More good RTR stuff also means I don't have to worry about a plain old C&NW GP7 and devote my scarce modeling time to things like the ex-Katy EMD repowered Baldwin AS-616.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
In model railroading, it's all good.
Whether or not there's been a "return" to hand's on modeling, the perception of what's hot in the market is largely driven by advertising and other forms of marketing. When was the last time you saw an ad for a new rolling stock or loco kit? On the other hand, RTR new stuff fills the pages of mags and websites.
That said, people have lots of options in how they go about the hobby. Nothing wrong with RTR, it just saves time for more kit and scratch building. It used to be you HAD to build stuff to run it. Now that's an option, at least for something common.
But the builders among us never went away. As was thoughtfully mentioned, 3D printing is but one technology that is coming on strong. Traditional scratchbuilding remains strong, if the materials are available. If not, there is the internet and more is available than ever.
The difference now is that people build because they WANT to. That in itself means that people tend to take it more seriously, than just as a means to get there. Whatever the case, we're pretty blessed with everything, whether to build or RTR.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
EilifAt some point we'll hit the sweet spot where a printer hits all three factors of being... -easy to use and reliable -affordable -able to print a truely (or very very nearly) smooth surface ... and then we'll be off to the races.
We have already reached this point, but ...
... you need to have quite some knowledge in handling a CAD system!
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
NVSRR i can see the small guys going to all 3d. Those cottage industry company ads changing from a website to order to a website that links to shapeways or similar outsource producer if the little guy didnt invest in a printer. All in all. This hobby will most likely see that as the future. Rtr will stay with the larger quantity items, line usra locos or sd40-2 type diesels where whitcomb center cabs and other lesser demand will go to print on demand
i can see the small guys going to all 3d. Those cottage industry company ads changing from a website to order to a website that links to shapeways or similar outsource producer if the little guy didnt invest in a printer. All in all. This hobby will most likely see that as the future. Rtr will stay with the larger quantity items, line usra locos or sd40-2 type diesels where whitcomb center cabs and other lesser demand will go to print on demand
I wouldn't be at all surprised. At some point we'll hit the sweet spot where a printer hits all three factors of being...
-easy to use and reliable
-affordable
-able to print a truely (or very very nearly) smooth surface
... and then we'll be off to the races.
Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad for Chicago Trainspotting and Budget Model Railroading.
I don´t think I am in a position to foresee the future of our hobby and the industry catering it. Change in manufacturing is happening at an unbelievalble speed. I have seen guys printing not only gear boxes, but complete drive mechanism (w/o the motor), engine shells and components in a quality which is breathtaking. CAD skills will become a must - but "old" virtues, i.e.skills in woodworking, soldering etc. will remain.
In my age, I am living in the present, not in the future!
Eilif NVSRR We all know how expensive everything is getting. Smaller layouts more directed at a theme and location that helps limit spending on unnecessary stuff that is becoming the norm. With that, scratchbuilding and kitbashing being a better use of materials and good at spreading the financial impact out of more time. The appeal for it is there in unique location specific structures and less money. There are plenty of youtube videos with scratchbuilding/kitbashing as well. Is scratchbuilding/kitbashing slowly coming back? For the very small layout, there is alot to be said for spreading cost over time. In general, I'm a bit skeptical of the idea that scratchbuilding is a way to save money. If you're going for a well detailed building, there's alot of supplies to be purchased unless you're planning on building everyting from rod and sheet and doing ALOT of scribing. For my money (and my time), kit bashing is the path to value for those who want something different, but don't have the time or inclination to scratchbuild. There are still alot of basic buildings that aren't very expensive. Additionally, used, built buildings don't go for much at all, so the hobbyist who is willing to chop-and-reassemble can really stretch their hobby dollar and come up with something unique. All this said, I never get disappointed seeing stock kits on a layout. Lastly, lastly, I agree that 3d printing is going to really change the game. It's still a bit outside of most folks ability or interest, but considering what has gone before, in 10 years the price, quality and accessibility of 3d printing will incredible.
NVSRR We all know how expensive everything is getting. Smaller layouts more directed at a theme and location that helps limit spending on unnecessary stuff that is becoming the norm. With that, scratchbuilding and kitbashing being a better use of materials and good at spreading the financial impact out of more time. The appeal for it is there in unique location specific structures and less money. There are plenty of youtube videos with scratchbuilding/kitbashing as well. Is scratchbuilding/kitbashing slowly coming back?
We all know how expensive everything is getting. Smaller layouts more directed at a theme and location that helps limit spending on unnecessary stuff that is becoming the norm. With that, scratchbuilding and kitbashing being a better use of materials and good at spreading the financial impact out of more time. The appeal for it is there in unique location specific structures and less money. There are plenty of youtube videos with scratchbuilding/kitbashing as well. Is scratchbuilding/kitbashing slowly coming back?
