Hi all!
My proto 2000 0-6-0 with DCC Sound arrived today. I only paid $99 for it, since the seller said it wasn't running.
Thinking it was a simple fix(unsoldered wire, maybe motor is rubbing on frame, or at worst, a cracked gear), I bought the item.
Turns out, the issue was far worse. I took the motor out by itself, and realized there was a ton of resistance on the motor shaft.
I figured maybe the magnet inside got unstuck from the side of the motor frame.
After the struggle of taking the flywheel off(motor was too big for my NWSL gear puller), I got the motor shell apart, to find that the magnets have desintigrated, presumably from zinc pest(argggggg!! zinc pest my worst enemy!)
This is a first for me, having a motor fail in such a catastrophic way.
Since the motor is held by a split metal chassis design, I'll have to find an identical replacement motor.
Does anyone have any suggestions/experience working with a similar issue?
I found a reference image of the motor, from one of those ebay china 12v motor sellers. But I cant seem to find any selling on Ebay.
https://picclick.com/DC-12V-24V-17800rpm-High-Speed-Strong-Magnetic-191946488250.html
Thanks!
Charles
EDIT: wow, what a conicidence that there are multiple active threads on Proto 2000 zinc pest. However, this one is more about where they sourced their motors, since proto 2000 don't make their own motors.
EDIT 2: I stand corrected, its not zinc pest, but basically it looks like the magnet crumbed apart.
EDIT 3: since it seems like few bothered to click the link above that contained all the info of the motor, here's the dimensions:
the shaft diameter is 2mm, the dimensions are: 16mm height, 35mm length, 12.7mm wide.
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
Instagram (where I share projects!): https://www.instagram.com/trainman440
Hi there. It does not need to be exactly the same motor, but finding one would make the job easier. If you go for an alternate 12v motor, make sure to take measurements to ensure it will fit. A flywheel is not absolutely essential. What is also important is shaft size - find one that matches the old one in terms of length and thickness. Mabuchi is a good brand to look for, among others.
Once you have the parts, remove the gear - i use a special puller from NWSL, but you can do it with other tools. Place the gear on the shaft of the new motor - it should be a snug fit. I apply a few strokes on the shaft with a file to give a bit of grip, and glue the gear with CA. Once together, you can attach the motor and gear to the frame using silicone caulk. You might have to build a plastic support.
Good luck!
Simon
Have you contacted Walthers? I have a couple of their subway trains, the first made by Life-Like, and they did have replacement motors. I had to contact their service department by email, but they were able to send me a new motor. These were not catalog items, not did I find them on their web site, but they had them.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I don't know what that is, but zinc is not in magnets.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I found a similar motor at Aliexpress: https://www.aliexpress.com/i/33030663093.html
Not sure if it will work without dimensions, but you could try it. You will probably be waiting awhile, though.
Edit: I looked at your ebay link and compared dimensions. It looks the same.
Gary
I also found this one on ebay. It looks to be the same, but there are no dimensions:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-12V-24V-17800RPM-NdFeB-Five-Pole-Rotor-Dual-Shaft-Motor-Toy-Car-Boat-Model/192942409755?_trkparms=aid%3D1110001%26algo%3DSPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20190920091355%26meid%3Dbe620a6c963349dbbaf9e9033ca37160%26pid%3D100036%26rk%3D8%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D191946488250%26itm%3D192942409755%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100036.m2109
Hi all the motor type was listed as a link in the original post. However, it seemed like everywhere online it was sold out. The ali link above is also sold out. I ended up paying the $14 from the ebay link above. Big thanks to Gary!
Thanks all for the replies!
Update: I paid the $14 USD for the Ebay motor, but the seller just messaged me saying they're out. ughhhhhhh...
Trainman440 Update: I paid the $14 USD for the Ebay motor, but the seller just messaged me saying they're out. ughhhhhhh...
That sucks. I was looking for motors on eBay just last night--I'll poke around and look some more for one like that.
Since you did not gave us the most important information (motor dimensions - height, width, shaft diameter - motor length is less important), it is not easy to help you.
But on ebay, there are many motors, different dimensions (and speeds).
Mabuchi 15x20x25 mm, shaft 2 mm
Dual shaft, 12x15,5x19 mm, shaft 1,5 mm
Dual shaft 10x12x15 mm, shaft 1 mm
Dual shaft 12x15,5x19 mm, shaft 1,5 mm
If shaft of your motor is 2 mm, with some of the above motors, you need tubing to adapt motor diameter to 2 mm.
