Sounds like you found good advice and a good starting point.
Good luck!
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Thanks, Kevin! Super helpful info. Now I can hack away at locomotives and actually maybe get what I'm looking for! But seriously, I'll have to try that route at some point, I'm sure.
Storytime:
Having decided that I haven't done nearly enough research to justify hacking apart a $150+ locomotive, I jumped on the googlenet and searched "scratchbuilding n scale locomotives" or something like that. This led me to an old (2010) Trainboard forum thread that consisted almost entirely of photos of people's kitbashes and scratchbuilds. Well, lo and behold, the 7th(?) post is from Rick Straw, the very modeler mentioned by someone else up above! Not only that, but it's the exact same locomotive! So I registered for an account (that was an adventure) and shot him a message. Turns out, he published an article about it in the NTRAK steam annual for 2016! He sent me the article, and it seems to be a fairly doable 'bash. Now I just have to find a consolidation for a decent price, preferably without sound....
Link to the trainboard scratchbuilding thread!
https://www.trainboard.com/highball/index.php?threads/n-scale-steam-kitbashes-anyone.51189/
Currently dreaming in the parents' basement...
1) When I need to cut a chassis I use hand tools. A coarse tooth hacksaw (14-16 TPI is good) and use a good quality file for non-ferrous metals. Keep a file card handy, you will use it a lot. Try to avoid cutting where the wheels, gears, and motor go.
I use really big tools for chassis work. This is not a place for whimpy precision tools, break out the good nicholson files and go to town. The file I use for chassis is 16 inches long.
2) Do you need to shorten the boiler? Is so, cut right behind the smokebox and remove material from the front jacketed part of the boiler.
You might need to horten the firebox since you are removing the trailing truck. Hopefully the cab comes off, and you and attack the firebox without it in the way.
3) I would not attempt to change the mechanism unless you have done steam locomotive conversions before. For this project, if it is an early one for you, I would leave these alone.
Wow. I had a whole slew of stuff typed up and my internet conked out.
I appreciate all of the work everyone has put into this. Seriously, this is a great community.
I gotta say, I think doctorwayne's idea of chopping down a Bachmann 4-8-2 is my best option, both economically and skill-wise (seeing as my success rate for even minor loco repair beyond cosmetics is somewhere around 60%). On a college student budget, hunting down a lot of imported European parts just isn't economically viable.
That said, I do have a few follow-up questions:
1. Cutting the chassis/weight: How? And where? Judging by the photos provided by the all-knowing Spookshow, it wouldn't be a simple hack job. I suppose a rotary tool would be called for? *Edit: At first glance, I thought the chassis had the same angles built into it as the boiler. That's not the case, and the motor also seems to be mounted further ahead of where I initially thought. So maybe this is a non-issue?
2. Cutting the shell: Again, how and where? I guess it would be a good plan to have a few extras hanging around.
3. Driver size. IIRC, the Mountain has drivers somewhere in the 60-80 inch "dedicated passenger loco" range. Could I swap them out for a smaller set without having to fiddle with/make valve gear? (Understanding, of course, that the gear would have to come off the old wheels to go onto said new wheels.)
Again, thanks everyone!
A 4-8-2 in N scale
Here are some easy kitbash using existing frame from other models and US boiler
Kato and Micro Ace offer very nice model of japanese steam locomotives.
These models are made in 1/150 scale but some of these models have diameter wheels which are a perfect match of US steam locomotives in N scale.
These models are perfect runner, far better than any other steam model in N scale with excellent drive system and quality Kato motors; some have flywheels; they all use a split frame and all the wheels take electricity
Putting a Japanese frame with his excellent running characteristics under a US N scale boiler is quiet easy; tender are easy to find from old Rivarossi one or the much better Bachmann tender offered separately.
Steam cylinder are a bit different but this can be easily corrected with putty and piece of styrene.
