Hello all,
I have a large fleet of older Athearn Blue Box locomotives, mostly Geeps and SD40/SD45's. I am looking at repowering some of them so that they will run better and have the option to add DCC later. I'm looking on Athearn's website, and they have both the Genesis Motor and the High-Performance motor. Will the new Genesis motor be compatible with the old worm gear and power trucks? If I decide to get a HP motor, will I still have to solder the DCC decoder in or will the motor work with a PC board with a DCC plug? Thanks!
While I've yet to put a Genesis motor in anything, (there's nothing wrong with them, just haven't had the need to do it yet) I did re-motor a Blue Box DDA40X with a pair of the Athearn high performance motors about a year ago, and I didn't have to do anything special to it other than shorten one of the plastic drive shafts that plugs into the universal joints because the new motors are a little bit longer than the stock units. I didn't have to change the power trucks or worm gears at all, all I did was clean and re-lube them. I wouldn't think that you'd have to do any major mechanical alterations to install a Genesis motor. However, I did find this YouTube video on upgrading a Blue Box loco to a Genesis motor that might be helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLLCcomio4A Hope this helps. Good luck.
I had a number of old Athearn BB engines from the 50s. When I tried to run them again after 40 years in storage, they ran hesitantly if at all. I looked into both remotoring and replacing the old sintered wheels. Then I looked at M.B. Klein, and found the same engines for less than the cost of rehabbing the old ones.
I did remove the motors from a couple of the old engines, replace the couplers and I now run them as dummies. But, when you look at the old shells vs. new ones, the difference in detail is pretty obvious.
Just for the heck of it, look for closeouts and at discount sites like Trainworld for the engines you're interested in. Compare the costs, and think about you much of a job it would be to fix up an old engine.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Thank you all for your help, I will probably install a HP motor. Thanks!
Mel
I have the exact same loco model and the existing Athearn motor seems to be giving up (magnets dying?). I have cleaned and lubed it several times but it can't hold a steady speed to save its life. I have an NCE D13SRJ decoder with a TCS KA4 "keep alive" installed as I have done in most of my Athearn Blue Box locos. All run quite nicely with the original Athearn motors except this one. When pulling even a short train, this loco immediately slows as it enters a curve and you really have to give it the Willy to get it up any grade. It seems to get weaker and weaker as you run it for a while, too. The back EMF settings of the decoder don't seem to have any effect on this motor.
Taking your advice, I just ordered 4 of the Mabuchi FK-280SA can motors for $11 with shipping. Would you recommend the work needed to adapt the Athearn flywheels and universals or just go with the NWSL universals and no flywheels? This loco will be used to pull short trains up to 10 cars long up grades as steep as 2.6%.
I previously tried repowering another Blue Box loco using a new Bachmann can motor but am not impressed with this conversion as it seems to have too little torque. The Bachmann motor came with tiny brass (so small its difficult to describe them as) flywheels. It makes me wonder whether large heavy flywheels do indeed help with a loco's momentum.
Hornblower
If it was my locomotive I would try installing the flywheels on the Mabuchi shafts. If I couldn’t get them to run without vibration (flywheels off balance) I would scrap the flywheels and go with the NWSL universals. I really don’t like momentum anyway, and if you rely on the momentum because of problems with power pickup I’d fix the track.I’m the engineer on my layout and I control the locomotive speed not flywheels or momentum in the controller. I only shimmed the Athearn flywheels to see if I could.Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Four of these Athearn switchers, modified into a version of the SW1200RS used by several roads...
...and re-motored with Mashima can motors...
...and minus the puny flywheels, which were replaced with custom cast lead weights...
...easily handled a 71 car train up the 45' long 2.8% grade to the second level of my layout.
I also re-did three of these Athearn U-33-Cs...
... with dual Mashima motors and lots of extra weight...
...giving them each a drawbar pull of 8.3oz. - a combined output of almost 25oz.
This one got a Sagami motor, Ernst gearing, and a detailed cab interior...
...and these Athearn geeps, modified to match specific prototypes, also got Mashima can motors and lots of additional weight...
All of these Athearn locomotives ran more smoothly, had improved speed range, and lower current draw. Most were sold when I back-dated my layout's era, but a few are still around in a display cabinet, and still make occasional trips on the layout, too.