All the above are iron core motors.
If 16 mm motor can be used, I would use this coreless motor: Coreless 16 x 19 mm, shaft 1,5 mm. It is 5 pole coreless Japanese motor, I have used it with my Fleischmann locomotive, and achieved excellent results (video). Quiet but strong - for sure enough for small 0-6-0 switcher. I have bought it from this seller, it is a reliable seller.
Hrvoje
People put new magnets in open frame moters all the time and you can grind down magnets some,
As far as I know, magnets should not be grinded or in any way machined after they were manufactured. They should be used as they are. Otherwise, they crack further and finally disintegrate.
If too small, magnets can be stacked to achieve required magnetic force and/or dimension (especially in open frame motors).
In my original post, I had the exact motor dimensions, RPM, shaft diameter, voltage, etc in the link. The link led to the exact motor used, which included all the information.
the shaft diameter is 2mm, the dimensions are: 16mm height, 35mm length, 12.7mm wide. It operates at 12v DC, at 17800rpm.
Obviously the length/rpm doesn't matter, but the proto 2000 0-6-0 being a split frame chassis, will require the motor to be 16 x 12mm in width and height, and have a 2mm shaft. This odd combination is rare, and besides a $44 mabuchi motor, I could not find any other replacements.
After spending 2 hrs searching for motors, it seems nearly all motors with 2mm shaft has a 20mm height, and all motors with 16mm height have 1.5mm shaft.
PS apologies for sounding frustrated, Im just disappointed at the fact that the ONE motor I need, it seems like China just discontinued it.
The magnets inside the small motor are curved. This is not a simple open fram motor, where the magnet dimensions don't really matter. A can motor have curved magnets, just small enough to fit inside the metal shell, but small enough to avoid contact with the armature. Grinding neodym magnets wont work, since those magnets are very soft, inside. The outer coating is crucial to the structural integrity of the magnet. I could try purchasing the non-neodym magnets.
I'll try that. thanks.
To anyone thats reading this that has a similar issue with their engine, return it right away. It's not worth the trouble!
Charles,
I know magnets are curved - but such cannot be found. Non-neodym magnets are probably weaker. I suggested 20x3x2 mm because if they can be fittted so that rotor can rotate, then they does not need to be curverd to create magnetic field between them. Maybe even three at each side could be fitted in. Of course, it would be ideal if they are curved, but even if they are positioned one next to each other, they should still give enough force at least for motor to work. Cylindrical magnets that Mel suggested also could work.
If this motor would have enough power, is another matter.
If replacement of magnets fail, then you could use the motor I have suggested above: 12x15,5x19 mm, for example. What we do not know about this motor, is it 5 or 3 pole. It would be much better, especially for DCC, that it has 5 poles. You can ask seller, if he knows this information. It is fast spinning motor, but you can adjust this with CV 5.
The shaft diameter of 1,5 mm is not a problem: you can buy stainless stell capillary tube ID 1,5 mm OD 2,0 mm, 100 mm long, for just 3,20 USD. If ID is exact 1,5 mm, than it is excellent solution. Btw, such tube dimension is very hard to find. Usually you can find ID 1,4 mm OD 2,0 mm.
And finally, I know it is frustrating, but this is very nice locomotive, it runs perfectly (I have the same but it is waiting to get sound decoder, I did not open it yet). I think it is worth the trouble, now when you have it, what to do with it? When you repair/replace the motor you will forget the trouble and enjoy in beautiful little model.
Btw, I opened your link. But as you noted "reference image of the motor", I was not sure if you just assume this is the same motor - therefore I asked for confirmation of dimensions.
I hope you will be able to repair this beautiful locomotive!
There is not such question as stupid question. Here is the exploded diagram:
I tried today my locomotive. It started to move (DC) with potentiometer turned much more than any other DC loco I have - it requires a lot to start to move. But when it moves, it moves beautifully, almost silently, without any jerking. It is relatively slow locomotive. Yes, it is a fast motor from above link, but this can be adjusted with CV 5. It is not a perfect solution but it would work. Furthermore, it is a small, very light locomotive - it does not require a very strong motor, because due to its weight and lack of traction tires, it cannot pull much anyway.
