BNSF UP and others modeler "It is cheap ($500), better detail than ANY scratchbuilding, and is relitively simple to pick up. If you can print your cardstock models or make paper signs using an ink printer, you can use a resin 3d printer. MAKING your own files IS a steeper learning curve than printing someone else's, but it is worth it if you are open minded and willing to add a new trick to your toolbag."
Probably in 5-10 years I will be adding a 3D printer to my model building desk.
Passenger Car Interiors are #1 on my "to print" list.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I wasn´t talking about rather simple things like structures, although even they can be quite complex, if you add any "protruding" or overhanging details. You need to design supports to make your object printable, that often depends on your printer and the material you use. If you want to build a complex object, like a locomotive, you will have to design it in various subassemblies and sometimes use different materials for the prints.
Last, but certainly not least, the size your printer is able to print, determines how many parts you my need, if your object is going to be larger than the maximum print size.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
Tinplate Toddler WILLIAM SHEPARD 3D printing is much like the laser operators and scratch builders are craftsmen I beg to differ! The 3D printing process is just the outcome of a lot of work done before that! You need to have a lot of construction skills to design your model, using a CAD tool to do the job. Without that knowledge, you won´t be able to either scratchbuild nor 3D print a model.
WILLIAM SHEPARD 3D printing is much like the laser operators and scratch builders are craftsmen
I beg to differ!
The 3D printing process is just the outcome of a lot of work done before that! You need to have a lot of construction skills to design your model, using a CAD tool to do the job. Without that knowledge, you won´t be able to either scratchbuild nor 3D print a model.
That is simply untrue. As I said earlier:
"It is cheap ($500), better detail than ANY scratchbuilding, and is relitively simple to pick up. If you can print your cardstock models or make paper signs using an ink printer, you can use a resin 3d printer. MAKING your own files IS a steeper learning curve than printing someone else's, but it is worth it if you are open minded and willing to add a new trick to your toolbag."
I can design an entire house, shack, depot etc in an afternoon in sketchup, and print it in another 3-4 hours. No needing to draw the plans in 2d and then having to put them together as a 3d structure. Saves time, store trips, different styrene sheets, and money.
Drawing plans and drawing in CAD is barely different. One is paper and pencil, the other mouse and screen.
I'm beginning to realize that Windows 10 and sound decoders have a lot in common. There are so many things you have to change in order to get them to work the way you want.
WILLIAM SHEPARDscratch builders are craftsmen
This is where we get dangerously close the the "what makes a real model railroader" sewer of discussion.
Scratchbuilding is a specialized set of skills that is not required to build an operating and enjoyable model railroad empire.
I enjoy scratchbulding, and I think it adds to my enjoyment of all my hobbies. I also enjoy building resin and craftsman kits, and fine tuning brass locomotives. None of these skills is necessary.
To answer to OP's question, which I tried to do above... scratchbuilding is not, and has not been, a required skill. It is enjoyable to some, and annoying to others.
WILLIAM SHEPARD3D printing is much like the laser operators and scratch builders are craftsmen
Craftsmen have always build models for their model railroads since the beginnng of modeling.
Back in the late 80' and early 90's many arts and craft people bought scroll saws to build intricate detail things to sell at arts and crafts shows. But then came along the laser cut things.
It soon became known that people that had spent so much money on lasers really had no talent other than knowledge of how to operate a computer, but some may have trouble tying their shoes. The scroll saw people were true craftsmen and women many of which came up with their own patterns and learned how to build things from scratch using tools at hand.
3D printing is much like the laser operators and scratch builders are craftsmen
Random_Idea_Poster_6263 As a beginner in the hobby, I understand that with the advent, and improving 3D printing industry it has never been easier to create the shell bodies of locomotives you want to build, rolling stock, and structures. However I have also come to realize, and ask you fellow fourm memebers, is scratchbuilding still is an import skill to learn? I am guessing that there are things 3D printing cannot build and have the effect of copared to say, an entirly scratch built trestle out of real metal, like the CPR Stony Creek trestle build I saw featured in an article in an older issue of MRR I discovered on the digital archives.So, regardless of the advantages 3D printing has, is still imporant to learn scratch building from basic materials, and kit bashing as well? I feel this has an advantage, as you mean, feel and actul create with many materials instead of the basic 3D printing stuff.What do you think, and what would your advice be?
