Oregon_SteamerYes, but I have blacklisted Bachmann, they are overpriced plastic garbage. I have had numorous Bachmann models break down on me and it came from mainly one thing awful gears that split.
I have had numorous Bachmann models break down on me and it came from mainly one thing awful gears that split.
Bachmann's solved the gear issues at this point. The last one I know of to have any real problems was the first run of the Climax.
So far, essentially all post-2000 Bachmann models I've owned from standard to Spectrum have been some of my most dependable runners. This is working next to Kato, Athearn, Atlas, BLI, Proto, and other well regarded brands for both steam and diesel. The updated 4-4-0 uses a small coreless motor and high torque gearing, all contained within the firebox. A bad one gets out every now and then, but most of what I've heard has been good things. Just don't pay full MSRP.
I used to get some ridicule for using Bachmann products. It mostly came from people who had a bad experience in the 80's and 90's. Some of those people eventually ended up with a newer model and didn't have such a bad opinion afterward.
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There are a good variety of brass HO scale 4-4-0 models available with the motor in the boiler. They mostly seem to be older models from the 60s and 70s, but they would be a good starting point for your civil war fleet.
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The only more modern models seem to be of Jupiter and 119.
The prices range from $200.00 to $400.00 for a lot of the models in good condition.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
RR_MelI gave that a shot several years ago, my thing is restoring clunkers. Motorman gave me a sack full of can motors to experiment with, several small enough to fit in an American or Jupiter. I almost succeeded but the only motors small enough to fit in the boiler were 12K RPM and higher. I believe it’s possible if one could find a mini motor at 5 or 6K. I pulled one apart and reversed the driver assembly so that the drive line was to the front where a small motor will fit. Motorman (Eldon) tried to find a 4K to 6K motor that would fit but Father Time beat him to it. Mel
New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds
protolancer(at)kingstonemodelworks(dot)com
Oregon_SteamerYeah I've seen Branchlines from Sam's Trains videos, but how long are they going to last? Well that's probably back when Bachmann had a better grade of plastic gears or did they use metal back in the late 2000's? I don't want to buy a $200 plastic locomotive just to have its gears split, even today an empoyee to my local train shop was bringing up the topic.
Mike
As I said before, Bachmann UK products both in N scale and OO scale are premium products and apparently of much better quality than what is offered in the US.
However, given the more positive experience with Bachmann engines by some of the members here, I sense a strong and unjustified bias against Bachmann products. In the rare case an engine of newer design fails, Bachmann´s service department is top notch and they will go through great lengths in helping you.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
andrechapelon Oregon_Steamer andrechapelon Tinplate Toddler Well, I do think that a small "Wild West" 4-4-0 would sell quite nicely - outside of the US, in Europe! I remember the Rivarossi models of the "Jupiter" and the #119 being quite popular over here. Maybe we have to leave up to the new owners of Rivarossi, Hornby, to release an updated version. Bachmann retooled their old time 4-4-0. It should be superior to the older modeler they used to sell. Yes, but I have blacklisted Bachmann, they are overpriced plastic garbage. I have had numorous Bachmann models break down on me and it came from mainly one thing awful gears that split. No, I have better standards than that. Mantua, Walthers Mainline, Old Bowser, Trix. They are all better than Bachmann. Your call. I've been going to operating sessions at least once a month for over a decade. Virtually all the local freights are handled by Bachmann 2-8-0's and they're all at least 10 years old. Never a problem. Incidentally, Bachmann's big in Britain and highly regarded. Still, your call. EDIT: Sheldon (Atlantic Central) has been using Bachmann's for years. He's pretty satisfied with them. Mike
Oregon_Steamer andrechapelon Tinplate Toddler Well, I do think that a small "Wild West" 4-4-0 would sell quite nicely - outside of the US, in Europe! I remember the Rivarossi models of the "Jupiter" and the #119 being quite popular over here. Maybe we have to leave up to the new owners of Rivarossi, Hornby, to release an updated version. Bachmann retooled their old time 4-4-0. It should be superior to the older modeler they used to sell. Yes, but I have blacklisted Bachmann, they are overpriced plastic garbage. I have had numorous Bachmann models break down on me and it came from mainly one thing awful gears that split. No, I have better standards than that. Mantua, Walthers Mainline, Old Bowser, Trix. They are all better than Bachmann.
andrechapelon Tinplate Toddler Well, I do think that a small "Wild West" 4-4-0 would sell quite nicely - outside of the US, in Europe! I remember the Rivarossi models of the "Jupiter" and the #119 being quite popular over here. Maybe we have to leave up to the new owners of Rivarossi, Hornby, to release an updated version. Bachmann retooled their old time 4-4-0. It should be superior to the older modeler they used to sell.
Tinplate Toddler Well, I do think that a small "Wild West" 4-4-0 would sell quite nicely - outside of the US, in Europe! I remember the Rivarossi models of the "Jupiter" and the #119 being quite popular over here. Maybe we have to leave up to the new owners of Rivarossi, Hornby, to release an updated version.