Here are some comparaison of all the standard USRA wheels diameter in N scale versus some of the Kato models japanese locomotive,
Sorry the measurements are in mm ( I'm a metric man) but one inch is 25.4mm, one meter is 1000 mm, one cm is 10mm
1. USRA standard design locomotives
Type Real N scale
USRA Pacific 1.854 mm 11,58 mm
USRA Mikado H et L 1.600 mm 10,00 mm
USRA Switcher 0-8-0 1.295 mm 8,00 mm
USRA Y 2-8-8-2 1.448 mm 9,00 mm
Japanese Locomotive
Type Real N scale (1/150)
D 51 2-8-2 1.400 mm 8,75 mm
D 61 2-8-2 1.400 mm 8,75 mm
C 11 2-6-4 1.520 mm 9,50 mm
C 50 2-6-0 1.600 mm 10,00 mm
C 57 4-6-0 1.750 mm 10,93 mm
C 58 2-6-2 1.520 mm 9,50 mm
2600 0-8-0 1.340 mm 8,40 mm
It's clear some of the Japanese models are a perfect match of the USRA design and the wheel diameter are close to not say the perfect scale match.
Most of these models are easy to fund on Ebay or even in USA or Canada; you can easily obtain them from Japan.
Its important to mention the possibility also exist for HO scale in the same way with excellent drive systems.
caldreamerBachmann makes an scale 2-10-2. It looks like you can put the four wheel pilot truck ahead of the cylenenders. Would mean extending the fram a little....
It won't really be a good representation of the prototype with the entire lead truck ahead of the cylinders, not only incorrect, but perhaps not very good for tracking performance, either.I still think that modifying a Mountain (4-8-2) is the easiest course to follow, as it needs no modifications to the running gear, and only an insignificant chopping-off of the rear of the loco's frame.
Modifying the boiler to shorten it and move the cab and firebox forward is mostly cosmetic work.
Bachmann offers a USRA Light Mountain in N scale....
SodjI recently learned of the existence of the Mastodon type locomotives and thought "oooh shiny and different!" I'd like to have one for my freelance (n scale) railroad in the development stages, but no one makes one
...so what's holding you back?
Wayne
Bachmann makes an scale 2-10-2. It looks like you can put the four wheel pilot truck ahead of the cylenenders. Would mean extending the fram a little, but that should be no problem. Here is a link to one one sale on Ebay. It is the secomd one down. Click on the picture to see a larger view.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=2-10-2+n+scale&_sacat=0
Caldreamer
So, remembering that the OP wants to do this in N scale I started to research N scale steam current and past that would be good fodder for a kitbash. And yes you have to be prepared to consider European prototype models for a chassis if need be.
This turns out to not be the world of kitbashing that I grew up with and enjoyed because the common theme (for me at least) was that, if it took a few tries to get it right, at least you wouldn't have all that much invested in it. List prices were within reason and basket case steam was so common and cheap at swap meets. Those days are gone. And the European steam that could be considered is SO pricey, and SO much of it would seemingly have to be tossed or at least sit forever in the scrap bin that to me the game does not look worth the candle.
Now if we were talking HO I'd think about the Varney "Old Lady" 2-8-0, in metal, which was their so-called "Casey Jones" 4-6-0 boiler and cab on a new chassis. Still seen at swap meets. To my eye the "Old Lady" 2-8-0 always looked a bit wrong, as if too much boiler was on too short a wheelbase. Thus I would seem fairly doable to make room for a 2 axle pilot truck making a 4-8-0 of vaguely N&W lines (very vague but vague resemblance is the avid kitbasher's refuge).
To me the closest impression I get for N scale 2-8-0s that also somehow look like they have some "room to spare" is the Roundhouse N scale 2-8-0. But I am relying on photos, not having one in hand to evaluate. Bachmann had a somewhat similar looking train-set quality 2-8-0 (the "old" Bachmann era) which does not give me that same "room to spare" feeling but again I am relying on photos.
