Oregon_Steamer BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL I do think the Mantua locos could be easily improved by retooling the boilers with just a few separately applied details replacing some of the cast on details and it would make a world of difference. Sheldon, When I was a member of the Columbus HO club back in the 60s we had a member that completely rebuilt a Mantua Mike. He added a new cowcatcher,added several Kemtron detail parts, made a new cab from brass stock and what impress me was the flying pumps mounted on the front of the boiler.. I never will forget that engine. Did it look something like this? https://issuu.com/trainresource/docs/tyco_mike_rm_v6_n1_jan_1976-online
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL I do think the Mantua locos could be easily improved by retooling the boilers with just a few separately applied details replacing some of the cast on details and it would make a world of difference. Sheldon, When I was a member of the Columbus HO club back in the 60s we had a member that completely rebuilt a Mantua Mike. He added a new cowcatcher,added several Kemtron detail parts, made a new cab from brass stock and what impress me was the flying pumps mounted on the front of the boiler.. I never will forget that engine.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I do think the Mantua locos could be easily improved by retooling the boilers with just a few separately applied details replacing some of the cast on details and it would make a world of difference.
Sheldon, When I was a member of the Columbus HO club back in the 60s we had a member that completely rebuilt a Mantua Mike. He added a new cowcatcher,added several Kemtron detail parts, made a new cab from brass stock and what impress me was the flying pumps mounted on the front of the boiler.. I never will forget that engine.
Did it look something like this? https://issuu.com/trainresource/docs/tyco_mike_rm_v6_n1_jan_1976-online
Close but, he added the flying pumps, new cab,high mounted highlight and lots of Kemtron detail parts.. When he first brought that engine to the club I thought it was a PFM or Balboa.. It lost all of it Mantua looks since the detal parts improved the looks of the boiler. IIRC he used a United Models 2-8-2 4 wheel tender.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
ATLANTIC CENTRALI do think the Mantua locos could be easily improved by retooling the boilers with just a few separately applied details replacing some of the cast on details and it would make a world of difference.
wjstix ATLANTIC CENTRAL I do think the Mantua locos could be easily improved by retooling the boilers with just a few separately applied details replacing some of the cast on details and it would make a world of difference. Cary/Stewart used to make (maybe still do) a replacement boiler and detail kit for the Mantua 2-8-2 that was basically a USRA light body. It would be nice for some manufacturer to put those together at the factory, kinda like how Athearn Genesis F-units use the Highliner body shell and detailing.
Cary/Stewart used to make (maybe still do) a replacement boiler and detail kit for the Mantua 2-8-2 that was basically a USRA light body. It would be nice for some manufacturer to put those together at the factory, kinda like how Athearn Genesis F-units use the Highliner body shell and detailing.
Yeah I really want a simple yet fine RTR Diecast USRA locomotive that is like the simple end of the HO Spectrum Examples being Mantua, Walthers Mainline, or Athearn Roundhouse only they are made domestically rather than foreignly and they can be easily disassembled and reassembled and also have the novelty of being rugged and able to modify and move or add detail parts arround.I would also love it if they could have upgrades to look a bit more serious like a fine brass pilot, cab, and tender.
Bachmann Spectrum also included the Shay, the odd Chinese 2-8-2, Richmond 4-4-0, and Modern 4-4-0, but yea I agree, I love their spectrum engines, especially considering the fact that they made so many that the used market is full of em and for cheap too!
Lionel isn't afraid of re-releasing engines from ancient tooling...their entry line of LionChief plus steam engines is literally from Postwar Lionel moldings.
For example, this Lionchief Plus 4-6-2 is the same as the Postwar Lionel 4-6-4 made in 1953!!
You'll find the same for their Lionchief 4-6-4, 2-8-4, or etc are all from old castings...just compare images.
Obviously there's nothing wrong with using old castings for $$$ entry level sets, but you'd think eventually, they will retire stuff made back in 1950s.