As is apparent, all of these locomotives are DC powered, so the space inside the body shells is available for the extra weight, which improves their pulling power.
If you're speaking of Athearn units running with DCC, the decoders will take up some of the room that I was able to use for extra weight, so your locos may run better due to both the new motors and possibly the DCC, too, but the pulling power may not match what mine were able to achieve. In either case, though, the improvement is worth the cost and the work.
Wayne
doctorwayne Four of these Athearn switchers, modified into a version of the SW1200RS used by several roads... ...and re-motored with Mashima can motors... ...and minus the puny flywheels, which were replaced with custom cast lead weights... ...easily handled a 71 car train up the 45' long 2.8% grade to the second level of my layout. Wayne
I removed the body shell from one of the TH&B locos, and all that was on the motor was a sticker that read "MASHIMA 12 VOLT MADE IN JAPAN". No part number or any other info.
I don't recall where I bought the motors, but it was quite a few years ago, so likely at one of the many hobbyshops which existed nearby at that time.
I measured the motor with my not-overly-accurate calipers, and it appears to be 18x26mm, and about 32mm long.
Here's a link to some Mashima motors, but in my opinion, they're grossly overpriced. None of mine have the commutator open to view, as they're all full can-motors.
I don't recall what I payed for mine, but likely under $30.00...probably closer to $20.00.
There are a lot of other decent motors available for much less nowadays, and the main thing to keep in mind is the amount of space within your loco's shell, especially the width, as it decreases somewhat towards the top of the cavity due to the draught angle needed to eject it from the mould. I ran into difficulties with that on the #53 loco, which used a Sagami motor from NWSL, and I had quite a bit of tedious work with a mill file trying to remove material from inside the bodyshell, just to get the motor to fit.
There is old... and there is OLD! If you need to change the motor, it sounds to me that you are in the latter category. I believe the rule is, if the motor has a gold color, then it should be fine.... Otherwise, I agree with the previous comment about considering buying new ones. I converted a few for fun - sentimental reasons really. But when you include the motor, the new lights, new wheels and perhaps new shaft, and shipping costs, it becomes expensive for a model that is basically outdated. And add DCC to that?
Yet, they still fetch a decent price on Ebay. Go figure.
My two cents anyway.
Simon
snjroy...I converted a few for fun - sentimental reasons really. But when you include the motor, the new lights, new wheels and perhaps new shaft, and shipping costs, it becomes expensive for a model that is basically outdated. And add DCC to that?
At the time I did most of mine, there weren't a lot of other similar locos from which to choose, so some of mine, especially the TH&Bs, were done for sentimental reasons.However, I never bothered with working lights and preferred (still do) the original Athearn wheelsets. The Mashimi motor shafts were, I think, bushed to fit into the Athearn drivetrain, so very little expense for that.
As for DCC, not at all interested.
I often re-motor brass locomotives, though, or replace the magnets in ones with older open-frame motors, both for my own locos and those of a few friends.
Mel,
Would those dual motor setups be suitable for DCC or do they pull too much current?
Also, have you tried the black 5-pole, dual-shaft motors on ebay that have the longer shafts? I don't know if we can link here, but they are called:
DC 12V-24V 22200RPM High Speed 5-Pole Rotor Motor Long Dual Shaft Axis DIY Toy
I've heard some folks speak well of them, and they look good.
I've got a batch of the motors-with-large-flywheels that are advertised as HO motors on the way from AliExpress. They only come to about $8 each with flywheels, but you have to buy in packs of 5.
Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad for Chicago Trainspotting and Budget Model Railroading.
Eilif Mel, Would those dual motor setups be suitable for DCC or do they pull too much current? Also, have you tried the black 5-pole, dual-shaft motors on ebay that have the longer shafts? I don't know if we can link here, but they are called: DC 12V-24V 22200RPM High Speed 5-Pole Rotor Motor Long Dual Shaft Axis DIY Toy I've heard some folks speak well of them, and they look good. I've got a batch of the motors-with-large-flywheels that are advertised as HO motors on the way from AliExpress. They only come to about $8 each with flywheels, but you have to buy in packs of 5.