There are 2-8-0s and 2-10-0s (Russian decapod) in N scale but to my eyes their proportions look so right for the wheel arrangement that I do not get that same sense that a two axle pilot truck could be interjected into the proceedings. And the prices! I would want a high certainty of success, and frankly, kitbashing to me ceases to be fun when the almost inevitable from time to time "well, THAT didn't work" ends up being so darned expensive.
Dave Nelson
I think, if I ever start this project, I would use a Bachmann 2-10-0 and remove a set of drivers and change the pilto truck to make it a 4-8-0.
I would also change the domes.
Here are some project I have in hand for future N scale locomotive kitbash.
First a future 4-10-2 or 2-10-0/2 dont know; it will start from this Minitrix steam locomotive which has a massive boiler in a 2-10-2 arragement; the look of a US mastodont like the GD one is not far.
The cabin and pilot need to changed and modified like domes, real handrails added, some detailled compressors and pump will be added and a Bachmann tender; this will give a full electrical contact locomotives; the motor will be changed with a Kato one and if place permit it with a flywheel; the finished model will be close to a Missabae 2-10-2 brute.
This is the starting model ( this model exist also in HO scale by Roco and Trix)
Here is the HO Roco model
This is the Minitrix model of this locomotive,
My second project is a more little locomotive a 0-8-0 switcher.
Life Like has produced in HO and N scale a magnificient model of this locomotives.
Unfortunately, when Atlas has buy the N scale line of Life Like from Walthers, the tools and parts mold of the 0-8-0 have dissappear, so probably this model will be never produced again in N scale.
I need such locomotives for my yard, I have four 0-8-0 from life like, but I need more.
The starting model is the Kato 9600 N scale japanese locomotive with a 2-8-0 wheel arragement, I will keep only the frame and the motor; this little jewel is recognized has an extraordinary running model like all the Kato locmotives in N scale and in HO; this kitbash was explained years ago in the N track magazine and in the N track steam review; some other Kato japanese models are excellent donor for kibashing fine N scale steam runner.
This Kato frame go easily on a old 0-6-0 US steam boiler from Minitrix; I have a few of these old locomotives in a box but this model is a hybryd with a Belpaire firebox.
So I want to go a step further and with the help of a friend which is a genious for 3D printing, may be we will try to produce a 3D boiler from a Life Like one; the 3D resin printer we have now produce extremely fine looking model even in N scale; again this locomotive will have a short Bachmann tender.
This is the Kato japanese donor. ( this model exist in HO too)
The unfortunately disappear N scale model of the US prototype
Mantua/Tyco had a 4-8-0 kit/RTR version available for years. You can find them on EBay even now. Put an MDC Harriman boiler on it and you've got a near dead ringer for an SP TW-8.
Andre.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TYCO-HO-1880-Twelve-Wheeler-Kit-4-8-0-NIB-Unassembled-Undecorated-Rare-Kit/283851052034?hash=item4216d75402:g:2mQAAOSwssdemhSa
oops. You wanted N scale. I do remember some bashed a Bachman 2-8-0 into a good resemblance of an SP TW-8, but can't remember who.
Wrog again. Fellow's name is Rick Straw and he did an N&W M class 4-8-0.
Woo! This question sat for a while, and I thought no one would get around to it. That's a good idea, taking the trailing truck off a mountain and shortening it. I'm probably more skilled at shaving things off and having them look good than adding them in. I did find a youtube video that shows one in action made from a bachmann Consolidation; unfortunately the documentation on the process amounts to "check out this photo" and it's the completed model, done so well that it's impossible to tell where the cuts and other adjustments were made....
Either way, could someone point me toward some sort of tutorial? Like I said, I'm a bit out of my element here. Ideally, one for lengthening the frame/boiler, and one for shortening it, as I'm liable to try both at some point.
I guess some background information on the project is in order... which I'll provide if someone could point me to the appropriate place to share it.