Well, I do think that a small "Wild West" 4-4-0 would sell quite nicely - outside of the US, in Europe! I remember the Rivarossi models of the "Jupiter" and the #119 being quite popular over here. Maybe we have to leave up to the new owners of Rivarossi, Hornby, to release an updated version.
Bachmann retooled their old time 4-4-0. It should be superior to the older modeler they used to sell.
Yes, but I have blacklisted Bachmann, they are overpriced plastic garbage.
No, I have better standards than that. Mantua, Walthers Mainline, Old Bowser, Trix. They are all better than Bachmann.
Your call.
I've been going to operating sessions at least once a month for over a decade. Virtually all the local freights are handled by Bachmann 2-8-0's and they're all at least 10 years old. Never a problem.
Incidentally, Bachmann's big in Britain and highly regarded.
Still, your call.
EDIT: Sheldon (Atlantic Central) has been using Bachmann's for years. He's pretty satisfied with them.
Yeah I've seen Branchlines from Sam's Trains videos, but how long are they going to last? Well that's probably back when Bachmann had a better grade of plastic gears or did they use metal back in the late 2000's? I don't want to buy a $200 plastic locomotive just to have its gears split, even today an empoyee to my local train shop was bringing up the topic.
My first steam loco model was an AHM "Genoa". Too light, high geared and everything else nobody liked about 'em. I killed it trying to improve it. Still, it sparked my love for 4-4-0s.
MR had an excellent article in I think 1979 -82 or so on how to make a more modern 4-4-0 using an MDC old time 2-6-0 Mogul drive, and a Mantua 4-6-0 boiler, domes, lead 4 wheel truck. (like Dixie Belle)
The idea was to shorten the boiler to fit the MDC chassis, eliminate the front driver axle and use the Mantua lead truckand some other parts. I built one. Also on my model, an MDC cab was used and some other detailing was added beyond that the article involved, but it was one of my all time favorite MR articles. the resulting loco's on the right, opposite a Bachmann, at my golden spike cerimony when I completed an operable loop years ago.
Click on the picture for a larger view. Originally built in 1986, It ran OK with the MDC drive, but was rather motor noisy. About a year ago I put a can motor in it with a decent size flywheel. It runs smooth and quiet now. If such a project should appeal to someone, the donor models can be found on the 'bay. IHC-Mehano made an HO modern 4-4-0 similar to the N scale on in the original post. Its plastic and light, but probably has the same mechanism as their 2-6-0s, which is impressively smooth and quiet. They're on ebay a lot. Dan
Click on the picture for a larger view.
Originally built in 1986, It ran OK with the MDC drive, but was rather motor noisy. About a year ago I put a can motor in it with a decent size flywheel. It runs smooth and quiet now.
If such a project should appeal to someone, the donor models can be found on the 'bay.
IHC-Mehano made an HO modern 4-4-0 similar to the N scale on in the original post. Its plastic and light, but probably has the same mechanism as their 2-6-0s, which is impressively smooth and quiet. They're on ebay a lot. Dan
Tinplate Toddler andrechapelon Incidentally, Bachmann's big in Britain and highly regarded. Bachmann Branchlines in UK and the continental European counterpart, Liliput, are dervedly regarded as premium brands, while in the US they still suffer from the poor quality image they got decades ago. Lesson learned - if you lose a customer, you have a hard time tomwin him back!
andrechapelon Incidentally, Bachmann's big in Britain and highly regarded.
Bachmann Branchlines in UK and the continental European counterpart, Liliput, are dervedly regarded as premium brands, while in the US they still suffer from the poor quality image they got decades ago. Lesson learned - if you lose a customer, you have a hard time tomwin him back!
As I recall, Bachmann created Branchlines by buying out an existing company with a decent reputation. Liliput existed long before Bachmann acquired them. Liliput already had a good reputation.
American manufacturers kept producing essentially the same old stuff for half a century with minor incremental improvements at best until it dawned on them that that was dumb business strategy. For some, the light dawned too late, if at all.
andrechapelonIncidentally, Bachmann's big in Britain and highly regarded.
https://shop.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=258_276_978&zenid=4bio69sfbrjua9stteaooc1tv0
On the Southern Pacific, some of the 1870 era engines lasted into the 1920's, albeit much modified. Some of those engines can be seen in 1926's Buster Keaton movie "The General", which can be viewed in its entirety on YouTube. Here's a clip:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aaWhqGVXILQ
Link to full length movie:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PPjwmp5qqm8
dehusman The technology is feasible, the economics is not. It costs almost the same to produce a 4-4-0 as it does a 4-8-4. Very few people want to pay $300 for a 4-4-0 and its such a tiny market share. Its a vicious cycle. Manufacturers don't make models because its a small market and because there aren't many models its stays a small market. There are some engines that have never been produced that are needed, for example a 0-6-0 or 0-4-0 switcher from the 1870's or 1880's. Fairly common engine, never been made.
The technology is feasible, the economics is not. It costs almost the same to produce a 4-4-0 as it does a 4-8-4. Very few people want to pay $300 for a 4-4-0 and its such a tiny market share.
Its a vicious cycle. Manufacturers don't make models because its a small market and because there aren't many models its stays a small market.