Charles
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Modeling the Santa Fe & Pennsylvania in HO
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ATLANTIC CENTRAL Great point Sheldon, Bachmann has done a nice job in the past 20 years. I have several and never a issue. Lionel will have to follow Bachmanns lead of they want to be successful. Dave s ATLANTIC CENTRAL BayCoastLimited ATLANTIC CENTRAL Just to be clear about Bachmann, a fact so many people cannot seem to grasp, they make products at every level, entry, mid grade and high end. Exactly this. It seems many people forget this, Bachmann is no longer the cheap expendable quality of the 80s, today they are up there with Athearn and Walthers (mainline). I have their streamlined PRR K4 with TCS Wowsound. Smooth running, great sound and amazing detail, if a bit light on the pulling power. Not to mention their ACS-64 and SC-44. Even some of their entry level stuff can be good with a little weathering and modifications. And if you include the totality of what they have made in the last 20 years, the list is an impressive selection of nice models. Spectrum and improved regular line steam: 4-8-2 USRA HEAVY 4-8-2 USRA LIGHT 2-8-0 2-10-2 USRA LIGHT B&O EM-1 2-8-8-4 PRR K-4 (various versions and improvements) 2-10-0 RUSSIAN 0-6-0 tank engine 4-6-0 SP GS-4 2-6-6-2 (USRA/C&O) N&W J 2-8-4 with correct domes and other details, C&O, PM, NKP 2-8-2 USRA LIGHT 4-6-2 USRA LIGHT That's a pretty impressive list of every day, mostly medium sized, practical steam locos. Rather than the parade of giant "famous" locos we see from the other steam manufacturers. And this is the problem for LIONEL, they need to do just as good a job as Bachmann (regular line) detail wise and running quality wise, if they expect to do well. Sheldon BayCoastLimited ATLANTIC CENTRAL Just to be clear about Bachmann, a fact so many people cannot seem to grasp, they make products at every level, entry, mid grade and high end. Exactly this. It seems many people forget this, Bachmann is no longer the cheap expendable quality of the 80s, today they are up there with Athearn and Walthers (mainline). I have their streamlined PRR K4 with TCS Wowsound. Smooth running, great sound and amazing detail, if a bit light on the pulling power. Not to mention their ACS-64 and SC-44. Even some of their entry level stuff can be good with a little weathering and modifications. And if you include the totality of what they have made in the last 20 years, the list is an impressive selection of nice models. Spectrum and improved regular line steam: 4-8-2 USRA HEAVY 4-8-2 USRA LIGHT 2-8-0 2-10-2 USRA LIGHT B&O EM-1 2-8-8-4 PRR K-4 (various versions and improvements) 2-10-0 RUSSIAN 0-6-0 tank engine 4-6-0 SP GS-4 2-6-6-2 (USRA/C&O) N&W J 2-8-4 with correct domes and other details, C&O, PM, NKP 2-8-2 USRA LIGHT 4-6-2 USRA LIGHT That's a pretty impressive list of every day, mostly medium sized, practical steam locos. Rather than the parade of giant "famous" locos we see from the other steam manufacturers. And this is the problem for LIONEL, they need to do just as good a job as Bachmann (regular line) detail wise and running quality wise, if they expect to do well. Sheldon
Great point Sheldon, Bachmann has done a nice job in the past 20 years. I have several and never a issue. Lionel will have to follow Bachmanns lead of they want to be successful.
Dave
s
ATLANTIC CENTRAL BayCoastLimited ATLANTIC CENTRAL Just to be clear about Bachmann, a fact so many people cannot seem to grasp, they make products at every level, entry, mid grade and high end. Exactly this. It seems many people forget this, Bachmann is no longer the cheap expendable quality of the 80s, today they are up there with Athearn and Walthers (mainline). I have their streamlined PRR K4 with TCS Wowsound. Smooth running, great sound and amazing detail, if a bit light on the pulling power. Not to mention their ACS-64 and SC-44. Even some of their entry level stuff can be good with a little weathering and modifications. And if you include the totality of what they have made in the last 20 years, the list is an impressive selection of nice models. Spectrum and improved regular line steam: 4-8-2 USRA HEAVY 4-8-2 USRA LIGHT 2-8-0 2-10-2 USRA LIGHT B&O EM-1 2-8-8-4 PRR K-4 (various versions and improvements) 2-10-0 RUSSIAN 0-6-0 tank engine 4-6-0 SP GS-4 2-6-6-2 (USRA/C&O) N&W J 2-8-4 with correct domes and other details, C&O, PM, NKP 2-8-2 USRA LIGHT 4-6-2 USRA LIGHT That's a pretty impressive list of every day, mostly medium sized, practical steam locos. Rather than the parade of giant "famous" locos we see from the other steam manufacturers. And this is the problem for LIONEL, they need to do just as good a job as Bachmann (regular line) detail wise and running quality wise, if they expect to do well. Sheldon
BayCoastLimited ATLANTIC CENTRAL Just to be clear about Bachmann, a fact so many people cannot seem to grasp, they make products at every level, entry, mid grade and high end. Exactly this. It seems many people forget this, Bachmann is no longer the cheap expendable quality of the 80s, today they are up there with Athearn and Walthers (mainline). I have their streamlined PRR K4 with TCS Wowsound. Smooth running, great sound and amazing detail, if a bit light on the pulling power. Not to mention their ACS-64 and SC-44. Even some of their entry level stuff can be good with a little weathering and modifications.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Just to be clear about Bachmann, a fact so many people cannot seem to grasp, they make products at every level, entry, mid grade and high end.