For the very small layout, there is alot to be said for spreading cost over time.
In general, I'm a bit skeptical of the idea that scratchbuilding is a way to save money. If you're going for a well detailed building, there's alot of supplies to be purchased unless you're planning on building everyting from rod and sheet and doing ALOT of scribing.
For my money (and my time), kit bashing is the path to value for those who want something different, but don't have the time or inclination to scratchbuild. There are still alot of basic buildings that aren't very expensive. Additionally, used, built buildings don't go for much at all, so the hobbyist who is willing to chop-and-reassemble can really stretch their hobby dollar and come up with something unique.
All this said, I never get disappointed seeing stock kits on a layout.
Lastly, lastly, I agree that 3d printing is going to really change the game. It's still a bit outside of most folks ability or interest, but considering what has gone before, in 10 years the price, quality and accessibility of 3d printing will incredible.
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
Bayfield Transfer Railway For those of us interested in operation first and foremost, the plethora of quality RTR products has been a Godsend.
For those of us interested in operation first and foremost, the plethora of quality RTR products has been a Godsend.
i can understand that. For those who dont have the space and time, rtr has its good side.
And dont forget not only print quality has improved but so has the ability to print metal like brass.
Tinplate Toddler Over there, at the other end of the Big Pond, on the rebellious island called United Kingdom, 3D printing has become very popular among the NG railway modelers as a means of creating a plethora of litlle engines based on N scale drive mechanisms. There has been a lot of improvement to the quality of the prints, making Shapeways really look old.
Over there, at the other end of the Big Pond, on the rebellious island called United Kingdom, 3D printing has become very popular among the NG railway modelers as a means of creating a plethora of litlle engines based on N scale drive mechanisms. There has been a lot of improvement to the quality of the prints, making Shapeways really look old.
I find now with shapeways is you have to look closely at the print uality the part is made to. I hve an SW1001 from there that just needs grab irons and test fit to the chasis, the off to the paint shop. Nothing else needed. Where other pieces I got from the need a lot of work.
I am thinking now that 3D is going to be big in the scratchbuilding, even making it easier. Get the detail design from some place like Thingiverse and put the design into your 200 dollar 3d printer and there you go. Warehousing and all that is now an expensive part of parts making, is gone with 3D.
Finding stock material for scratchbuild is tough now. sadly. Used to be in magazines there was the article with scale drawings. the future might be the article with a design download off the site. The younger generation might really get into that aspect. since it involves computers and the ability to create new methods. Lots of room for development.
RTR has its place. but certain segments, like structures are becoming limited and very expensive. While others are going limited run but unique versions of the model are included in the run.
Shane
Mr. Da Stumer, you make a good point, and to those that have access to the equipment, I'm sure it will keep filling nitches in all hobbys, not just model railroading.
I've bought a couple of items from individuals on Shapeway, specifically, a dry bulk trailer. I was gathering the materials to scratch build one, as none are offered commercially.
When I first received it, I was very happy, I even showed pictures of it in here. Now that I have taken a much closer look, I have lots and lots of sanding to do before I even think about painting and further detailing it to my liking.
I may still scratchbuild another, as I have it all planned out. Same way with a certain type of trash container I want to model, EPIC, along with the spine car they ride on.
There are a couple of different Shapeway sellers that have these, but for the cost, I'll get some sheet stock, that I don't already have, and make my own.
I will admit, that 3D is a growing segment.
Mike.
My You Tube
dknelson My kitbashing and scratchbuildng and semi scratchbuilding is virtually all structures. Lately I have been exploring the area of kitbashing or at least modifying laser cut wood kits. It has its own challenges that is for sure. I don't think kitbashing wood/laser cut will ever supplant or become as popular as working with styrene. I especially like the fact that with styrene it is so easy to take what you want from a commercial model or several unrelated models and do the rest with raw material styrene from Plastruct or Evergreen. Dave Nelson
My kitbashing and scratchbuildng and semi scratchbuilding is virtually all structures. Lately I have been exploring the area of kitbashing or at least modifying laser cut wood kits. It has its own challenges that is for sure. I don't think kitbashing wood/laser cut will ever supplant or become as popular as working with styrene. I especially like the fact that with styrene it is so easy to take what you want from a commercial model or several unrelated models and do the rest with raw material styrene from Plastruct or Evergreen.
Dave Nelson
I use to live in an area with a number of hobby shops that all had a fairly large selection of Evergreen, Plastruct, K&S, etc materials. That was very handy to try to find particular size/configuration pieces one needed to kitbash with. Now those shops are disappearing, and trying to obtain some of these materials via mail order is a pain in......I wish I had a whole selection of these materials at table side, but I imagine that might be a little expensive to justify.
