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LL P2K GP7 Weight Removal

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LL P2K GP7 Weight Removal
Posted by GP025 on Sunday, January 19, 2020 1:21 PM

Afternoon Folks, 

 Trying to remove the weight from the subject loco, I have the 2 screws from either end out, however the 2 larger screws under the fuel tank act as if they are stripped. They will turn but not back out. 

  I tried seperating the frame and weight while backing out the screws with no luck .

  Am I missing something, and/or has this happened to anyone else?

  The purpose is to remove the trucks to find a driveline bind preventing the motor to turn. I already replaced the bad gears. 

  Thanks 

  KT

 

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Posted by mbinsewi on Sunday, January 19, 2020 1:38 PM

You have to get those 2 screws out.  Keep trying.

There are 6 screws that hold the weights. 

https://hoseeker.net/lifelikeenginediagrams/lifelikeproto2000gp7IIpg3.jpg

Screws with the number 18 with a circle around it.

Mike.

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Posted by Wolf359 on Sunday, January 19, 2020 5:03 PM

Have you tried a magnetic screwdriver? I have a little tool I bought awhile back that can magnetize or de-magnetize tools like screwdrivers as needed.

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Posted by BigDaddy on Sunday, January 19, 2020 5:10 PM

I don't remember how many screws, but I did not have a problem.  The micromark screw gripster is useful for my large fingers inserting and removing little screws from tight places.

https://www.micromark.com/Gripster-Holding-Tool-Set-of-3

I picked up one at a train show.  I haven't discovered a need to have 3 sizes.

Henry

COB Potomac & Northern

By the Chesapeake Bay

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Posted by gmpullman on Sunday, January 19, 2020 5:14 PM

mbinsewi
Screws with the number 18 with a circle around it.

I'll have to look at my Geeps later but I believe those two shorter screws by the fuel tank are for mounting the shell to the frame. 

 IMG_2467 by Edmund, on Flickr

Perhaps the weight is simply "stuck" and some careful prying will separate the weight from the chassis. Once you apply a slight prying pressure, continue to turn the longer screws to work them out.

BigDaddy
The micromark screw gripster is useful for my large fingers inserting and removing little screws from tight places.

I agree on the screw grippers, especially for coupler box screws— but— these Life-Like weight screws are recessed and there is very little clearance in the counter-bored hole Sad

I seem to recall the screws are brass, as well (I'm sure of it on the E7-E8 weights)

Good luck, Ed

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Posted by GP025 on Sunday, January 19, 2020 8:16 PM

Thanks for all the replies guys. Anyone know how long these 2 larger screws might be?

Right now I'm of the mind to drill into the side of the weight  (slot it the length of the screw) to push them out from the top

Kevin 

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Posted by mbinsewi on Sunday, January 19, 2020 8:30 PM

When you look at the parts list with numbers, all screws with the number 18 are part of the weight mounting screws.https://hoseeker.net/lifelikeenginediagrams/lifelikeproto2000gp7IIpg4.jpg

After all other screws are out, I'd try to pry up on the weights, and at the same time, try to remove the screws.

Mike.

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Posted by gmpullman on Monday, January 20, 2020 12:05 AM

mbinsewi
When you look at the parts list with numbers, all screws with the number 18 are part of the weight mounting screws.

Except the two that mount the body to the frame.

Below you can see the two, recessed, brass screws in the bottom of the fuel tank. Also note the two rather large holes in the frame that engage the round bosses molded under the walkway near the air reservoir. These require special, wide washer-head, short screws to secure the shell to the frame.

 LL_Proto_Geep0 by Edmund, on Flickr

GP025
Anyone know how long these 2 larger screws might be?

They are 3mm Ø and 15mm long:

 LL_Proto_Geep2 by Edmund, on Flickr

Then there are the two, small, blackened machine screws at the nose, just behind the coupler mounting boss:

 LL_Proto_Geep1 by Edmund, on Flickr

After removal of these four screws, my frame literally dropped off (limited by the truck and motor wires which I did not remove):

 LL_Proto_Geep by Edmund, on Flickr

As myself, Mike and others have suggested, try using toothpicks, a credit card perhaps, or any small wedge to try to place a little upward pressure on the unpainted weight while alternately turning each of the brass screws out.

There are plenty of places where you can easily work a tool in between the weight and the frame.

My GP-9 in the photo is probably 25 years old and those screws look like new. I can't imagine how yours would have become stripped?

Not long ago I bought a pair of L-L FA-1s that were still in shrink wrap. The worm gear bearings had so much corroded bronze mixed with lacquer-like grease that the shafts were locked solid.

 Proto_gear-3 by Edmund, on Flickr

Have you had these Geeps running before or are these a recent acquisition?

Regards, Ed

 

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Posted by GP025 on Monday, January 20, 2020 7:59 AM

  Great photos Ed, just what I was looking for. I have tried prying between the frame and weight with some small screwdrivers while backing out the screws to no avail. 