Exactly this. It seems many people forget this, Bachmann is no longer the cheap expendable quality of the 80s, today they are up there with Athearn and Walthers (mainline). I have their streamlined PRR K4 with TCS Wowsound. Smooth running, great sound and amazing detail, if a bit light on the pulling power. Not to mention their ACS-64 and SC-44. Even some of their entry level stuff can be good with a little weathering and modifications.
And if you include the totality of what they have made in the last 20 years, the list is an impressive selection of nice models.
Spectrum and improved regular line steam:
4-8-2 USRA HEAVY
4-8-2 USRA LIGHT
2-8-0
2-10-2 USRA LIGHT
B&O EM-1 2-8-8-4
PRR K-4 (various versions and improvements)
2-10-0 RUSSIAN
0-6-0 tank engine
4-6-0
SP GS-4
2-6-6-2 (USRA/C&O)
N&W J
2-8-4 with correct domes and other details, C&O, PM, NKP
2-8-2 USRA LIGHT
4-6-2 USRA LIGHT
That's a pretty impressive list of every day, mostly medium sized, practical steam locos. Rather than the parade of giant "famous" locos we see from the other steam manufacturers.
And this is the problem for LIONEL, they need to do just as good a job as Bachmann (regular line) detail wise and running quality wise, if they expect to do well.
Sheldon
Lets see, another "USRA Light Mikado" model...
For that price I can buy either of the following:
1) Oriental Powerhouse brass hybrid USRA light 2-8-2 with slight better detail, incredible pulling power, and an easy to service mechanism.
2) Sunset/Samhongsa 1980s run brass USRA 2-8-2 with much better detail and a very smooth mechanism.
I will be passing on this offering.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
ATLANTIC CENTRALJust to be clear about Bachmann, a fact so many people cannot seem to grasp, they make products at every level, entry, mid grade and high end.
doctorwayne wjstix Cary/Stewart used to make (maybe still do) a replacement boiler and detail kit for the Mantua 2-8-2 that was basically a USRA light body.... Bowser bought both of those companies some years ago, and continued offering the USRA boiler castings for some time. To the best of my knowledge, I bought the last one they had, offered in a "clearance" sale of discontinued items, quite a few years ago. I eventually gave it to a friend.I recently received notice of another Bowser on-line sale of discontinued boiler castings, but none were the Cary offering. Wayne
wjstix Cary/Stewart used to make (maybe still do) a replacement boiler and detail kit for the Mantua 2-8-2 that was basically a USRA light body....
Bowser bought both of those companies some years ago, and continued offering the USRA boiler castings for some time. To the best of my knowledge, I bought the last one they had, offered in a "clearance" sale of discontinued items, quite a few years ago. I eventually gave it to a friend.I recently received notice of another Bowser on-line sale of discontinued boiler castings, but none were the Cary offering.
Wayne
I found some Cary boilers on eBay. I had a Mantua Mikado with a damaged boiler and cab, and mounted a USRA boiler. I upgraded the motor with supermagnets, cut a piece of styrene to be a tender floor, and installed a decoder in the tender:
It also came with a bag of brass details, which I have been installing (slowly):
Gary
Well, it would be ok with me if LIONEL proves me wrong. I was working in hobby shops in the seventies and watched Mantua/Tyco start to fade in popularity then.
After buying it back from Consolidated Foods in 1977, and doing some upgrades, the Tyler family had an ok run with these products in the 80's, until the high detail revolution, Model Power never seemed to be doing all that well while they had it for 14 years, and MRC clearly did nothing but finish selling off the Model Power stuff already in the pipeline.
I have a sentimental attachment to these products, I had the Mikado, Pacific, big six and other stuff as a teen modeler. But even in the budget/entry category times have changed.
We will see.
Just to be clear about Bachmann, a fact so many people cannot seem to grasp, they make products at every level, entry, mid grade and high end.
There is nothing "lower end" about a Bachmann EM-1, or most of the items that have been marketed under the Spectrum Line, and a good number of the regular line models are nearly as good.
And companies like BLI who have a "high end" reputation, have long ago "cheapened up" the detail level of some items like their completely "generic" USRA Mikado and Pacific.