As a beginner in the hobby, I understand that with the advent, and improving 3D printing industry it has never been easier to create the shell bodies of locomotives you want to build, rolling stock, and structures. However I have also come to realize, and ask you fellow fourm memebers, is scratchbuilding still is an import skill to learn? I am guessing that there are things 3D printing cannot build and have the effect of copared to say, an entirly scratch built trestle out of real metal, like the CPR Stony Creek trestle build I saw featured in an article in an older issue of MRR I discovered on the digital archives.So, regardless of the advantages 3D printing has, is still imporant to learn scratch building from basic materials, and kit bashing as well? I feel this has an advantage, as you mean, feel and actul create with many materials instead of the basic 3D printing stuff.What do you think, and what would your advice be?
I do not think it has ever been important to learn how to scratch build. I am saying that as a fairly-well-skilled scratchbuilder.
I have visited many layouts where nothing was scratchbuilt, and the owner was having a great time with his creation.
Model Railroading provides enjoyment, and there are many ways to squeeze that enjoyment from it. Especially today, scratchbuilding is not a requirement.
I started scratch building in the late 50s primarily because there was not a lot of model railroad stuff available and I was a kid so I couldn't afford what was available. Back then, you got a sheet of balsa and scribed your own siding and learned a lot or what is now called 'repurposing'.
Now, 3D and laser cutting are just more tools in the box. In my opinion, I prefer using wood for wood.
I recently modeled an old Colorado Central water tank using some old photos. I estimated a scale on the photos, drew up the plans on DesignCad (instead of pen and ink on a drafting table). The tank was round and tapered. This looked difficult to model so I created a 3D core on the local library's 3D printer. Not fine resolution but served my purpose. I also printed a 3D core for the hexagon tapered roof section. I covered the roof with styrene panels (not available back in the day). I calculated the number of approximately 8" wide water tank boards. Since they were tapered from top to bottom, I cut 56 of them on a 1/64" plywood on the library's laser printer. These were glued to the sides of the tank core and came out perfectly. The base was made from milled basswood with balsa internal bracing.
The point of all that is I am still scratch building but using all of the wonderful tools and materials that are available today to be a better modeler. By the way, the tank qualified for an NMRA merit award.
It all depends where you want to take your modeling. To paraphrase Bob Ross, 'it's your world, do what you want."
Dennis
Heap-Big Chief Engineer & COO
I have fourteen cars on my workbench right now being built from scratch. So obviously scratchbuilding is still relevant to me. I enjoy finding a prototype that I like and then figuring out how to build it. Scratchbuilding is not a cheap way to make a car and parts are getting more difficult to find. Just assembling the parts to make a complete "kit" proir to building the car is a major endeavor. It is more efficient to plan to build multiple cars at the same time. Then the actual construction takes far more time than assembling a commercial kit, especially the cutting and driling. But in the end you can have a unique model and be proud of what you did. You can say, "I made that!".
Scratchbuilding is, in my opinion, a valuable skill..When you are done, you know YOU built it (not just assembled pre made parts)..I respect skills necessary in both sides of this discussion but I feel personally, you have more pride in the project when you have "made it yourself"....Probably an old fashioned viewpoint but that is my humble opinion.
I have also 3d printed my own model railroad parts, and designed a 48ft BN well car from scratch.
That said, I will answer the OP's question. And it will be a bit complex, so I'll start witht the short answer
SHORT ANSWER:
Yes scratchbuiling is worth learning still, but you won't use it much. It may depend on a specific project too.
LONG ANSWER:
I'm afraid I will be frustrating a lot of modelers who have spent their whole life using more time proven techniques for building models, but 3d printing will be the go to for many modelers moving forward. I agree with those members here that are of the resin 3d printing party. It is cheap ($500), better detail than ANY scratchbuilding, and is relitively simple to pick up. If you can print your cardstock models or make paper signs using an ink printer, you can use a resin 3d printer. MAKING your own files IS a steeper learning curve than printing someone else's, but it is worth it if you are open minded and willing to add a new trick to your toolbag.
There have been untrue complaints of high prices and poor details. People using 3d printers (especially resin ones) are people looking for very specific and detailed models, which cost $300 a locomotive ANYWAY, so a $500 dollar INTIAL investment saves money in the end run (like solar panels for your home). In terms of detail level, we aren't in the STL age anymore. Those were crude. The resin ones that are incidentally cheaper are NOT. So crude details are no longer a valid point.
3d printing caters to small and medium projects were the modeler has fairly to very high demands for prescision and detail, cannot find a commercial model of what he/she wants, or just wants to save money by making everything.
