BRAKIE Doughless I do slow switching manuvers, so the inconsistencies were more apparent than if I Mu'ed and ran them at 40 mph, IMO. Doughless, On my ISLs slow switching is the rule so,I'm not overly concern about those two GP38-2s not MU'ing together. If I was DCC should fix that problem by matching start and mid volt along with consisting and speed step. The NYC GP20s I mention was for my "Westinghouse train" consisting of 22 Athearn 40' highcube appliance boxcars I had.. I ended up using 2 P2K C&O GP30s #3030 and 3038 if they was available-we pooled engines and cars for our weekly operations.
Doughless I do slow switching manuvers, so the inconsistencies were more apparent than if I Mu'ed and ran them at 40 mph, IMO.
Doughless, On my ISLs slow switching is the rule so,I'm not overly concern about those two GP38-2s not MU'ing together.
If I was DCC should fix that problem by matching start and mid volt along with consisting and speed step.
The NYC GP20s I mention was for my "Westinghouse train" consisting of 22 Athearn 40' highcube appliance boxcars I had.. I ended up using 2 P2K C&O GP30s #3030 and 3038 if they was available-we pooled engines and cars for our weekly operations.
Larry. The LL GP38-2s I had were excellent runners. Meaning they ran very slowly. Bought some for $25 from TrainWorld back in the day when they cleared out old LL locos. I sold them for other reasons.
I also own a LL GP20, GP7, and three GP18s (big blue box vintage) that are extremely smooth at very slow speed and very quiet at higher speed. Other GP20s, 7s, and 9s were not as good.
I never had much luck with the GP30s in terms of higher speed noise. Same drivetrain as the others, but could never solve their running issues. Maybe the slightly longer wheelbase using the same drive created issues that were unsolvable?
- Douglas
DoughlessI do slow switching manuvers, so the inconsistencies were more apparent than if I Mu'ed and ran them at 40 mph, IMO.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Doughless BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL Under LifeLike production, there were primarily two different circuit board designs, which used different approaches to the constant lighting circuit, changing the starting voltage of the locos. Sheldon,We stand aagreed on that since that also came up in the "Gear ratio of the month" discussion but,a question was asked why two engines bought at the same time refuse to MU together. One wag quip that could have been cause by one unit was made on Friday and the other on Monday. He meant that has a joke but,come to think of it now,it could have been two different weekly production runs. As far as DCC one had to replace the light board with a DCC board before the nine pin plug was used.. My observation with the LL Proto locomotives, like the vintage GP20 the OP has, was that there was a higher degree of inconsistency between two locos that should otherwise be the same. One could be slower than the other, one could be noisier than the other. When they were great, they were the best in many ways, but it was not always easy to get a great one. I do slow switching manuvers, so the inconsistencies were more apparent than if I Mu'ed and ran them at 40 mph, IMO. I have about 60 of them, and I have found that all the same tune up tricks for Athearn locos work to get consistent performance from the LifeLike locos. My modeling is a good mix of big time mainline operation and switching, but admittedly, the same GP7 that is lashed up with three others for the mainline is not likely to be switching on the industrial belt line. Modeling the 50's, most of my switching is done with matching pairs of ALCO S1's, or EMD SW's, also older LifeLike. Anyway, I'm happy with my old Proto2000 stuff, and happy about the prices I paid, typically less than $50 each. For that I can do a little tuning up.... Sheldon
Doughless BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL Under LifeLike production, there were primarily two different circuit board designs, which used different approaches to the constant lighting circuit, changing the starting voltage of the locos. Sheldon,We stand aagreed on that since that also came up in the "Gear ratio of the month" discussion but,a question was asked why two engines bought at the same time refuse to MU together. One wag quip that could have been cause by one unit was made on Friday and the other on Monday. He meant that has a joke but,come to think of it now,it could have been two different weekly production runs. As far as DCC one had to replace the light board with a DCC board before the nine pin plug was used.. My observation with the LL Proto locomotives, like the vintage GP20 the OP has, was that there was a higher degree of inconsistency between two locos that should otherwise be the same. One could be slower than the other, one could be noisier than the other. When they were great, they were the best in many ways, but it was not always easy to get a great one. I do slow switching manuvers, so the inconsistencies were more apparent than if I Mu'ed and ran them at 40 mph, IMO.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL Under LifeLike production, there were primarily two different circuit board designs, which used different approaches to the constant lighting circuit, changing the starting voltage of the locos. Sheldon,We stand aagreed on that since that also came up in the "Gear ratio of the month" discussion but,a question was asked why two engines bought at the same time refuse to MU together. One wag quip that could have been cause by one unit was made on Friday and the other on Monday. He meant that has a joke but,come to think of it now,it could have been two different weekly production runs. As far as DCC one had to replace the light board with a DCC board before the nine pin plug was used..