This reinforces a view I have held for decades, you have to judge the quality and detail of each item on it's own merits, you cannot assume that every product from a particular brand is always at the same "level".
I do think the Mantua locos could be easily improved by retooling the boilers with just a few separately applied details replacing some of the cast on details and it would make a world of difference.
I think Lionel knows the exact market they are going after. The first engines from the old Mantua molds may be dated but they wil be lower priced dcc, dc and blue tooth with a few upgrades here and there to the tooling. Don't discount what Lionel is doing.
The lower end of the market is much larger then the higher end. Rarely is the lower end talked about on this forum. How many times is Bachmann, lifelike and others talked about? I'm not saying we should talk about the likes of tyco or starter sets everyday but we support the people that do without a condescending attitude. After all this is about model trains so let's include all.
I agree with what Sheldon says about the different market expectations. I was recently binge watching "Sam's Trains" on youtube. He does a ton of high quality UK Model train reviews. It is pretty obvious that having all details, mechanism, paint, etc being prestine is very important in his scoring system. I doubt he has ever messed with the insides(gear repair, kitbashing, adding DCC, etc)of any of his 300+ engine fleet.
However, I must agree there is a huge market of people who are willing to pay for overpriced, flashy, unrealistic train sets...consumers..."people who will run it for a season and never run it again" type people who aren't vocal in these forums that Lionel are milking for cash.
And that's a real shame.
Actually I would have to say the toy side of HO scale is much bigger than the serious model railroader side. I've helped at a local hobby shop at Christmas time. I was amazed at how much Model Power and Bachman was sold compared to the Atlas/Athearn Genesis Broadway and other serious prototype equipment. The stuff was flying off the shelves especially the military stuff. There is a market for that kind of trains and I know a few people at Lionel who are also serious modelers and they do intend to enter that market in the future. The more manufacturers that are in the HO scale hobby the better off for all of us remember that ! -- Ken
Although I have to say when I was 8 years old, shooting the exploding box car with the missile fromt he missile car was extremely satisfying.... Those were from the 1957 or so first shot at HO by Lionel. I got a pretty penny for those plus the atomic flat car a number of years ago when I sold them on eBay - there IS a market for that sort of thing but, as you say, it is VERY small. I think I only had 2 bidders on each item, or they would have gone pretty cheap. I still have the section gang car, we used to have that on a track halfway up the mountain on our holiday family room layout. I remember when my dad put the track in for it - dead short. He scratched his head for a while, then realized that the track nails he used went right through the plaster - into the metal screen underneath it.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Tinplate Toddler We have been discussing MTH/Lionel´s product and business philosophy in epic length in this forum and, as I read it, the common denominator of said discussions is, that they are doing it all wrong. Really? There are still in business, so someone must like what they have to offer.
We have been discussing MTH/Lionel´s product and business philosophy in epic length in this forum and, as I read it, the common denominator of said discussions is, that they are doing it all wrong.
Really?
There are still in business, so someone must like what they have to offer.
They are doing it all wrong in HO, clearly evident by their on again, off again, limited selection of HO products.
They make their money in O gauge, they always have.
They understand those buyers.
Their problem in HO is that they think HO buyers are like O gauge buyers.
They do not understand, or want to admit, the difference in these two segments of the hobby.
The market here in the US, for HO trains similar to Marklin, that is a RTR complete "system" product line, is VERY SMALL.
Just look at the photos posted on this form. 99% are "craftsman" type layouts, and the craftsmanship is very high quality. I don't see any "snap together" track systems, few "RTR" structures, or other "toy like" features typically associated with O gauge high rail or HO systems like Marklin.
I'm not being critical of European RTR modeling or typical O gauge modeling.
I'm just saying they are different styles/approaches to this hobby that are reflected in the products offered to those various segments of the market.
But the market for a North American prototype version of Marklin in HO, or for a "scaled down" version of LIONEL O gauge, is VERY SMALL, yet that is exactly the kind of HO products Lionel has always offered.
And that is why they always fail.
AND, there are way less parents buying train sets for children, which also dramaticly limits the market for this type of product.
Very few people here in the US wants HO "toy trains", most want HO "model trains". Lionel insists on being in the "HO toy train" business everytime they venture into HO.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
What about the Lionel rolling stock? Is that also reworked Mantua?
Lefty
Well Lionel should make parts for the old stuff because some modelers like me still use mantua locomotives.
Some of us want to upgrade our engines. I had a discussion a few months back about the general and it being possible to have the motor in the loco rather than the tender. This would be a perfect time to offer upgrades.
