Comparing two Locomotives

[Jetrock]

Of course, according to Central Pacific, the "gateway to the sierras" was at Arcade Creek--that's where they started charging the government the higher mountain rate for railroad construction instead of the lower valley rate...

[Anonymous]

Space,

Yes, Southern Pacific called their Roseville operation "The Gateway to the Sierra's" and for the SP and now UP Roseville is definitely where it all starts when you begin to head east towards Donner Pass. Roseville uses that term now for most of it's advertising.

Don't know if you are currently in Marysville or not, but that once rather sleepy town is now booming.

Glad to see that you have worked out a solution for your eBay purchase.

[SpaceMouse]

Murietta,

Gateway to the Sierras?

Spent my childhood in Marysville.

[Anonymous]

I'm not at all familiar with IHC but they seem to be getting the same appraisal as the old AHM/Rivarossi engines of 25 years ago with their poor performance.

Has MDC improved their product since the time of the die cast kits? All I remember is the old style open frame noisy motor with the worm gear on the shaft that you had to line up with the gear on the drive axle. Have they designed their mechanisms to use can motors or any other mechanical upgrades? I often had to run my MDC locos several hours to get them to quiet down and smooth out, plus they drew quite a bit of current compared to other locos, such as the Mantua mikes and pacifics. We're talking a long time ago and hopefully the line has been improved upon. I have seen a couple of MDC locos that were detailed to the hilt for a particular SP prototype and they did look very impressive, but of course they had a Canon motor, new valve gear, details from Cal Scale and Kemtron, but indeed were as nice a looking engine as a brass import.

[Wdlgln005]

With the takeover of MDC by Athearn, it appears new production will come from the Athearn plant. It appears that the consolidation of lines is happening faster in Nscale than HO. The MDC 2-8-0 consol will be updated with new couplers & will be released soon. I see the little Overton passenger cars listed too. I'd watch your LHS for possible closeout prices on former MDC stock! There may be an overstock on some items. I'd consider MDC/Athearn to be of similar good quality for the money, much better than IHC.

[Don Gibson]

An 'assembled kit' MDC engine? - Who assembled it? Factory?

MDC's should outrun and outlast any IHC. MDC Used to be only available in unpainted metal kits, and you had to do the riviting. Sounds like a winner.

IHC is only an importer - and mostly sells cheaply made Mehano produts. To you IHC owners": When was the last time you saw a "Recommended" article on any IHC product?

[Anonymous]

Model Die Casting (MDC) is a line that goes back over 50 years. These kits have had price increases the past few years of pretty astronomical amounts. It wasn't that many years ago you could buy a MDC kit for $39.95. There are die-cast parts in the kits that definitely date back to the 50's. So you aren't buying new technology or detail. Some people aren't totally satisfied with the operation of MDC locos. If they are put together well and everything is square and quartered the engines will run rather well, but they need to be looked at on occasion. While I have not owned any of the newest offerings from some of the importers I have heard that reliability is very good and detail exceptional. Used MDC locos can be had for very reasonable prices at train meets and are very plentiful. Just be prepared to have a loco that might not have all the bells and whistles and detail of a newer design model. Some people might say that MDC locos are crude in comparison to the latest models. I'm sure that there are many modelers on this site that have owned and operated MDC locos as well as others and can critique my thoughts on MDC, but I just feel that at the current retail prices the MDC engines are way overpriced. Either find a source at a healthy discount, buy used, or consider the options.

[Anonymous]

Cool website 4884bigboy

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: They don't show the Southern Pacific version. How does one pick between a wood tender and a coal tender. Can you rework them?

The stack is the main difference, not the tender (coal: straight stack. wood: balloon stack.) The only thing you'd need to change on the tender would be to take out the little piece of plastic that looks like a pile of coal and replace it with a bunch of little broken-up bits of matches or twigs to represent logs.

QUOTE: Are you saying that, within reason, I can decorate the train about anyway I want?

Exactly. Early railroading was characterized by a high degree of individuality, especially on smaller branch lines.

QUOTE: I've been looking for websites with historical info on the Northwest off and on all day with no sucess.