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Under LifeLike production, there were primarily two different circuit board designs, which used different approaches to the constant lighting circuit, changing the starting voltage of the locos.
Sheldon,We stand aagreed on that since that also came up in the "Gear ratio of the month" discussion but,a question was asked why two engines bought at the same time refuse to MU together. One wag quip that could have been cause by one unit was made on Friday and the other on Monday. He meant that has a joke but,come to think of it now,it could have been two different weekly production runs.
As far as DCC one had to replace the light board with a DCC board before the nine pin plug was used..
My observation with the LL Proto locomotives, like the vintage GP20 the OP has, was that there was a higher degree of inconsistency between two locos that should otherwise be the same. One could be slower than the other, one could be noisier than the other. When they were great, they were the best in many ways, but it was not always easy to get a great one.
I do slow switching manuvers, so the inconsistencies were more apparent than if I Mu'ed and ran them at 40 mph, IMO.
I have about 60 of them, and I have found that all the same tune up tricks for Athearn locos work to get consistent performance from the LifeLike locos.
My modeling is a good mix of big time mainline operation and switching, but admittedly, the same GP7 that is lashed up with three others for the mainline is not likely to be switching on the industrial belt line.
Modeling the 50's, most of my switching is done with matching pairs of ALCO S1's, or EMD SW's, also older LifeLike.
Anyway, I'm happy with my old Proto2000 stuff, and happy about the prices I paid, typically less than $50 each.
For that I can do a little tuning up....
Sheldon
I understand. I've stripped them down looking for an errant noise, that I never could find. Never found a burr on anything. Never could locate the source of the grind. Spent hours chasing them unsuccessfully. I figured that I probably wasn't doing something right so I just packed it up and moved on.
I just got to the point that when I bought one, if it made noise or ran rougher than others even after doing a simple thing like removing the hardened grease and replaced the cracked gears, I just sold it on ebay. Took a couple of hours to determine if it was a keeper or a goner. Kind of a crap shoot back in the day.
But I ended up with a very quiet and very smooth fleet.
Now its the same deal with sound decoders. Trying to find a product that has no weaknesses. Still an issue after all of these years of advancing technology.
Buying locos then reselling the lemons (by my definition) is simply a cost of the hobby for me.
Larry, my best explanation for two identical locos not running together would be quality control of the motors themselves. Something that might be easily fixed on a LifeLike Proto with a simple motor teardown and tune up.
ATLANTIC CENTRALUnder LifeLike production, there were primarily two different circuit board designs, which used different approaches to the constant lighting circuit, changing the starting voltage of the locos.
All the FA's also used the Athearn clone truck.
The voltage sucking light board was fine if you were running DC at 18 volts.
Not so much if you are running 13-14 volts.
Okay. Keeping it simple. The cracked gear issue applies to GP units mainly (except the 38-2), and the BL2 since they are the units with the Athearn cloned trucks. (not sure about FA's or F units since I've never owned one)
The switchers and SD7/9s, and I believe the Uboats, had kato cloned truck designs.
I've never owned other SD units, like SD45s, but I assume they went with the kato cloned and LL never designed an Athearn cloned six axle truck.
The switchers, six axle units, and Uboats, did not have the cracked gear issue. There may have been some lemons in the batch, but cracked gears were not a systemic problem like they were in the Athearn based GP trucks.
The GP38-2 was a completely new loco that was designed from scratch by LL way later than their 1st generation GP units, and had different trucks than the rest.
As far as gear ratio of the month, understanding that LL used different truck designs depending upon the loco explains the different ratios.
Not the gear ratios, but the light boards changed nearly almost every run. As a modeler who is lighting aware, different light boards would cause different starting voltages for the motors with each change as well, which would effect the brightness of the lights upon start up.
The tall starting voltage was fantastic. The slower the better. Loved those LL light boards.