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
-Peter. Mantua collector, 3D printing enthusiast, Korail modeler.
NVSRRIs scratchbuilding/kitbashing slowly coming back?
I don't know. When did it leave? I didn't see any eulogies for it.
Seriously, I certainly have never given up on it, although I will admit that it has been a while since I have done any work of that sort, or any modelling at all for that matter except for some scenery work at my ex club. I have recently bought some RTR hoppers. Scratch building those would have been more work than fun.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Been thinking about this; Seams to me that the hobby is the main hub of many different slots [for lack of a better word]
We have the kit builders, bashers, and scratchers, bot in rolling stock and buildings.
We got some who just want to watch a train run. Some who try to get as real as possible in operateions.
We got electronics, 3d printing, the list gos on and on.
Each member of the hobby will fall into his/her most enjoyable place, and perhaps move from one to another. For all kinds of reasons.
My point; how can we say one level is growing or dieing,with so many to join or leave.
Just thinking outloud
Hi all
Kit bashing and scratch building never went away its still around.
I tend to kit build because I can enjoy it twice the build and the making it part of the layout.
These days I look for the un-built older every one used to have them structure kits why because today everyone doesn't have them, and they are usually what I want.
Built and painted properly with the odd detail change and adittion they can look just right.
I do always have at least one thing on a layout that is scratch built, usually something very simple and that is the point of difference that makes the layout mine.
I have been known to change out some detail parts on kits for something that looks a bit better, but nothing I would call kit bashing as such.
I don't mess about with the trains themselves I leave that to people who know what they are doing.
I see no good reason for taking the risk and cutting into a perfectly good train.
All that said I use what skills I have to get the best result I can.
I hate the super expencive modern plonk and play structures, but wait a minute we had certain structures that where pre built or just fell together in the box as pre model railroaders oop's I mean children
So pre built has its place even if as some would say some one elses place
The thing we all have in common is limited budgets and some skills which we use to get the best result we can.
Oh! and we have been know to borrow other peoples skills for the parts we have trouble with.
How ever we get there its all about having fun doing it.
regards John
NVSRR Is scratchbuilding/kitbashing slowly coming back?
No. Scratchbuilding has declined over the years, very few people make all the parts anymore for things like windows, brake cyclinders, etc.
Scratch/parts building where parts are used with basic building supplies like sytrene, wood, and/or brass shapes and sheets is still possible, but parts are less common especially in scales other than HO.
Kitbashing with one or more kits, parts, and basic building supplies still goes on. But while kits are still available rolling stock kits no longer dominate the hobby. And locomotive kits are no longer made in any scale except possibly in a few small niche markets. And the trend in structures is also RTR.
Part of the problem is that RTR is so good that many feel they cannot equal (much less better) it with scratchbuilding, kitbashing, parts building.
So if you enjoy scratchbuilding/kitbashing there is no reason not to do it and there are kindred souls out there. Find some Railroad Prototype Modelers (RPM) meets. It's just not the where most of the hobby is.
The dominate trend in the hobby is RTR especially museum quality.
I agree that this is the best time in the hobby. RTR has made it better. You can pursue the hobby in more ways these days than before. With RTR you can get a larger model railroad up and running with scenery faster than ever. But you can also do a small layout where the focus is on detailing and building individual models. Or anywhere in between.
Personally, I am using all the RTR I can to get a large layout up and running with some very basic scenery. After that I'll get into some scratch/parts building, detailing, etc.
Paul
I prefer kitbashing to kit building, and would have to admit that most of what I, at one time, considered scratchbuilding, was more akin to kitbashing, as I invariably used commercially-available parts along with the usual styrene scratchbuilding supplies - brake gear components, or door and window castings, for example.
While it's possible to make those things, I don't especially enjoy doing so, and don't therefore wish to waste time on them.I recently made some parts to create 7.5 kw generators for passenger and express cars, and admit that they certainly don't match the detail on the ready-to-use ones that are commercially-available.
My reasoning is that I need quite a few of them (16), and the available styrene ones are $6.00(U.S.) each. I've used them in the past, but have the necessary materials on-hand (styrene rod and tubing, and brass tubing in two sizes), which allow me to make a more durable version of them to accommodate the drive-belts, which are made from .003" brass shim-stock.
Besides that, these are underbody details that won't normally be subject to close scrutiny unless I have catastrophic derailments which include roll-overs. Watching them move by in a train, even at eye-level, they should look respectable enough, I think.
Wayne
UNCLEBUTCHI do not build locos or rolling stock
.