  These locos were recently purchased off the bay supposedly NIB and don't appear to have ever been run or assembled. There were 2 of them, one had the bad gear syndrome, and then this one that acts like a truck is locked up and I changed the gears on it as well thinking that might be the cause. 

  Your pic of the corroded worm is invaluable. Were you able to clean it up, or did you have to replace the bushings?

Kevin 

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Posted by mbinsewi on Monday, January 20, 2020 8:11 AM

I wonder if it's possible to get a drop or two of something like PB Blaster on the screws, and let it sit.  There must be corrosion holding them in place.

Wondering if you can drill them out, going through the top?  I dunno, just taking some guesses.

The P2K's I had, the grease in the gear towers was like stiff putty.  I didn't have a problem with the weight scews.  Mine were GP 18's, but I'm sure they are the same as the GP 7.

Mike.

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Posted by Lee 1234 on Monday, January 20, 2020 11:43 AM
There are umteen different versions of P2K early GP chassis. Some actually do have six (six) screws holding the weight to the chassis. The two big gold ones, two at the ends and two more that are hidden above the truck or something like that. There are also the screws that go into the shell walkways.

L

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Posted by gmpullman on Monday, January 20, 2020 5:08 PM

GP025
Your pic of the corroded worm is invaluable. Were you able to clean it up, or did you have to replace the bushings?

They cleaned up very nicely and the engines run silky-smooth now. The grease that Life-Like chose back then seems to have reacted with some of the copper compounds in the bearings, that green oxide being a clue. 

 Proto_gear-6 by Edmund, on Flickr

As others have noted, the gearcase grease also tends to thicken to a paste-like consistency. I've always had good luck with Labelle Teflon #106 grease here.

 Proto_gear-4 by Edmund, on Flickr

Drilling out the screws sounds like an exercise in futility to me. If they are truly "stripped" I can not see what would be holding the weight in place. Again, more careful prying at strategic points should loosen it eventually.

Keep in mind that some of the die cast frames of Life-Like locomotives have been known to become very brittle so the location of your prying efforts has to be carefully considered.

Regards, Ed

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Posted by mbinsewi on Monday, January 20, 2020 7:08 PM

I wonder if there's away to get a blade between the weight and the frame and cut them off.

Mike.

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Posted by GP025 on Monday, January 20, 2020 8:47 PM

 I wasn't going to drill the screws themselves, but the weight alongside the screws as it's a softer material. Also pondering on maybe just grinding the heads off the screws.

 Not enough room to get a blade between the weight and frame, I was using some small screwdrivers to pry between as I was backing out the screws, but that didn't do anything either.

 I'll get it sorted out somehow, right now I had to go back to work so it might be sometime before I can follow up.

I sure do appreciate all the help though .

Kevin 

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Posted by peahrens on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 6:27 AM

In the potentially crazy ideas realm:

1.  If the screws turn reasonably easily, use a power driver to spin them fast, perhaps loosening them further so the weight can be pulled / pryed off.

2.  Drill and tap a small hole in the screw head.  Add a small screw, epoxied in place, that is long enough to protrude past the frame bottom.  Use pliers on the added screw head to turn counterclockwise (if clockwise does not work) while pulling outward.  If there were left hand thread small taps & screws there would be no need to use the epoxy. 

Just brainstorming.  The challenge is as interesting as the project!

Paul

Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent

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Posted by Graham Line on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 2:09 PM

Re: the "bronze" bearings for the LL worm screws.  These are the same size and shape as the bearings in Athearn engines, but the Athearns are better quality and not magnetic like the LL pieces. Either way, soak them in alcohol to clean them up and then let them sit in light oil for a day or two.

Regarding the original problem, sometimes there is enough paint on the frame that it "freezes" to the weight.  A little WD-40 or other penetrating oil can loosen the bond.

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Posted by BigDaddy on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 6:02 PM

Graham Line
Regarding the original problem, sometimes there is enough paint on the frame that it "freezes" to the weight. A little WD-40 or other penetrating oil can loosen the bond. Add Quote to your Post

I inherited a Craftsman tool chest that had a "rubber" mat on top.  The rubber was some sort of plastic, like fishing worms, and melted, not from heat, just because it happens.  WD40 took it off along with the paint.

I almost wonder if the PO glued the weight on?

Henry

COB Potomac & Northern

By the Chesapeake Bay

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Posted by mbinsewi on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 7:36 PM

BigDaddy
I almost wonder if the PO glued the weight on?

That is a possibilty.  The scews were stripped, so he wanted to make sure the weight stayed in place.

Could've happened.

Not sure if there's room for this, but I would try see if the trucks can be taken off, by getting the worm gear cover off,  and use my under-cut saw ( used to flush cut trim to the floor, like cutting off the bottom of a door jamb for new flooring) and see if I coud cut between the weight and the frame.

It's been awhile since I've had my P2K GP18's apart to see if this is possible.

Just a thought.

Mike.

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Posted by GP025 on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:39 AM

You know, I hadn't thought of that, but it is a possibility as I couldn't get any movement of the weight off the frame, but it would be the cleanest glue job I have ever seen. 

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