I assume folks who consisted locos thought it was a poor design, but it actually made the lights work more prototypically, so the slow starts were actually a more advanced design. And then Aristo Craft PWM throttles made it even better.
Then LL added a DCC plug to the light boards, so the design changed again.
Then Walthers took over LL and designed their own 12:1 truck for everything, but they may have continued to produce some locos with the Athearn clone under the Walthers brand until their new trucks were produced. Light boards were consistant by then.
But relative to Athearn blue box, from which the original LL GP units were mechanically based, LL used light boards instead of that metal strip Athear used. So LL wired both sides of the truck to the boards, eliminating the need for the bottom motor clip to pick up current from the frame. All LL GP units should have that connection taped at the bottom, isolating the motor from the frame and making them suitable for DCC conversion by replacing the light board with a decoder. (now following murphy's law, that early GP20 will be different somehow)
After all of that, okay, I guess its not so simple......
Holey moley, so much information to learn about about this loco I picked up! Thanks everyone for your help. I will work on it and report back what i find. I've never taken one apart before but looks like this will be a good one to start with to check out the gears.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL Larry, respectfully there was no "gear ratio of the month". Sheldon, With due respect.The LL gear ratio of the month was discussed in lenght on the old Atlas forum nobody seem to have a direct answer why some P2K engines of the same type could not MU together. Even today two of my four LL P2K GP38-2s will not MU together like my GP7/9 and 18s will. The only Walthers P2K I have is my Ohio Central GP7. I don't MU this unit with my others. For general information these Geeps has Athearn replacement gears. I doubt if that has anything to do with it.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Larry, respectfully there was no "gear ratio of the month".
Sheldon, With due respect.The LL gear ratio of the month was discussed in lenght on the old Atlas forum nobody seem to have a direct answer why some P2K engines of the same type could not MU together. Even today two of my four LL P2K GP38-2s will not MU together like my GP7/9 and 18s will. The only Walthers P2K I have is my Ohio Central GP7. I don't MU this unit with my others.
For general information these Geeps has Athearn replacement gears. I doubt if that has anything to do with it.
I think I know the answer, and it has nothing to do with gears. As for the old Atlas forum, never spent a minute there.
Under LifeLike production, there were primarily two different circuit board designs, which used different approaches to the constant lighting circuit, changing the starting voltage of the locos.
Original versions without 8 pin plugs used a voltage sucking diode arrray, newer versions used a differnt circuit that did not raise the starting voltage nearly as much.
Additionally the motors themselves evolved slightly.
So an early 90's GP7 and a late 90's GP7 would have different starting voltages that would make DC MU operation "clunky" on startup.
I have removed all those older style boards and replaced them with different circuits that work fine with the newer style boards.
As a confirmed DC user, and a comfirmed Aristo Train Engineer user, I have learned that these DCC interface lighting boards can be problematic. I have learned how to test them for compatiblity with my system and my other locos and then modifiy or replace them as needed.
And I don't really need fancy constant lighting circuits because the pulse width modulation output of the train engineer is full voltage, so a simple LED headlight with a resistor goes full bright when you crack the throttle, long before the loco moves.
And, modeling the early 50's, I don't do much "mix and match" MU stuff, most of my MU setups are matched sets, ABBA, or three or four matching GP7's, etc.
But gear ratios, only two, one before Walthers, one after Walthers retooled.
And even that is not a big issue.
As DoctorWayne (who just rips out all the lights and lighting boards) and I have explained many times, if your train really needs three locos, the locos really need not run at the same speed under no load, the main thing they need is a similar starting voltage so they all start at the same time.
The train weight will take care of the rest.
I run Bachmann 2-6-6-2's with Proto 2-8-8-2's, they run great together. No idea how similar the gearing is or is not. You might be amazed at what locos will run together pulling 50 freight cars that weigh a total of 15 lbs.
ATLANTIC CENTRALLarry, respectfully there was no "gear ratio of the month".
xsvtoysMy plan is to try this thing out in DC and see how it works. Then if needed I'll get into replacing the gears and such.
Glad the coupler photo helped you out.
Perhaps your particular engine has been given a mechanical tune-up by the previous owner. I've had many brand new, old stock Life Like locomotives that required mechanical work before they would even run.