The word “TOY” bothers me. The 12/24 volt bothers me also as does the very high RPM. I’ve never run across a motor with “TOY” in the advertisement that was any good for a model railroad locomotive. “TOY” and “HOBBY MOTOR” are key words to me.Most steam locomotives require 5k to 6K RPM, Athearn BB motors are 12k RPM but run nicely using the 7K RPM Mabuchis. I’m not into high speed model railroading so a scale 60MPH is OK with me.The Mabuchi motors draw much less than half the current of a non can motor factory motor. A pair of Mabuchi SF-266 motors draws under 600ma at full load, most DCC decoders are rated at over 1000ma or one amp. I have at least 30 dual motor locomotives that run great in DCC mode, I’ve never dinged a decoder since I went DCC in 2006. I received one decoder that died from infant mortality that the manufactured replaced quickly. The Mabuchi FK-280SA 14200 is 13,000 RPM with dual shafts and works great in an Athearn frame.Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Thanks for that!
Very good to know.
I have all three varieties here and a fourth (with flywheels) is on the way, so maybe I should start remotoring and stop buying...
Thank you so much for your recommendation of the Mabuchi FK-280SA motor. I received an order of four motors ($11 including shipping) yesterday and spent this morning remotoring an Athearn Geep just like yours (5641 in Southern Pacific livery). Wow, what a difference! I had some styrene tube on hand that had a nice interference fit inside the Athearn flywheels and a careful reaming of the inner diameter using a 2mm drill bit gave a nice interference fit on the Mabuchi motor shafts. I found that sitting a round side of the Mabuchi motor atop the inner bevel of the original Athearn press-in motor mounts positioned the motor at just the right height. I placed a pad of .090" styrene in the motor well to support the other end of the can motor and used hot glue to anchor the motor in place. Perfect! I had already installed an NCE D13SRJ decoder with a TCS KA4 Keep Alive with the original Athearn motor. However, the original Athearn motor had become so weak that you constantly had to adjust the loco speed on inclines and declines. I just ran the remotored loco pulling seven cars around my layout and it smoothly crawled around the entire layout at speed step 10 of 128 without any hesitation and little speed change on the grades. I may just have to purchase more of these motors and upgrade my entire Blue Box fleet! Thanks again Mel.
HornblowerI want to thank you for your post!!!! I would never have thought of using Styrene tubing for the shim. The Evergreen 224 (⅛”) tubing is a perfect fit to reduce the Athearn flywheel 3.15mm ID to 2mm OD motor shaft.Absolutely zero imbalance, perfect fit. A very thin coat of CA or Super Glue on the 2mm motor shaft then the same very light coat on the tubing and it fits perfect.Thank you so much!!!!Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Today, I remotored a pair of Athearn EMD F7 locos I'd been running in a consist but had become quite noisy and couldn't figure out what the intermittent noise was. Once I removed the Athearn motor from one and spun it, I discovered the noise was coming from the motor itself (worn out bearings?). Instead of trying to mount the new Mabuchi motors on a round side as I did with the Geep, I stacked four pieces of .040" styrene sheet inside the motor well of each frame to produce a flat mounting pad. A little hot glue to hold the pad to the frame and a dab of hot glue to hold a flat side of the new can motor to the mounting pad. Piece of cake! These two locos had older mismatched decoders so I replaced them with NCE D13SRJ's. I also redid the headlights and Mars lights for a better look. Just finished programming and consisting these two together again and, Wow, do they run nicely! They both crawl along at a smooth 1-2 mph in speed step 1 of 128 in both directions. Now I have to order more Mabuchi motors and find someone who still has more D13SRJ decoders (of course NCE has discontinued them).
I have a bunch of the mabuchi motors Mel suggested.
The suggestion of the evergreen tubing is very appreciated. I will give that a try.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
MisterBeasleyI had a number of old Athearn BB engines from the 50s. When I tried to run them again after 40 years in storage, they ran hesitantly if at all. I looked into both remotoring and replacing the old sintered wheels. Then I looked at M.B. Klein, and found the same engines for less than the cost of rehabbing the old ones. ... But, when you look at the old shells vs. new ones, the difference in detail is pretty obvious.
Yes, the difference is amazing actually. I had an Athearn BB engine from the 70's rather than 50's, but believe the shells were the same. It was an SP SD45 and noticed, even at the age of 14, that the nose looked too wide. I later learned many of the Athearn BB engine hoods were too wide to accomodate the motors, and the nose of the SD45 matched the hood.