*cracks knuckles* Let me get back to you on that. I've got some resource material on just that sort of thing, but at least to start with, do a Google-search for "northwestern pacific", "arcata & mad river railroad", or "california western railroad" and take it from there. There were a hatful of little logging railroads in the northwoods, with some amazing and weird equipment!

QUOTE: I've sort of been avoiding that issue.

Decaling requires a little hand-eye coordination but other than that it's easy. Painting requires a little practice (frankly, those two junker locomotives you got via eBay might be a great opportunity to practice your painting skills on something you don't have to worry about ruining) but it's not that hard either.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock

Actually, for an 1880's layout set on the West Coast, you would want WOOD burners. As mentioned above, oil burners didn't come into use until later, and coal is scarce in California.

The engine you show there is definitely post 1890, in addition to being a coal-burner.

Some things you want to look for:

Balloon stack--big diamond-shaped smokestack to limit cinders--as these were used on wood-burning locomotives.

Wood in the tender--rather than coal.

The one I am really leaning toward is this one...

They don't show the Southern Pacific version. How does one pick between a wood tender and a coal tender. Can you rework them?

QUOTE: Color--while the 1880's were the beginning of Commodore Vanderbilt's movement to have American railroad locomotives all be painted black and without ornamentation, such Puritan design started on the East Coast and didn't move west until later. Lokeys in the 1880's West would still be colorful, ornamented and brass-heavy. Locomotives were often personalized with flags, banners, custom paint jobs, even deer antlers stuck to the headlamp.

Are you saying that, within reason, I can decorate the train about anyway I want?

QUOTE: Think about what kids do with Hondas these days, and apply that to locomotives, with an eye towards Victorian ostentation.

You might look for locomotives labeled "Central Pacific": that is the line that became Southern Pacific.

About passengers and freight: No, as a general rule the same railroad company would run both passengers and freight. Keep in mind that railroads are PRIVATE LINES--unlike private roads, they are owned entirely by the operating railroad. Sometimes railroads would set up mutual agreements to use each other's track at specified times and places, or lease each other their locomotives, but generally you'd find Southern Pacific engines running on Southern Pacific rails, pulling Southern Pacific trains--or whatever railroad.

There were other railroads operating in California, of course--but they didn't call Southern Pacific "The Octopus" for nothing! They had a near-monopoly over rail transportation in the West for decades.

I'll dig up some stuff on Northcoast railroads, but I'm pretty sure that SouthernPacific didn't run on the California coast north of the Bay Area. Northwestern Pacific did.

I've been looking for websites with historical info on the Northwest off and on all day with no sucess.

QUOTE: You do know that you can repaint and re-decal engines, right? It matters not what is on the side of the engine--that can be changed!

I've sort of been avoiding that issue. [:)]

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jrbernier

That 4-4-0 runs pretty good( a friend has one as well as the 2-6-0). Both are rather 'modern' engines(note the large piston valve steam chests). That 2-6-0 is an SP prototype and was the largest 2-6-0 built, IIRC.
The MDC engines look good, but unless they have been upgraded, you may get one with the old brass tires and the plastic gears are not real good. NWSL makes a motor/regear set for most of the MDC stuff that helps.
I have one of the Bachmann 4-4-0's(I got it from my brother-in-law). It really does not run too bad, but does not pull very well. Also, the pilot truck has plastic wheels, so is banned from my layout at this time. It sits in the display case. Maybe one of these days I will see if I can get small metal wheels for the pilot, a cheap decoder, and repaint it - Then maybe not!

Jim Bernier

Actually, the IHC 2-6-0 is based on the Southern Pacific M-4 most of which were Cooke built around 1899-1901. The Mogul you're thinking of as the largest ever built were the ten M-21's, built in SP's Houston Shops in 1929-1930. As a comparison, the M-4 had a tractive effort of around 28,000 lbs, while the M-21's had a T.E. of 42,400 lbs.