Why not try Norfolk&Western's 4-8-0 M class an expamle is still around at strasburg... its also a Movie star, featured as the Rainbow Sun in Thomas and the Magic Railroad which will be finally reciving its Directors Cut shortly in May of this year, pleanty of footage is around of this loco depending if you're building a 1940s Layout or 1950s this is probably your go to, I've seen photos of older Bachmann 2-8-0s being redone as this class
On my HO layout I have a "factory kitbash" that might provide an idea - depending on what's available in N. Mantua/Tyco for many years made a Rogers 4-6-0 based on Sierra RR #3, the famous movie/TV engine (Petticoat Junction, High Noon, Back to the Future, etc.) Like the real engine, the model had a large space between the second and third drivers. At some point Mantua/Tyco modified the model chassis to squeeze a fourth set of drivers in there, creating a 4-8-0 that used the same body and lead truck etc. as their 4-6-0.
If someone makes a similar 4-6-0 in N scale, it shouldn't be too hard a kitbash?
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRv9IG2UEQsYTccDKkWoqTEqSv4uaSZv6lcjf5sWSG9nwVjzBj4
Perhaps the most fascinating of all 4-8-0s is one two-locomotive subclass of N&W M-2: the Automatics. These pioneered the chain-grate firing approach used on the TE-1 turbine, and a great deal of the kind of automation used there: a great deal of ingenuity was expended in making locomotives with the perceived operating economy of a diesel-electric switcher ... perhaps entirely too much ingenuity, as you may well agree looking at the design, or the results in practice.
They would certainly make fun prototypes to model, although much of the rationale for them as presumably single-manned (or large-first-generation-road-switcher-competitive) branch power would be nearly impossible at their weight in the 'union climate' of those years.
The N&W actually had 3 different classes of 4-8-0's in classes M, M-1 and M-2 with M-2 having subclasses. They were unofficially refered to as "Mollies". They were originally heavy road power but moved to lesser roles with the arrival of hoards of 2-6-6-2 and 2-8-8-2 classes. N&W skipped over the Mikado 2-8-2 and other wheel arrangements pretty much and concentrated on the 4-8-0 until the Mallets reassigned them.
oldline1
Sodjbut no one makes one
Here's one!
N&W called them Class M. There was a thread on the historical society's email list about the name "Mastadon" a while back and the consensus was that the N&W never called them that.
You can take a ride behind one at Strasburg, PA where they have preserved #475.
Other brass models of the M have been made and they pop up for sale somewhat regularly.
If the rolling stock was available, I'd be modeling a pre-WWI N&W with the M as my biggest locomotive.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
There is also the 'line of descent' that has the 4-8-0 the analogue of a shallow- or narrow-firebox 4-6-2 with another driver pair in place of the trailing truck -- the same relationship a 4-6-0 bears to a 4-4-2.
By far the most famous 4-8-0s in the world were in fact made this way, by Chapelon in France, and if you were interested in an unusual but highly adaptable version of the locomotive, you should study how that was done, and the reasons for it. Note that these comprise a canonical example why a narrow-firebox engine is not necessarily 'obsolescent' in the modern era. I believe there are a number of models of these, and while it would probably require a considerable amount of detaiing and scratchbuilding to 'Americanize' one, it might be an interesting thing to tinker with.
The usual high-speed-stability provisions of pushing the tender truck as far forward on the tender as possible, and carefully coupling the rear of the chassis through to the tender frame via a good radial buffer, would apply here 'in real life' even though they can be a pain to model if the geometry is not laid out very carefully.