There are some engines that have never been produced that are needed, for example a 0-6-0 or 0-4-0 switcher from the 1870's or 1880's. Fairly common engine, never been made.
Yeah I have noticed that, even a locomotive like the Billinton E2 that has a large fanbase for obvious reasons only has 2 makers both are awful.
There is a market for them but not everyone wants one.
The Civil War and "Wild West" are very small, very limited eras to model. During the civil war, very few railroads outside the north east were the same gauge. The "Wild West" is mostly a figment of Hollywood movies and was maybe 5% of US railroad mileage and maybe 1% of US railroad tonnage. Most of the train robbers of the 1800's operated in the states along the Mississippi and Missouri Rivers.
A good running 4-4-0 chassis and tender, designed to take interchangeable boilers, would be excellent. Then one could make a wide variety of engines, that would be a couple castings. If you think about it the most successful early engines are all designed that way, with interchangeable boilers and running mechanisms.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dknelsonBut a true scale model of The General and that era of 4-4-0 is always going to pose a challenge
Given the degree of miniaturization possible today, I don´t think a true to scale model of the rather minute 4-4-0s of the Civil War era is a real challenge. We have come a long way since Rivarossi sold the Bowker.
Oregon_SteamerAs any old school HO modeler knows, about those horrid drive shafts that plauge mid to late 19th century 4-4-0's like the Mantua General and formerly the Bachmann 4-4-0.
The Mantua "General" 4-4-0 at least had a solid and all metal tender that resisted the shaking and trembling that the torque of the motor imparted to lighter, and plastic, tenders (coming at the cost of course of robbing the little locomotive of most of its pulling power). This put a premium on really working on the mechanism and side rods and making the locomotive itself roll very easily during assembly. This took some tinkering. It was also somewhat noisy.
Older modelers might remember when even the original Rivarossi/AHM Indiana Harbor Belt 0-8-0, which had a good large boiler and cab, nonetheless had a tender drive, in a very lightweight plastic tender which had the shakes and the shell amplified the motor noise. This was changed in later runs.
Maybe the emphasis should be, or should have been, on finding a way to create a compact tender drive that actually powered the tender's trucks, as some Fleischmann European steamers tended to feature (so the locomotive itself was pushed) as well as, if memory serves, the somewhat infamous Tyco Chattanooga ChooChoo train set steam locomotive.
There are some "modern" 4-4-0s, the Pennsy D16 and the Chicago & Illinois Midland come to mind, which had large enough boilers that traditional motor mounts should and could work, although as I recall at least one brass import of the PRR D16 was a miserable puller.
But a true scale model of The General and that era of 4-4-0 is always going to pose a challenge. Yes I know AHM/Pocher (or whatever) managed it with their "Bowker" 2-4-0 but they also made it larger than 1:87.1 in scale. Considerably oversized, and even then the end of the motor stuck out the back of the cab.
Dave Nelson
Bachmann makes two models and Athearn also offetred one from the old MDC line. They are excellent runners. Yes, some operated in Eastern Canada until 1960...
Simon
NVSRR You would thinknit would be common like F units. The 4-4-0 was in service right up to the end of stream.
You would thinknit would be common like F units. The 4-4-0 was in service right up to the end of stream.
You would thinknit would be common like F units. The 4-4-0 was in service right up to the end of stream. The old bowser brass kits had one in its line.
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
Oregon_SteamerThis is starting to make me believe that Steam in model form is going the way of it's real life counter part.
No way! The picture is less bleak than you may think! Just ask a three year old what sound a train makes, and he will no doubt answer "choo choo"!
Tinplate Toddler Some years ag, I asked the same question, why "the engine, that built America", is not available, the rather old Bachmann model not considered. Well, apparently, there is very little interest for such a locomotive, or at least not enough profit in making one.
Some years ag, I asked the same question, why "the engine, that built America", is not available, the rather old Bachmann model not considered.
Well, apparently, there is very little interest for such a locomotive, or at least not enough profit in making one.
That's such a shame because the 4-4-0 is such a cool locomotive especially compared to the boring modern Diesel-Electrics. "Cough Dash 9 Cough!"
This is starting to make me believe that Steam in model form is going the way of it's real life counter part.
Today I saw something impressive I saw an N Scale Model Power modern 4-4-0.
Now what's so impressive about a this 4-4-0? Simple it's a small diecast model and does not require a drive shaft. Yes, the locomotive has a motor in a diecast body.
As any old school HO modeler knows, about those horrid drive shafts that plauge mid to late 19th century 4-4-0's like the Mantua General and formerly the Bachmann 4-4-0.
Yes, they were desined in the 1950's when motors were big, awkward and had to be put in the tender, but, in recent years more refined motors were created.
So, this got me thinking would it ever be possible to design a small motor that can replace the weight in the cab, or make any new models of the 19th century locomotives in diecast that have a motor in the locomotive?
If the smaller N Scale can pull this off HO scale can do it too!
What's the reasoning why no one is manufacturing locomotives like that? Lack of power? The American is not a heavy hauller like a Mikado "Obviously" and would be happy pulling short trains like the real ones would.