The SP M-4 2-6-0 and the SP E-23 4-4-0 shared a common boiler, which is probably why IHC came out with the 4-4-0. Unfortunately, there are several things wrong with the 4-4-0. The driving wheel base is off (visually at least). The E-23 used 73" drivers, while the IHC engine looks like it uses the Mogul's 63" drivers. On both engines, the tender is just flat wrong because it was made longer to accommodate a motor and drive train (it was originally build with a tender drive) when it was sold under the Pemco label about 25 years ago. Neither engine is really appropriate (despite the box type headlight on the 4-4-0) for any era prior to the 1920's without some back-dating.

Except for the tender, the IHC 2-6-0 is a pretty good rendition of an SP M-4 as it would have appeared after about 1925 or so. Mate it to one of MDC's 7,000 gallon Vanderbilt tenders and you have a nice looking Mogul for the more modern steam era.

The MDC old timer Mogul is more appropriate for the 1880's as is the MDC 4-4-0 that was announced about a year or so ago. Hopefully, the 4-4-0 will go back into production.

Andre

[Jetrock]

Actually, for an 1880's layout set on the West Coast, you would want WOOD burners. As mentioned above, oil burners didn't come into use until later, and coal is scarce in California.

The engine you show there is definitely post 1890, in addition to being a coal-burner.

Some things you want to look for:

Balloon stack--big diamond-shaped smokestack to limit cinders--as these were used on wood-burning locomotives.

Wood in the tender--rather than coal.

Color--while the 1880's were the beginning of Commodore Vanderbilt's movement to have American railroad locomotives all be painted black and without ornamentation, such Puritan design started on the East Coast and didn't move west until later. Lokeys in the 1880's West would still be colorful, ornamented and brass-heavy. Locomotives were often personalized with flags, banners, custom paint jobs, even deer antlers stuck to the headlamp.

Think about what kids do with Hondas these days, and apply that to locomotives, with an eye towards Victorian ostentation.

You might look for locomotives labeled "Central Pacific": that is the line that became Southern Pacific.

About passengers and freight: No, as a general rule the same railroad company would run both passengers and freight. Keep in mind that railroads are PRIVATE LINES--unlike private roads, they are owned entirely by the operating railroad. Sometimes railroads would set up mutual agreements to use each other's track at specified times and places, or lease each other their locomotives, but generally you'd find Southern Pacific engines running on Southern Pacific rails, pulling Southern Pacific trains--or whatever railroad.

There were other railroads operating in California, of course--but they didn't call Southern Pacific "The Octopus" for nothing! They had a near-monopoly over rail transportation in the West for decades.

I'll dig up some stuff on Northcoast railroads, but I'm pretty sure that SouthernPacific didn't run on the California coast north of the Bay Area. Northwestern Pacific did.

You do know that you can repaint and re-decal engines, right? It matters not what is on the side of the engine--that can be changed!

[Anonymous]

You could also get some Santa Fe locomotives. SP and ATSF (Santa Fe) both operated over much of the same territory. They both had freight and passenger trains.

[jrbernier]

That 4-4-0 runs pretty good( a friend has one as well as the 2-6-0). Both are rather 'modern' engines(note the large piston valve steam chests). That 2-6-0 is an SP prototype and was the largest 2-6-0 built, IIRC.
The MDC engines look good, but unless they have been upgraded, you may get one with the old brass tires and the plastic gears are not real good. NWSL makes a motor/regear set for most of the MDC stuff that helps.
I have one of the Bachmann 4-4-0's(I got it from my brother-in-law). It really does not run too bad, but does not pull very well. Also, the pilot truck has plastic wheels, so is banned from my layout at this time. It sits in the display case. Maybe one of these days I will see if I can get small metal wheels for the pilot, a cheap decoder, and repaint it - Then maybe not!

Jim Bernier

[SpaceMouse]

Okay, I found this IHC for $44.98--is it post 1990.

[orsonroy]

Mouse,

Oil burners weren't popular until the WWI period, and I don't thing there were ANY in the 1880s, so stick with wood and coal burners for your layout.

As for which engines to get, the IHC engines all represent post-1900 prorotypes. Unfortunately, the best engines on the market for you are the Roundhouse engines, which mean they'll cost more. I'd be VERY leery of the Bachmann 4-4-0s: they're NOT part of their Spectrum line, and run poorly.