If the wide bodies and nose don't bother you, you may want to spend the money on the upgrade. With a little effort, you can find Athearn RTR SD45's with scale hoods and nice deails for well under $100. I just sold two surplus Athearn RTR SD45's for around $80 each; on eBay many are way over priced. Just an alternative to consider.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
There is a bit too much armchair is my modeling, but in preparation for the great day when more would be possible, I have been removing can motors from otherwise worn out electric toothbrushes, battery powered shavers, mini- and microcassette tape recorders, as well as cell phones (cellphone motors cause the vibration, and are so tiny that I have seen them used as traction motors totally underfloor within the trucks of HO diesels). These are less than 12 V, but usable, probably in series and/or with a resistor. They far outlast the devices they are in.
Don’t hold your breath! Good Luck! Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
WOW! Mel you did some really interesting dual motor installations there.
I did one similar to that articulated steam engine there, on a Rivarossi engine a long time ago. It turned out well. Perhaps I got the idea from something you posted?....(would have been at least 10+ years ago).
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
BurlingtonNorthern2264 Hello all, I have a large fleet of older Athearn Blue Box locomotives, mostly Geeps and SD40/SD45's. I am looking at repowering some of them so that they will run better and have the option to add DCC later. I'm looking on Athearn's website, and they have both the Genesis Motor and the High-Performance motor. Will the new Genesis motor be compatible with the old worm gear and power trucks? If I decide to get a HP motor, will I still have to solder the DCC decoder in or will the motor work with a PC board with a DCC plug? Thanks!
Can't speak to the SD's on this. What I have to say about the GPs may or not apply.
The powertrain of the LL PROTO GPs are the same as the ATHEARN BB GPs, but with better tolerances, IMO. They are quiet.
The BB GP38-2, 40-2, and 50 are a bit longer than the LL GPs 7,9,18, and 20, but the drivetrains still swap out exactly, IIRC from when I did it.
So if you're happy with the performance of a LL GP, skip the expense and the fuss of the Genesis motor or Mashima motor (I cant ever get the thing mounted right, and it performs not much better than the P2K motor).
Buy some of the 2 million LL GPs that have been produced and are for sale on ebay and install the drivetrain into your BB GPs. Isolate the motor with tape like P2K does and use caulk for a cushioning but firm motor mount. Replace the cracked axle gears of the P2K trucks with the known ATHEARN SD40-2 axle gear part.
Sell the shells for 25 to 30 bucks each, and the used BB power trucks and the LL frame for probably 15 to 20 bucks.
In the end, you'll have a better drivetrain, smooth AND quiet, plus a directional lightboard with an 8 pin DCC plug, for probably about a net 20 or 30 bucks per loco.
- Douglas
RR_MelThe word “TOY” bothers me. The 12/24 volt bothers me also as does the very high RPM. I’ve never run across a motor with “TOY” in the advertisement that was any good for a model railroad locomotive. “TOY” and “HOBBY MOTOR” are key words to me.
It could just be the seller trying to get the most hits on searches. Odd as it may seem, if Mabuchi uses that term in their literature it could have to do with it being something imported into the US.
Some time back someone from the Winnipeg model railroad club told me that model train stuff like transformers and other electrical stuff were way more expensive in Canada because they were considered "electronics" by their government, and electronics had a very high import tariff. If they had been classified as "toys" they would have had almost no import tariff added. Could be there's something like that now re the tariffs added by the US in recent years to imports from the Far East?
StixAll I know is every time I bought a “Hobby Motor” off eBay it was a dud and was returned as “not as advertised”.I wish I had bought a sack full of the Mabuchi FK-280SA 14200 motors, them being “out of stock” everywhere was a total surprise.For my self I have remotored almost every one of my locomotives with some kind of rare Earth magnet motor and still have a few spares of each with the exception of the Faulhaber 2224RS motors. The Faulhaber 2224RS is most likely the best HO model railroad motor out there but too pricy now without Eldon at Micro Locomotion.The Faulhaber motors have ball bearings and coast for several seconds after removing power. Smoothest running motor I ever run across with lots of torque. I'm in my 80s and have been slowly down sizing my fleet over the last couple of years so rather than continue remotoring them I’ll just make sure they go to a new home. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.