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Walthers Ore Dock

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Posted by schief on Monday, September 16, 2019 10:09 PM

"I don't know about that. With the storage hoppers and loading chutes anyone that looks at it would clearly be able to tell it's intended for loading into ships, not unloading out of them. There's no way for that to happen."

I guess I'm used to the non-modeling crowd around me not even caring about the concept of scale.

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Posted by gmpullman on Monday, September 16, 2019 9:42 PM

Motley
Ok my new location will be Bethlehem Steel Sparrows Point, MD.

That's why I was asking in earlier replies which facility you were planning to model. Inland furnaces suffered the increased costs of handling bulk raw materials.

Regards, Ed

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Posted by Motley on Monday, September 16, 2019 9:36 PM

gmpullman

 

Well, for starters, the largest craft that can navigate the Lehigh River at the site of the plant was not much bigger than a row boa

Good Luck, Ed

 

 
Ouch! I thought the Leigh River was bigger than that. I just looked at it on google maps.
 
Ok my new location will be Bethlehem Steel Sparrows Point, MD.
I think the ore boat can navigate the Atlantic Ocean. ha!

Michael


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Posted by gmpullman on Monday, September 16, 2019 8:03 PM

Motley
I would like to start researching and aquiring equipment.

I don't do "Facebook" but maybe you do?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/bethsteelrailroads/

Or there's this:

https://morningsunbooks.com/products/bethlehem-steel-v1

https://morningsunbooks.com/products/bethlehem-steel-v2

Motley
And how would someone know if loading ore into a ship at the mill is proper or not.

Well, for starters, the largest craft that can navigate the Lehigh River at the site of the plant was not much bigger than a row boat.

 Lehigh_Bethlehem by Edmund, on Flickr

Good Luck, Ed

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Posted by Motley on Monday, September 16, 2019 6:39 PM

What railroads would have serviced Bethlehem in the 1990s?

I would like to start researching and aquiring equipment.

Michael


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Posted by Motley on Monday, September 16, 2019 11:37 AM

cv_acr

 

schief

The average non-railroader not familiar with the process would probably never know.  If you really want to use an ore dock I'm sure you could make it look great.  It would come down to one of those personal choices on how realistic you want things to be versus what is aestically pleasing to you. If the price is not an issue, my vote is to build an ore dock kit for the fun of it and try it out.  Things can always be changed if the results are not what you want.

  

I don't know about that. With the storage hoppers and loading chutes anyone that looks at it would clearly be able to tell it's intended for loading into ships, not unloading out of them. There's no way for that to happen.

 

 

And how would someone know if loading ore into a ship at the mill is proper or not.

Here is the story, there were times when Bethlehem had lots of excess ore, and they were transfering it to another mill that was low.

 

 

 
 

Michael


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Posted by cv_acr on Monday, September 16, 2019 10:29 AM

schief

The average non-railroader not familiar with the process would probably never know.  If you really want to use an ore dock I'm sure you could make it look great.  It would come down to one of those personal choices on how realistic you want things to be versus what is aestically pleasing to you. If the price is not an issue, my vote is to build an ore dock kit for the fun of it and try it out.  Things can always be changed if the results are not what you want.

I don't know about that. With the storage hoppers and loading chutes anyone that looks at it would clearly be able to tell it's intended for loading into ships, not unloading out of them. There's no way for that to happen.

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Posted by Motley on Sunday, September 15, 2019 4:01 PM

I will make it look good. And will create a thread when I start building it. I'm still working on benchwork right now, so it will be a few months.

I see PWRS has it in stock! https://www.pwrs.ca/product_search.php?f_Keywords=933-3065&x=0&y=0&InStock=1&NewArrival=1&Available=1&ComingSoon=1&CallForAvail=1&SoldOut=1

I also see the Walthers Ore Boat is in stock too, so I will just go ahead and get that too. https://www.walthers.com/great-lakes-ore-boat-kit-waterline-hull

Michael


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Posted by doctorwayne on Sunday, September 15, 2019 2:49 PM

Motley
....I was hoping someone would say something like this. Ya I just believe the ore dock will look better to me rather than using a crane. I think I will just go with the ore dock....

While I agree with your opinion about the ore dock looking better (more interesting), an ore dock is usually located quite some distance from a steel-making facility...usually hundreds of miles.  I'd think that any reasonably astute modeller would know almost instantly what it was and that it wouldn't normally belong in the area you intend to place it.

That said (I spent almost four decades in the steel industry, so am perhaps a little picky), it is your railroad and totally up to you. 

Modelling an ore- or coal-yard at a steel plant would use an enormous amount of layout space to look convincing - the real ones covered acres and acres, and really aren't all that interesting, other than for the cranes.

Regardless of the choice you make, I, like Ed, would be interested in seeing photos, too.

Wayne

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Posted by gmpullman on Sunday, September 15, 2019 2:44 AM

Motley
I was hoping someone would say something like this.

Please post photos as you model the scene.  Yes

 

Have Fun! Ed

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Posted by Motley on Sunday, September 15, 2019 2:18 AM

schief

The average non-railroader not familiar with the process would probably never know.  If you really want to use an ore dock I'm sure you could make it look great.  It would come down to one of those personal choices on how realistic you want things to be versus what is aestically pleasing to you. If the price is not an issue, my vote is to build an ore dock kit for the fun of it and try it out.  Things can always be changed if the results are not what you want.

 

I was hoping someone would say something like this. Ya I just believe the ore dock will look better to me rather than using a crane. I think I will just go with the ore dock.

I can build a peice of benchwork that will be 10" lower than the track to support this structure. And I will likley not build an ore ship there (they are too big), just have water and a peer.