Personally I want someone to make Mantua Styled USRA lights with new molds.
Ya the detailing level is outdated, but for a DCC/sound/bluetooth-ap equipped engine, the list price isn't bad. I would have started with one of the later, more detailed engines, like the 4-4-2 or 2-6-6-2. On the GN 2-8-2 I would have used a different tender too - many used long Vandy tenders (which Mantua made); the USRA heavy engines used a shorter rectangular tender with four-wheel trucks.
Reliable, smooth drive, powerful, no small detail parts that break... nothing wrong with that. I know a few folks interested in steam but have been burnt with expensive lemons. And most modelers won't even try to fix the most minor problem. God knows how many new engines I adjusted or fixed after only a few years of light operation. I think there is a niche for these modelers who just want to run trains.
I will be curious to see what the street prices will be. I know that there is still a decent supply on the used market, but I think most people like to buy new from a reliable source (same group as above). I am curious to see how successful they will be.
Simon
Andrew Falconer Each time they get into HO scale there are new people working at Lionel. That change over in staff and the change in production location will affect how they produce and price the items. Lionel is closed for the month of April 2020.
Each time they get into HO scale there are new people working at Lionel.
That change over in staff and the change in production location will affect how they produce and price the items.
Lionel is closed for the month of April 2020.
If that were true you would expect to see some change in their approach? Are they not smart enough to hire one person who knows a little something about the HO model train hobby? Because, it really is a different hobby than the O gauge/three rail model train hobby.
But it looks like they have the same "view" of HO that they had 50 years ago?
That it is just a smaller version of what they sell in high rail.
The "collector/toy" market in HO has always been small and volatile. While there is a "new collector market" for the high detail RTR locos of the last 15-20 years in HO, LIONEL clearly does not understand that part of the market either.
That market requires high detail and high prototype accuracy, something LIONEL has never really accomplished in HO.
My guess, these ex Mantua locos can be manufactured cheap, but with a certain "high quality" for what they are (good motors, correct assembly), largely because of their simplicity.
LIONEL fails to realize the market is largely too sophisticated for this 70 year old product and simply has no interest in a generic locomotive with very little detail.
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
I have one of the Tyco kit versions with the original boiler that I paid only $3.00 for at a swap meet about a year or two ago. It's built like a tank, runs good, (with the original open frame motor, I might add) and could pull your socks off, but I would never pay $290.00 + tax for a new one. Even with all the upgrades, it's way over-priced if you ask me. Especially when you can buy the original and easily upgradable ones on sites like ebay and at local hobby shops and swap meets for dirt cheap. I agree that Lionel just doesn't seem to fully understand the HO market.
selector I wonder if they hope the appeal will fall on the Olde Tymers who used to run such engines, now long gone, and who might hope to capture that thrill of yesteryear when they were 10 and Mom 'n Pop set up a rudimentary layout one Christmas eve after the kids had fallen asleep. It's probably going to be very robust, maybe quite heavy, probably DCC-ready (? haven't looked). Nostalgia, IOW, might be the catalyst they hope will earn them a few thousand sales.
I wonder if they hope the appeal will fall on the Olde Tymers who used to run such engines, now long gone, and who might hope to capture that thrill of yesteryear when they were 10 and Mom 'n Pop set up a rudimentary layout one Christmas eve after the kids had fallen asleep. It's probably going to be very robust, maybe quite heavy, probably DCC-ready (? haven't looked).
Nostalgia, IOW, might be the catalyst they hope will earn them a few thousand sales.
Back in the day a lot of scratch builders including my dad would use a Mantua 2-8-2, 4-6-2 or the 0-4-0 drives for powering their locomotives.
The last scratch built engine my dad made was a 0-8-0 and for power he use a 2-8-2 drive. A common practice back then in making a 0-8-0 was not using the pony and trailing truck of a 2-8-2.. Of course some of those old masters made their own frames.
Years ago, Märklin began to release limited editions of replicas of "classic" or iconic engines, like the famous Swiss crocodile and others. They had modern drives, Märklin´s proprietary DCC system and sound. They sold very well to collectors maintaining fond memories of their beginning as model railroaders.
I imagine Mike is aiming at the same set of "nostalgic" collectors.
This doesn't seem like something that's gonna make it! HO guys will want more detail and more accuracy, which I don't like Lionel understands...
And the price looks very high, less than $100 cheaper than a much better BLI model.
When I look at the picture the locomotive just loois a bit wrong...
Well, I'll never buy this (even if I have 289.99 to spend on one locomotive!), but I am interested to see who it will sell to.
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!