a Balboa/Katsumi (made in Tokyo) SP Mk-5 2-8-2 with new idler gearbox and new can motor.  With paint, lights and everything, this model only cost me $450 plus shipping.  Honestly it is not as loaded with details as some are, so not everyone would like something like this, but this is my favorite model ever.  The design engineer in me likes clean lines and classic 1920's-30's steam appearance.

Since I run and play with them, I am a value shopper now and the high end pricy ones probably won't be for me, but old bulletproof ones...will.  I would rather own something like this than a brass/diecast hybrid or plastic monster articulated (though my son does have both a Genesis and a BLI 4-6-6-4).

 

[mlehman]

gregc

 

 

mlehman

I tend to use lots of titanium putty.

 

 

do you mean tungsten (19.3 g/cm^3).   titanium is just 4.5 g/cm^3

 

greg,

Thanks for catching that, it is tungsten putty.

[mlehman]

GP025

Adding weight- what is the best way to add weight for balancing? Just epoxying lead shot? (seems messy) or building some kind of containment box and affixing that somehow.

Just happened to be browing some old RMCs and came across an artilce, "Weighting the Brass Loco," in the Nov, 1965 issue, page 36 and 37. It's old school stiuff, but still may be useful.