Michael


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Posted by schief on Saturday, September 14, 2019 11:50 PM

The average non-railroader not familiar with the process would probably never know.  If you really want to use an ore dock I'm sure you could make it look great.  It would come down to one of those personal choices on how realistic you want things to be versus what is aestically pleasing to you. If the price is not an issue, my vote is to build an ore dock kit for the fun of it and try it out.  Things can always be changed if the results are not what you want.

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Posted by gmpullman on Saturday, September 14, 2019 10:25 PM

Motley
would Bethlehem would have used this?

Just to help pin down the details, which Bethlehem plant are you modeling? Location makes a difference. Burns Harbor was on lake Michigan, Lackawanna plant in Buffalo on Lake Erie, Sparrows Point on Chesapeake Bay plus dozens of other shipbuilding and fabrication plants scattered across North America.

 Steel by Edmund, on Flickr

I have a bunch of books and pamphlets regarding Bethlehem Steel, just trying to help.

This rotary dumper was used at the main plant as were the unloading cranes above. There were several other travelling cranes in the stockyard. A large facility would have more than one way to bring in raw materials so as not to threaten production if one source or another were cut off. Large quantities of ore could not be brought up the Lehigh River and its inland location was one thing that helped lead to its demise.

 Steel_0001 by Edmund, on Flickr

One of the bridge cranes still exists and (oh, the agony) is used as a sign for a casino, of all things!

 Bethlehem by Edmund, on Flickr

Good Luck, Ed 

 

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Posted by PC101 on Saturday, September 14, 2019 8:49 PM

Would a mirror on the wall with the hole in it (hole in the the wall not the mirror) from the main line, make the dock and barge area look longer? The Coke building could be twice as long if it was butted right aginst the mirror. Anything equipment wise there will look longer if aginst the mirroror or more of them/it with space between the item and mirror. It would look like more barges and dock front. But then when backing a row of hoppers/jennys in, the closer to the mirror you get, it will look like a collision in in the making.  

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Saturday, September 14, 2019 5:25 PM

Deleted my response. Sorry, it made no sense.

.

Dots - Sign

.

-Kevin

.

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by doctorwayne on Saturday, September 14, 2019 1:21 PM

gmpullman
....I suggest to anyone with even a remote interest in the steelmaking process to invest in a copy of The Making, Shaping and Treating of Steel. This book is a wealth of information on the layout and methods of various steel making processes....

I have that book, and while it does have some good information, Dean Freytag's "The History, Making and Modeling of Steel" is perhaps even more useful for modelling purposes. 

Wayne

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Posted by doctorwayne on Saturday, September 14, 2019 1:14 PM

Motley
...How about this bridge crane, would Bethlehem would have used this?

I can't comment regarding Bethlehem's practices, but both of the major steel companies in my hometown of Hamilton, Ontario, used similar bridge cranes.  An aerial view of the one where I worked, in a very large undated photo ("rescued" before an older mill was torn down) shows two such bridge cranes at the ore yard (a very rough estimate using an HO scale ruler on the photo puts those cranes at a length of about 700' each).

Nowadays, many of the ore- and coal-boats are self-unloaders, and the same photo shows one at the coal yard.

Wayne

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Posted by Motley on Saturday, September 14, 2019 11:47 AM

Ok thanks for all the info on this. Ya I figured there was not gonna be a way to use the ore dock. I just thought it would be cool to have.

I'm not going to use a huge ore ship, I am going to use a flat bottom barge for the ore. How about this bridge crane, would Bethlehem would have used this?

https://www.walthers.com/bridge-crane-kit

Michael


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Posted by gmpullman on Saturday, September 14, 2019 5:04 AM

Motley
I know ore boats are unloaded with a bridge crane.

Hulett ore unloaders were the preferred method of unloading ore from the holds of boats.

 Hulett_fix2 by Edmund, on Flickr

 Hulett_Jenny by Edmund, on Flickr

Motley
Is there any way possible I can make a believable scene with the ore dock?

 

When you refer to the "Walthers ore dock" do you mean this?

https://www.walthers.com/ore-dock-kit-48-1-2-x-5-quot-121-2-x-12-5cm

This dock would be used to load the boats.

Some ore yards used a travelling overhead clamshell bucket to retrieve stored ore and load it into hoppers during the winter months when lake traffic was suspended and the mills were working off the stockpiles.

The Huletts are large machines but you could make a "compact" scene using perhaps two. There were places around the Great Lakes that had only two Huletts rather than the usual gang of four. In Huron, Ohio, The Nickel Plate Road used only a pair of Huletts.

 IMG_7463_fix by Edmund, on Flickr

 Hulett2 by Edmund, on Flickr

 Hulett4 by Edmund, on Flickr

Jack Delano; LOC

I believe the ore used at Bethlehem was unloaded (depending on which plant) using McMyler unloaders which were a cantilevered bridge and a clamshell bucket.

Steel mills recieving ore in flat-bottomed ore jennies had rotary dumpers to empty the cars.

I suggest to anyone with even a remote interest in the steelmaking process to invest in a copy of The Making, Shaping and Treating of Steel. This book is a wealth of information on the layout and methods of various steel making processes.

They can be had at bargain prices these days! Several editions were made the most recent being 1957, 1964 and 1971.

https://tinyurl.com/y2het7u2

 

Good Luck, Ed

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Walthers Ore Dock
Posted by Motley on Saturday, September 14, 2019 3:57 AM

I am making plans for a steel mill in another room next to my main room layout.

I really want the Walthers Ore Dock, becuasue its just very cool looking. I know ore boats are unloaded with a bridge crane. But I would rather have the ore dock.

Is there any way possible I can make a believable scene with the ore dock? Or will it look stupid.

Here is my plan.

Michael


Director -
Mile-HI-Railroad
Prototype: D&RGW Moffat, UP, GN. BNSF 

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