Kevin,Make life easy and start with a Bachmann 2-10-0? While that's your brass engine I would think twice about using it since its a fine looking engine-IIRC the photo you posted of it correctly. In fact it inspired me enough to think about buying one and a coal tender for my United Santa Fe 2-8-0.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Just to add to the confusion - here is what Wikipedia knows about the 4-10-0 "El Gobernador"
El Gobernador was a 4-10-0 steam locomotive built by Central Pacific Railroad at the railroad's Sacramento, California shops. It was the last of Central Pacific's locomotives to receive an official name and was also the only locomotive of this wheel arrangement to operate on United States rails. At the time it was built, El Gobernador was the largest railroad locomotive in the world. Its name is reminiscent of the railroad's first locomotive, Gov. Stanford, as El Gobernador is Spanish for The Governor. This locomotive is sometimes mistakenly referred to as a "Mastodon" type. However, this was the unofficial name for an earlier engine, No. 229, the first successful 4-8-0 ever built. Both engines looked nearly identical, except that El Gobernador was longer and had an additional pair of drivers.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
I have always been fascinated with the wheel configurations on steam locomotives and the nicknames given to them.
As far as I can tell, the 4-8-0 was called the Mastodon or, synonymously, the Twelve Wheeler.
The 4-10-0 was called the El Gobernador or, synonymously, the Super Mastodon. Apparently, only one 4-10-0 was actually operated in the United States.
Rich
Alton Junction
doctorwayneIt might look a bit ungainly, which, in my opinion, suits the Mastodon-type, which were 4-8-0s.
I found this on Wikipedia.
Then I found this other chart that says a 4-8-0 is a Mastadon, and I can't read what it says for a 4-10-0, but it looks like "Gubernader".
Now I know less than before I looked into it.
SodjI know bachmann makes a nice consolidation that I could probably swap the truck out on...
You could avoid the modifications which I mentioned in my earlier post by buying Bachmann's Mountain, and getting rid of the trailing truck.
The only modifications needed would be cosmetic - shorten the boiler so that the firebox could be over the rear drivers and the cab could be moved closer to the drivers, then redo any details that you wish to change.It might look a bit ungainly, which, in my opinion, suits the Mastodon-type, which were 4-8-0s.
The Monon had a couple of groups of 4-8-0 locos. Numbered 200 to 221, unfortunately the Monon was one of those rather unique railroads that is kind of hard to model because of the limited number of special designs it operated. In HO, you might be able to find some brass, but you're on your own in N AFAIK.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I guess another option would be to start with a 2-12-0 and remove the front driver set and shorten the side rods.
That might be easier.
Looking for 2-12-0 models right now...
Well, that was a failure. It seems the only 2-12-0 locomotives are of German prototypes.
Nothin' like jumpin' in at the deep end.
To have a useable four-wheel lead truck, you'd likely have to extend the frame (not that big of a deal) so that its lead axle would be ahead of the cylinders, and the rear axle behind the cylinders. Otherwise, it won't have room to pivot on curves and turnouts.
That, obviously, would mean that the cylinders would need to be moved forward, too, necessitating the valve gear moving with it, and the main rods for the drivers being lengthened.
If you can manage that, the rest should be easy.
I thought a "Mastadon" was a 4-10-0, and the 4-8-0 was a "Twelve Wheeler". There was only one 4-10-0 that ran in the United States.
I thiink the most famous model Mastadon 4-10-0 is GORRE AND DAPHITED #34.
I plan to build an HO scale Mastadon using the Westside Models "brute" 2-10-0 as a starting point. I want to start with this model mainly because of the smallish drivers and the booster engine on the tender. It might capture the overall feel of John Allen's locomotive even if it is one dome short.
I would think a USRA 2-10-2 could also be used as a starting point. I don't know what has been made lately in N scale.
Hi everybody! I recently learned of the existence of the Mastodon type locomotives and thought "oooh shiny and different!" I'd like to have one for my freelance (n scale) railroad in the development stages, but no one makes one, so I'd have to kitbash and/or scratchbuild one. This would be my first loco project, so I'm a bit out of my depth. Any ideas of where to start? I know bachmann makes a nice consolidation that I could probably swap the truck out on...