Proto_gear-3 by Edmund, on Flickr
The above photo is of a second-run of the FA-1. The worm gear bearings were frozen solid to the shaft. Whatever combination of the metals in the shaft and bearing reacted with the lubricant and formed a lacquer-like gunk that formed a solid bond.
Proto_gear-5 by Edmund, on Flickr
Eventually, you will probably find yourself stripping the drive-train down to clean the parts and remove old grease, look for any flash on the universals and gear parts and replace the axle gears.
Proto_gear-4 by Edmund, on Flickr
Proto_gear-2 by Edmund, on Flickr
These vintage Life-Like locomotives were very dependable and will give very satisfactory performance with a few basic maintenance chores taken care of.
Good Luck, Ed
dknelson ATLANTIC CENTRAL All LifeLike two axle trucks at that time were the same design (a clone of the Athearn truck) and suffered from the same undersized gear center hole that lead to the cracking. The gears seemed to fail faster, or more frequently in locos not used, or that sat as NOS, than in locos purchased and ran right away. But eventually most failed. LifeLike gave them away like candy until the Wathers buyout, Wathers was a little more conservative but still replaced them for free for many years. Now, almost 30 years later, you are on your own. Walthers continues to offer for sale replacement wheel/axle sets for the Proto2000 engines that had the cracked gear blight. The E unit replacements are also available but there is the info on the GP units, including the early GP20s. https://www.walthers.com/replacement-geared-driver-assembly-diesel-wheelset-pkg-2-for-early-proto-2000-r-bl-fa-gp7-9-18-20-30-60-proto-1000-tm-f3 Dave Nelson
ATLANTIC CENTRAL All LifeLike two axle trucks at that time were the same design (a clone of the Athearn truck) and suffered from the same undersized gear center hole that lead to the cracking. The gears seemed to fail faster, or more frequently in locos not used, or that sat as NOS, than in locos purchased and ran right away. But eventually most failed. LifeLike gave them away like candy until the Wathers buyout, Wathers was a little more conservative but still replaced them for free for many years. Now, almost 30 years later, you are on your own.
Walthers continues to offer for sale replacement wheel/axle sets for the Proto2000 engines that had the cracked gear blight. The E unit replacements are also available but there is the info on the GP units, including the early GP20s.
https://www.walthers.com/replacement-geared-driver-assembly-diesel-wheelset-pkg-2-for-early-proto-2000-r-bl-fa-gp7-9-18-20-30-60-proto-1000-tm-f3
Dave Nelson
I simply meant they were no longer free.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAll LifeLike two axle trucks at that time were the same design (a clone of the Athearn truck) and suffered from the same undersized gear center hole that lead to the cracking. The gears seemed to fail faster, or more frequently in locos not used, or that sat as NOS, than in locos purchased and ran right away. But eventually most failed. LifeLike gave them away like candy until the Wathers buyout, Wathers was a little more conservative but still replaced them for free for many years. Now, almost 30 years later, you are on your own.
Thanks gmpullman, that's a nice macro shot of the couplers. After looking at it closely and also comparing to other images on the net, I am 90% sure that this loco has the Kadee 5 couplers on it.
My plan is to try this thing out in DC and see how it works. Then if needed I'll get into replacing the gears and such. Then, I'll probably install that T1 decoder for DCC. Should be fun.
BRAKIE riogrande5761 Did the LL-P2K GP20 suffer from the cracked gears as well? Jim,That's a trick question.. Around 20 years ago I bought two NYC GP20s both LL. One had crack gears from the factory the other one the gears never cracked the 5 years I used them the club I was a member of back then. The suffered from the gear ratio of the month LL used and never MU'd well together so,I used them for yard switchers. My plans was to have them repainted in the club's road name but,never did.
riogrande5761 Did the LL-P2K GP20 suffer from the cracked gears as well?
Did the LL-P2K GP20 suffer from the cracked gears as well?
Jim,That's a trick question.. Around 20 years ago I bought two NYC GP20s both LL. One had crack gears from the factory the other one the gears never cracked the 5 years I used them the club I was a member of back then. The suffered from the gear ratio of the month LL used and never MU'd well together so,I used them for yard switchers.
My plans was to have them repainted in the club's road name but,never did.