It is probably not for those who are not rivet counters, people who can get the models they need elsewhere, and/or those with a more comfortable hobby budget.
Also its just plain stupid to try to 3d print a 5 foot gaint trestle. THAT would be a good example of something to scratchbuild.
My 2 cents. I know I'll get a lot of flak for this post but oh well.
Renegade1c Tinplate Toddler Renegade1c Resin Printers are getting really cheap (<$500) I wouldn´t call that cheap! I should have said relatively speaking. They used to be in the $10,000+ range 10 years ago. Speaking relatively that's two well detailed sound locomotives. :)
Tinplate Toddler Renegade1c Resin Printers are getting really cheap (<$500) I wouldn´t call that cheap!
Renegade1c Resin Printers are getting really cheap (<$500)
I wouldn´t call that cheap!
I should have said relatively speaking. They used to be in the $10,000+ range 10 years ago.
Speaking relatively that's two well detailed sound locomotives. :)
Dave and others bring up interesting points.
I'm fairly new to the hobby. I've been building my own N Scale buildings and calling what I've done, "scratchbuilding".
However, I used windows from Tichey, plastic from Evergreen, etc.
So technically, I didn't really "scratchbuild" the buildings.
I didn't mix up my own solutions of glue and paint, I didn't make the LED bulbs I use, and I didn't make the wire.
Regardless, I'll probably continue to tell people I scratchbuilt a building, and most of us will know what that means.
I also can see that for competitions, there would have to be very explicit rules on what the definition of 'scratchbuilt' is.
"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."
York1 John
IMHO I always found kitbashing and maintenance skills more important then scratchbuilding.
I once combined two AHM Interlocking Tower kits(kit # 5825) to make a very nice two story yard office. This was far cheaer then buying the needed scratchbuilding supplies.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Colorado Front Range Railroad: http://www.coloradofrontrangerr.com/
Tinplate Toddler Renegade1c Resin Printers are getting really cheap (<$500)
Renegade1c The NMRA has already defined this in their AP documents. "The term "scratchbuilt" carries the implication that the builder alone has accomplished all of the necessary layout and fabrication which establish the final dimensions, appearance, and operating qualities of the scale model. This definition does not prevent the use of any tools or jigs as long as the builder alone has done the work necessary for the tool to make the part. This would include drawings or computer files to control CNC, automatic lathes, laser cutting machines, 3-D printers, and other tools. If a third party changes the builder's inputs, then the parts are not considered to be scratch built." (Link:https://nmra.org/definitions#scratch)
The NMRA has already defined this in their AP documents.
"The term "scratchbuilt" carries the implication that the builder alone has accomplished all of the necessary layout and fabrication which establish the final dimensions, appearance, and operating qualities of the scale model. This definition does not prevent the use of any tools or jigs as long as the builder alone has done the work necessary for the tool to make the part. This would include drawings or computer files to control CNC, automatic lathes, laser cutting machines, 3-D printers, and other tools. If a third party changes the builder's inputs, then the parts are not considered to be scratch built."
(Link:https://nmra.org/definitions#scratch)
I did not know this; it is actually good news. Not that it will change anything I do or how I do it, but now I feel a little better about cheating.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
Renegade1cResin Printers are getting really cheap (<$500)
dknelson An interesting variant on the OP's question is, just when IS the design and creation of your own 3D printed parts "scratchbuilding?" How have, or will, NMRA contest and achievement award criteria and point systems react to the introduction of home-created 3D printed parts into a model? (I do see a distinction between buying 3D printed parts from someone, versus doing all the work yourself on the computer and hitting a "print" button. the brain work should count for something surely
An interesting variant on the OP's question is, just when IS the design and creation of your own 3D printed parts "scratchbuilding?" How have, or will, NMRA contest and achievement award criteria and point systems react to the introduction of home-created 3D printed parts into a model? (I do see a distinction between buying 3D printed parts from someone, versus doing all the work yourself on the computer and hitting a "print" button. the brain work should count for something surely
I do most of my 3-D printing at home from my own CAD drawings. Every once and a while I send out a part to a third party (ie Shapeways) to be manufactured.
Based on the definition above it can be a bit tricky to know if they modified the part to be able to print it.
For example, when using my Resin printer, I have to import my CAD file and then add additional supports to make the model printable. With me adding these supports it can be considered scrtachbuilt since I designed, modified it to be 3D Printable and printed myself. Where it gets fuzzy to me is on the last line of the definition above.