Well, why not. Walthers maybe has replacement motor (but I assume, it will not be cheap). Or warranty claim could be used here. If I learned one thing from my two visits in the USA, a customer is a king. To try, it costs nothing.
All my steam locomotives have gear towers, e.g. from Roco, except if they were not manufactured by Fleischmann which does not use worm drive at all for small steam locomotives, and some big ones. So I was not surprised with this design. The problem is split frame, it is not easy to fit motor that has not exactly the same dimensions as the original one, and to achieve perfect meshing of worm and worm gear.
Here, it is maybe even possible to fit 16-17 mm motor - and for that dimension, there are a lot motors on the market. But to do that, it requires some milling/filing of the frame, and that is much complicated to do, especially if someone has never done such thing.
Trainman440 the shaft diameter is 2mm, the dimensions are: 16mm height, 35mm length, 12.7mm wide. It operates at 12v DC, at 17800rpm. Obviously the length/rpm doesn't matter, but the proto 2000 0-6-0 being a split frame chassis, will require the motor to be 16 x 12mm in width and height, and have a 2mm shaft. This odd combination is rare, and besides a $44 mabuchi motor, I could not find any other replacements. After spending 2 hrs searching for motors, it seems nearly all motors with 2mm shaft has a 20mm height, and all motors with 16mm height have 1.5mm shaft. PS apologies for sounding frustrated, Im just disappointed at the fact that the ONE motor I need, it seems like China just discontinued it.
Gary - yea I hope so! Seeing that most sellers ran out last year october, I hope that they will return someday.
Mel - that's some wonderful machining for the frame you got there! I wish I had the machining skills like you! I'd argue that Proto 2000/walthers steam engines are probably the best runners/most detailed on the market. However, they are a real pain to take apart. This is my third 0-6-0 from them, and 5th proto 2000 steam engine(got three 0-6-0s, a 0-8-0, and a 2-10-2)
Hrvoje - the motor is a 5 pole skew wound. The tubing to change the shaft diameter is actually a really good idea!
UPDATE: After Henry pointed out that magnets aren't made of zinc pest, that gave me an idea. The only way metal dust could get into the motor is either:
1. the magnets were somehow touching the core, thereby wearing it out.
2. dust somehow got into the motor during assembly...maybe dropped onto the floor during assembly and the magnet attracted some metal dust.
3. the magnet somehow disintegrated due to just sitting there. (not zinc rot)
Here's what I found after some careful prodding. There is still solid magnet under the metal dust. The core/armature/shaft had no scratches or signs that it had contact with the motor. In fact, the engine seemed brand new, no dirt on the wheels. It seems like the engine didn't run out of the factory, since the metal dust prevented the core from moving. It didn't short out the motor as the dust isnt attracted to the copper/other non magnetic materials on the core, rather just stalling the motor. That's why the commutator and everything is clean.
This rules out possibility (1).
Second, I tapped the magnet with a metal screwdriver, hitting it and scratching it. The magnet didnt cracked/split/etc. When I tried scraping it, no further dust was produced. I couldn't pry the magnets out of the motor either. It seems the magnets were solid.
Finally, I (painfully) removed all the metal shavings out of the motor, by using a mini toothbrush and lots of sticky tape. After removing as much dust as possible, I put the motor back together and let it run for 30 min. After letting it cool down and reopening it, there was no signs of overheating, or any further dust produced. The fact that the magnets were still solid leads me to think possibility (3) is unlikely.
Anyways, the engine is currently reassembled(took ages!) and running fine.
I don't know how all the mystery dust got into the motor, but its working fine. However as soon as the motors are back in stock, I will replace it immediately.
Here's a pic of the inside of the engine, in case anyone is interested.
Thanks all for the contributions!
Wow, that's good news. I have two of these old Proto Heritage veterans and they both run smooth as can be. I recently ordered the TCS WOWsound kit for one of them.
Glad you sorted out the ferric dust problem Good Luck, Ed
Wonderful news!
If dust is not coming from disintegrated magnets (because they are in fact intact), it can mean that after careful removal of dust, motor will work normally and maybe even does not need to be replaced. Of course, if replacement motor is available again, it is smart to buy one, just in case.
Charles, can you please explain how did you open the locomotive? It has one screw in the smokestack. After removing it, is it enough to pry a little the cab sideways (it seems there is one clip on each side, under the cab) and the whole boiler and cab can be removed?