[twhite]

Spacemouse--IHC also makes that little 4-4-0 in Southern Pacific, in fact the loco is generally based upon one of the SP 4-4-0's. The Bachman 4-4-0 is pretty noisy and not the best runner in the world. However, as per my last post, I'd stick with the MDC 2-6-0, since it can be used for both passenger and freight. Just a thought.
Tom

[twhite]

I've got several MDC locos on my line and they're pretty good runners. The loco you show is lettered for the "V&T" which means "Virginia and Truckee" and was a line that ran in Nevada from about 1869 to 1950. It ran from Reno to Virginia City and hauled timber and passengers from the SP mainline in Reno to the fabulous Comstock Lode. The area is Western Nevada, very close to the California border, which means you could model high desert and Sierra Nevada scenery with ease. MDC also puts out period passenger coaches lettered for "V&T" and they're nice models. I'm sure you can find them available. The loco you show is a 2-6-0 and the V&T used them on both freight and passenger trains. Since it was basically a mountain railroad, speed was never an issue on the road. The price of the MDC model is what you would ordinarily pay for with an already assembled MDC 'kit'. There may be a few spare parts to add on, but that should be about it. They're nice locos.
Tom

[SpaceMouse]

IHC makes this in Canadian National, New Haven, Lackawanna, Central Vermont and Green Bay and Western for $63.98



Bachman Spectrum makes one in Union Pacific--for $56.25



I would also be looking for it with an oil tender, right?

[SpaceMouse]

I would like to get a 4-4-0 but I can't find it in Southern Pacific. I'm not adverse to changing my thinking about using the Southern Pacific line, I just don't know what other trains line might have been in the area. I don't think it is inconceivable that one company ran the passengers and another ran the freight.

[Jetrock]

The MDC kit is a *lot* more appropriate for the 1880's. Take a look at Bachmann's 4-4-0 engines--look for ones that have the balloon stack. The 2-6-0 is more appropriate for freight trains, while a 4-4-0 is better for passenger service.

One other thing: your kids will probably appreciate the colorful & fanciful 1880's style locomotives more than the spartan black 1900's ones--they're more aesthetically pleasing, and historically accurate--it wasn't until the late 1880's and 1890's that the "American locomotives should be spartan, black and unadorned" movement really took hold.

[sebamat]

Hello,
Like almost allways, it depends what you want...
The 'prototype' for the IHC model is ca an 'average' 1900-1915 steamer, that means a bita bit late for you. But I have a few steam engines from IHC, and are good runners. No experience with MDC.
If you can live with a 4-4-0 (vere very very common and used for all tasks), there are e few modells out there for ca 50-70$. Too much mountains&grades on your layout?
Try double headind! It look nice, was very common and will keep you busy with manouvers (turing, fueling, adding or removing helpers).

sebastiano

[cacole]

Well, for starters, look at the difference in detail between the two. MDC is (was) made in the USA and the IHC is of foreign manufacture.

Is the MDC model available? Since MDC has been purchased by Horizon Hobby and incorporated into Athearn and moved to California, it may no longer be available. Where did you find this picture and description?

MDC kits used to have a metal frame and plastic boiler. IHC models are the same thing, so it's basically a question of which model you like the looks of. I think the MDC would look more prototypical for 1880.

The description of the MDC is contradictory. It says "kit" and "fully assembled" -- which is it? It can't be both, unless someone is assembling the kits and selling them as fully assembled, so you're paying more for them to perform the assembly.

[SpaceMouse]

I'm looking at 2 locomotives for my 1880's Northern California Layout.

There is the MDC (Which comes in Southern Pacific)
MDC - STEAM LOCOMOTIVE KITS - 2-6-0 MOGUL W/51" DRIVERS POWERED ASSEMBLED DCC READY - HO SCALE for $127.48



And the IHC HO Premier Series 2-6-0 Mogul Steam Locomotive for $74.88



Why would the MDC cost twice as much? I figure you get what you pay for--I know that if you compare a Yugo to Honda--well, you can slam the doors on the Honda.