Larry, respectfully there was no "gear ratio of the month". If it was a two axle truck made under LifeLike ownership, it was the same. All my LifeLike produced 4 axle locos run together fine and have the same gears, GP7, BL2, FA1, FA2, to the tune of about 45 locos of those 4 types. And my SD9's run fine with them as well.
Blame the gear ratio non sense on Walthers retooling after they bought the line.
Now my Wathers Proto F7's, that is a different story, but I don't MU them with those others as a general rule.
So that makes two different gear ratios.........old and new..........
Additional note about these early locos, even using DC, I remove these circuit boards, install LEDs, and eliminate those voltage stealing diodes.
I only use a track voltage of 13.8, so out of the box these locos run a little slow.
All LifeLike two axle trucks at that time were the same design (a clone of the Athearn truck) and suffered from the same undersized gear center hole that lead to the cracking.
The gears seemed to fail faster, or more frequently in locos not used, or that sat as NOS, than in locos purchased and ran right away.
But eventually most failed.
LifeLike gave them away like candy until the Wathers buyout, Wathers was a little more conservative but still replaced them for free for many years.
Now, almost 30 years later, you are on your own. But other than replacing all those gears at some point, my fleet of nearly 60 early Proto locos still run great. Many purchased for only $35 to $60.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
rrinker The chassis is the same, but that board is not like any of my GP7s that use the LL8 decoder, those decoders are meant for the locos that have a long narrow board with diodes and all the wires connect to a second board which just has an 8 pin socket and plugs in to the diode board. There are no resistors. Or cut at the X marks. This board is the same as the one in the SD 7/9. —Randy
The chassis is the same, but that board is not like any of my GP7s that use the LL8 decoder, those decoders are meant for the locos that have a long narrow board with diodes and all the wires connect to a second board which just has an 8 pin socket and plugs in to the diode board. There are no resistors. Or cut at the X marks. This board is the same as the one in the SD 7/9.
—Randy
Should have looked at the initial photos more closely, Randy. Yea, no NMRA socket to plug into.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
rrinkerThe chassis is the same, but that board is not like any of my GP7s that use the LL8 decoder,
I found a board from one of my GP-20s. It is unique in that it has a bronze strip to contact the top of the motor brush retainer clip.
DCC_PCB-gp20 by Edmund, on Flickr
I don't recall encountering many like that.
DCC_PCB-gp20a by Edmund, on Flickr
gmpullman The ProtoMax are distinctly a shiny black color. Kadees generally have a graphite/metallic look to them. The Kadee 5 and 158 are flanking a ProtoMax here: Kadee_1a by Edmund, on Flickr
The ProtoMax are distinctly a shiny black color. Kadees generally have a graphite/metallic look to them. The Kadee 5 and 158 are flanking a ProtoMax here:
Kadee_1a by Edmund, on Flickr
The difference I see between a KD5 and a ProtoMax is with the ’bumps’ around the area were the knuckle and the rest of the coupler meet. I’m being a bit confusing and I can’t seem to see the difference in Edmund’s picture but a bit ago I studied the two in depth and that’s what I found. I though since the OP’s model is perhaps a Walthers model it may have ProtoMax couplers, though they look more like KDs to me.
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
SPSOT fanThose coupler’s could be ProtoMax (Walthers) couplers, like a KD, but I think they are KDs.
Some people save pieces of string, some save twist-ties from bread bags. I save old light boards from DCC conversions of days gone by:
DCC_PCBb by Edmund, on Flickr
This is only about half of them. I sent a bunch out to several forum members.
DCC_PCBa by Edmund, on Flickr
Someday they will come in handy —
Cheers, Ed
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Those coupler’s could be ProtoMax (Walthers) couplers, like a KD, but I think they are KDs. I don’t have a KD with me to compare though...
The GP20 chassis looks very much like the Life-Like GP7 I just picked up so you should be able to use a TCS LL8 decoder, which is a simple drop-in replacement for the diode light board that came with your locomotive. And the same screws used to secure the light board to the chassis can also be used to secure the LL8 decoder.
If you are thinking of installing LEDs, the LED version of that decoder comes with built-in resistors. All you have to do is replace the incandescent bulbs and solder the front & rear LEDs directly to the blue (common), white, and yellow tabs on the NMRA socket. I also used some black heat shrink as a shroud around the LED bulb to help focus the beam into the front & rear light pipes for the headlights.
yes they are Kadees.