For the longest time I did not kitbash rolling stock, then Doctor Wayne posted one of his step-by-step responses, and I was inspired to give it a try.
It was really pretty easy, and I am glad I did it.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I built a handfull of plastic kits,then started bashing then, for no real reason,perhaps bored.
I wanted to try a craftsmen type,but the price scared me off, And then when I looked in a few boxes. , it was a pile of wood and instruction sheet.
So I started scratch building. I found this to be my ''happy place'' within the hobby. I don't use plans,a picture/photo, but most times just an idea.
I've posted a few of my [better?] builds on this forum.I think I'm geting better.
I do not build locos or rolling stock, but hold upmost respect for thouse that do.
For me; the trains are but a reason to build somthing.
I sratchbuild and kitbash to have the models I want, because I enjoy it, and because I do not have a layout right now.
What all this beautiful ready-to-run stuff provides us with is more fully scenicked operating model railroads. If you want to go all the way to the finish line, nothing is stopping you.
If you want to take a slower path, that is fine too.
Tinplate Toddler Please, not another thread on how good the old times were and how bad it is these days. The hobby has changed, but not the worse, rather the better. We have now a much wider selection of locomotives, rolling stock and structures, as well as accessories as ever before and there is enough room left to kitbash, scratchbuild or even buy RTR.
The initial question from the OP asked, is scratchbuilding/kitbashing slowly coming back. My answer is, I don't know. But, whenever a thread of this sort pops up, there is a tendency among some to demean the idea of a layout built to display RTR structures, locomotives and rolling stock. And, for the life of me, I can never understand why.
I have no objection to a good looking layout with out of the box locomotives and rolling stock and some RTR structures. As an MR guy who has scratch built and kitbashed a lot of structures, I only do so when a kit "ready for assembly" is simply not available. On my current layout, I have built a series of large freight houses out of Walthers modulars and styrene sheet (for roofs, loading docks, etc.) I scratchbuilt a large vertical lift bridge because no kit was available.
So, my conclusion is that if something is readily available in RTR or kit form, by all means purchase it. If an item is not readily available to suit your taste, kitbash or scratch build it.
Rich
Alton Junction
Similar experience to Mel. I had never scratch built anything until I put a couple laser kits together. Now almost nothing goes on the layout the isn't scratch built or greatly modified. Most of my purchases are for Evergreen and Plastruc materials along with the paint and glues. It is so much more enjoyable to create something that fits then to fit the layout around a building. YMMV.
TomO
I have done a bit with freight cars, but mostly in the way of adding details or making modest changes. Someone like Dr Wayne can and does make the end result unrecognizing from the original source. I used to do some of that back when I lived near a hobby shop that bought up used stuff and put the nearly unsaleable junk in big boxes for a few bucks. I enjoyed the challenge and the raw materials were so cheap.
There was a time in Model Railroader or RMC where it seemed to happen again and again: they'd publish a nice and elaborate article on how to kitbash the latest EMD or GE diesel, only to have a commerical model be released soon thereafter. Maybe that didn't make the article "moot" but it reduced its importance. I suspect more such articles sat in the files and never got published once the commercial model was released. In today's limited run environment, some fairly rare and obscure versions of locomotives are being released. I think this reduces the motivation to kitbash away from needing/wanting a particular model (maybe better to wait?) to just really enjoying cutting and chopping and such.
This is a round about way of saying that I think a good deal of the current kitbashing of diesels is by modelers who are improving commercial models, or are capturing a very specific modification. The modelers might not think it worthwhile to write that up into articles, or it might be that the major modeling magazines are less interested in such narrow articles.
While there are still some of us here who like to cut & hack away at a perfectly good model, my impression is that more and more people are in the "I want it NOW!" category and simply won't take the time to make/modify something themselves. This is self evident when you speak with most manufacturer reps and they will tell you that RTR outsells kits by far more than a 8-1 or higher margin. Why did Athearn abandon the Blue Boxes? Because RTR outsold them hands down.
That is sad because the hobby seems to be more about collecting than modeling. Fewer and fewer people are developing the skills needed to turn out really nice models of things that simply can't be bought. THAT (in my opinion) is why the cost of model railroading is going higher and higher... because people are willing to shell out more and more $$$ for something that is already built for them.
Don't believe me? Take a look and se how many of the old Bachmann Plasticville structures are sold already assembled! People just aren't willing to take the time... :(
dlm
mbinsewiI never knew that it left!
Me neither (I know this is bad English, please read it as "I did not know it, either)!
Please, not another thread on how good the old times were and how bad it is these days. The hobby has changed, but not the worse, rather the better. We have now a much wider selection of locomotives, rolling stock and structures, as well as accessories as ever before and there is enough room left to kitbash, scratchbuild or even buy RTR.