"If a third party changes the builder's inputs, then the parts are not considered to be scratchbuilt."
To me this means if they have to add supporting material to my CAD model to make the part printable, its no longer scratchbuilt. In the end we may receive the part and it will match the drawing we sent them but there are intermediate steps their production engineers take to make it a viable printed part (such as support material).
Scratchbuilding with basic tools and materials is a marvelous skill, and I hope to develop them and progress. I started in the hobby after it became feasible to use CAD & 3DP to try to realize complex projects I wanted to model, couldn't buy commercially, and had no idea how to make with a sheet of styrene and a #11 blade. I'm fine with what (little) I've done having an asterisk tacked on or being referred to as "digital scratchbuilding", whatever. But I think encouraging people to make their own, however they decide to approach it, is a good thing.
I don't know but I do know.
Every weekend I go to WPF to see skilled craftsmanship. A picture is worth a thousand words and every week I see craftsmanship that blows my socks out the door.
I guess I understand the time and skill that went into Old School crafting.
I am old school and appreciate the hours and time that people put in to their craft.
Old School Art
TF
[quote user="dknelson"]
[quote]
Oh look a new model catagorie DSB Digital Scratch Build
But you do have to design upload and hit the print button yourself
regards John
Tinplate Toddler While the price for 3D printers has come down a lot, printers producing high quality prints (way above the Shapeways stuff) are still quite expensive.
While the price for 3D printers has come down a lot, printers producing high quality prints (way above the Shapeways stuff) are still quite expensive.
This is not necessarily true. Resin Printers are getting really cheap (<$500) and they are way higher resolution than FDM printers. My resin printer (an anycubic Photon S) produces very high resolution prints. I can get .010" dia. rivets to come out on it.
I think 3D printing can complement scratchbuilding. It is another tool in the arsenal.
Here is one of my first attempts of 3D-printing this caboose. I didn't do a very good job with the post processing (hence the shiny finish) on this one. but subsequent prints are way better (sorry no photo yet).
There is only so much you can do with the 3D-printer though. Grab irons and stanshions, ladders, etc. for the caboose are still fabricated from phosphor bronze wire. Underbody detail is another thing that needs quite a bit of work.
I spent probably 20 hours and had about 60 photos that I worked from to produce the CAD model of the caboose.
Here is my complete scratchbuilt version (prior to getting the resin 3D printer). The roof on the 3D-printed version is coming out way nicer.
I have yet to do proper "scratchbuilding" per se, but I have done quite some building with 3d printers. I'm modeling the contemporary Korean National Railroad (Korail), and there's almost nothing avaliable commercially, so I'm 3d printing my own rolling stock. Here is a collection of the freight cars I have done so far. These were printed on a $200 FDM printer in PLA, and the results are surprisingly good. Not perfect, but good enough for my needs.The cost of printers has gone down enormously in the past three years, while quality has increased.
The locomotive is not printed.
Scratchbuilding skills are something that I hope to build up over time, and printing definitely helps with that. Parts such as grab irons are hand bent and installed, and details such as stirrups and ladders are printed seperately and glued on. I'm currently working on a locomotive shell that I'm planning on printing in resin if I can and superdetailing with aftermarket parts, which counts towards something in terms of scratchbuilding I would think.
I'm waiting until resin printers come with more safety measures for resin fumes/waste to start using them.
-Peter. Mantua collector, 3D printing enthusiast, Korail modeler.
Good afternoon
I finally read through this one.
I want to start by saying what a string of agreeable replies as I found very little to disagree with if any. And I took my time looking through all your photos. Fine pieces of art each with their own individualism that is so typical of scratch building. I even think scratch building is similar to a fingerprint of someone's character or personality, ... Let's see a computer do that!
For me it's the gratisfaction of thinking of something, drawing two-dimensional plans of the concept in my head. Then making it come to life for pennies on the dollar. The hours of enjoyment, patience and taking your time to make sure something is just the way you envisioned it. Then when you're all finished, the sense of accomplishment and the admiration with pride you take in what you created.
Ain't nothing like that. There is such Talented Craftsman here. It always takes one to know one. I can admire and appreciate someone else's craftsmanship looking at their builds just as well as mine. I don't think I can ever remember walking by a computer feeling that way.
when they showed what CGI could do when making Jurassic Park, the clay-mation guys said they were obsolete
but the CGI guys said we need the clay-mation guys because they know how things move
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading