Soundtraxx to help dying Local Hobby Shop's battle evil Internet

[Bergie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by PARKERLEGEND

That does not mean jack to me dawg. The prices are not going down! They will remain the same for us "Consumers" but the prices may go down for the local hobby guy. Those stupid *** tiny units cost more than a dvd player. Innovation in the Model railroader hobby is not like in the electronic business of games, music, tv, etc. In fact they are opposites!!!

DVD player 5 years ago $499
DVD player today $59

Plasma Tv 3 years ago $20,000
Plasma Tv today $3,000

Home PC 5 years ago $999+
Home PC today $400

Cell phones 10 years ago $1000+
Cell phones today Free-$400 for camcoders+camera

Camcorders 10 years ago $1000+
Camcorders today $200

DCC 4 years ago $500
DCC today $500

Decoder 4 years ago $30
Decder today $30

Soundtraxx 3 years ago $119
Soundtraxx today $119

Atlas track 5 years ago Cheaper
atlas track today MORE

Plaster cloth 2 year agos $6.59
Plaster cloth today $8.19

*** is crazy man. With new innovations and easier manufacturing in this shtuff the prices seem to only rise. This is especially for the electronic stuff in this hobby compared to other electronic stuff.
Some of the prices are not accurate but they are close.

First, clean up your language. I don't want swearing here... I don't care if you use symbols to mask your swearing. It's still swearing.

Second, comparing DCC products in a niche marketing with a mass market DVD player doesn't work. Go to Google and search for economy of scale. DVD players have gone down in price because they've made, and continue to make, hundreds of thousands of them. You can't say the same thing for DCC equipment.

Erik

[MAbruce]

I think we all need to stop, take one big step back, and ask an important question:

Just who is this member “Minuteman” and is he/she really a representative of Soundtraxx? The post was suspect, the title contained a provocative remark against the internet (something any dealer or manufacturer would not likely do), and the member profile is blank! Don't you think a real rep would formally identify him/herself???

Until this member can verify his/her identity, I think we all should take this information with a HUGE grain of salt. It could be a troll trying to stir things up here (which did happen).

[Anonymous]

Paul,

Interesting numbers. Thanks for doing the legwork on it.

One other thing that folks should take into consideration. While folks have correctly pointed out that Kadee needed to recoup their R and D costs (which I agree should have already been recouped over the years) their are other nontangibles that need to be taken into account - and for which I do not begrudge Kadee for keeping the price of their couplers a little high during the life of their patent.

The two guys who founded Kadee set the standard for couplers. They had to incurr advertising and marketing costs (ads, attending shows etc) to get the word out. The nowday clones just had to produce clones to match the accepted standard. The Kadee guys also had to start a product and company from scratch. It wouldn't surprise me that in order to get start up capital they deeply robbed their savings or possibly mortgaged their houses. I can't even begin to imagine the risk involved and the stress that that occurred.

Should Kadee have made their invention free for the industry or patent the coupler? I'm unsure about this one. The MTH DCC thing is an example of bad patent protection in my opinion. Related to this is the fact that the NMRA dropped the ball on couplers by refusing to adopt a standard (the horn hook is not an NMRA standard even though it is called sometimes the NMRA coupler) unlike with DCC. Kadee stepped up where the hobby didn't. On the other hand, you don't see much of Rapido which made their N-Scale couplers for use by everyone no cost (and btw was the industry standard for years) and no one can forget what happened to IBM by allowing open architecture for their PC's. This issue can probably be batted around forever.

Bottom line. It appears that the Kadee couplers are superior to others on the market. Kadee has also in my opinion always supported the hobby and I don't mind supporting it.

Just my opinion.

[Bikerdad]

MAP Policies currently reside in a turbulent zone of law.

http://www.fredlaw.com/articles/marketing/mark_0401_qtj.html

http://www.freebornpeters.com/docs/publication/DFD4AFF1-F509-4715-A828-BA99492DB562_document.pdf

[Paul3]

rockythegoat wrote:

QUOTE: is kadee an excellent company? Yes. did they develop an excellent automatic coupler for us to use as opposed to the "horn-hook" one? Undoubtedly. did they reduce prices only once competition hit the streets? looks like it to me in my experience

Unfortunately, your experience is incorrect. After a little dive into the MR archives at my house, I have determined the following:

Sometime between September 1995 and January 1996, Kadee started selling 10- and 20-packs of #5 couplers w/o boxes. In the January 1996 MR, there is at least one dealer selling 10- and 20- packs of Kadees w/o boxes. In this same issue, there is no mention of any other knuckle coupler available, IOW, there are no ads for McHenry (who was the first among the clones, IIRC). Futhermore, there are no other couplers advertised in September 1995.

Sometime later in 1996, McHenry annouced their "New" plastic coupler for sale, as it is in my September 1996 MR. Unfortunately, I am missing Feb-Aug for 1996, so I can't pin-point it (but I can when I get to my club's library tomorrow).

The result is that Kadee did in fact release 10- and 20-packs of couplers before the plastic clones hit the market. It wasn't by much, but it was a pre-emptive strike by Kadee, not reactive. It would only make sense, they would know all too well when their patents would be running out.

What I find amazing is that Kadee makes their couplers available for less money, and still they get grief for it because they didn't do it soon enough. Sigh. It goes to show you just can't win. The same thing happened to Athearn with their Challenger. They dropped prices and what was the lament? Geez...

dkelly wrote:

QUOTE: I think the prices you point re: Kadee couplers from 1993 until now is a significant price drop. 2.95 then and 3.25 now? That's about a 10% increase over 11 years. Check out the 1993 price for gasoline, cars and the house your living in. Would love to buy your house for 10% more than its market price in 1993.

Well, using the Inflation Calculator on the NASA website (http://www1.jsc.nasa.gov/bu2/inflateCPI.html), and that I also have a 1991 Walthers Catalog that also prices #5's at $2.95 for 2 pair, I some up with the following:

$2.95 (in 1991) should equal (in 2003, latest year for calculator) $3.99. Actual price in 2004: $3.25.

A while back (27 Sep 2004), someone once posted the figures for a #5 2-pair pack of Kadees for 1979. willy6 wrote: 1979 Kadee #5 couplers(#380-5) $2.20. Plugging that into the calculator, a 2-pair pack of Kadee #5's should be around $5.57 these days.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[rrinker]

I just had to dig out a 10 year old Model Railroader to check an article. I happened to find Digitrax's add. They were advertising decoders 'starting at' $49.95. That's an absolute rock-bottom low end decoder, no back EMF, no silent running, lights only. Today you can get a TCS decoder that HAS all those features PLUS lighting effects PLUS it's smaller for 1/4 of that.

As for kadee couplers - yeah the knock-offs sure got them to lower their prices, but I have equipments with all sorts of brands - Accumates, P2K, and even two cars with some EZ-Mates because that's all the lousy excuse for a LHS had and I needed knuckle couplers. Plus older stuff I converted before the copies were available, so they have real Kadees in them. About the only ones I haven't tried so far is McHenry. And you know what, all those other ones I have STINK (well, I wanted to use a different word, but let's keep it clean, this is a family hobby after all..). The EZ-Mates are probably the worse, they fit poorly and will need all sorts of shimming to keep them level and stop the wobbling around the mounting pin. The 3-piece Accumates are a pain in the posterior too, keeping it all together as you try to install it into the coupler pocket, only to find you pinched one of the plastic hair springs when putting the lid on, or ou didn;t have the 'air hose' jammed in hard enough and it falls out. The P2K oes have a tendecney to spring out past the normal 'open' position if they get bumped while assembling the locomotives they come on, and never can be put back in place. It really seems at least in the coupler business you get what you pay for - I am switching all the non-Kadee ones I have to Kadees, as I am rapidly tiring of the various problems with the others, and if this is the kind of issues I'm goign to have when I'm just 'playing around' with the trains while building my layout, I can only imagine the nightmare trying to actually OPERATE with this junk would be.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

Or better.. the late 60's price for Home, Car and gas.

Home 4 Bedrooms $19,000

Car 1970 Ford Maverick with the V8 and air Approx $3,400.

Gas less than 25 cents a gallon.

Riverossi 2-8-8-2 (Or was it AHM?) less than 100-

Wages? I dont know.

[Anonymous]

Paul,

I think the prices you point re: Kadee couplers from 1993 until now is a significant price drop. 2.95 then and 3.25 now? That's about a 10% increase over 11 years. Check out the 1993 price for gasoline, cars and the house your living in. Would love to buy your house for 10% more than its market price in 1993.

[Anonymous]

The internet is evil?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rockythegoat

highiron: i'm the guilty one in re the "boycotting kadee" issue. actually, i'm not boycotting kadee, so much as, i will only use their specialty couplers for odd situations, due to my comment in my previous post.

is kadee an excellent company? Yes. did they develop an excellent automatic coupler for us to use as opposed to the "horn-hook" one? Undoubtedly. did they reduce prices only once competition hit the streets? looks like it to me in my experience.

whereas the cost of a pack of #5's may have gone up, i'm pretty sure that it wasn't until the competitors hit the market, that they began to repackage into special deals such as the "super pack" and "bulk pack." if they were around prior, i never saw them listed in any catalog or on the hook at the LHS.

i am NOT a kadee basher. it just felt to me, that the only reason the hobbyist got a break on the #5 coupler price, was due to competition. personally, i just didn't like how this particular instance. [2c]

like i said before, its a free market. they can charge what they want, when they want. i can also spend my money, where i want, when i want.

Hmm. I can live with this I did not realize until you posted that Kaydee did NOT offer bulk packs of 10 couplers or 20 Couplers until AFTER McHenry and others started competing back in the mid 90's You either bought them by the two pair or you went home emptyhanded back in the day.

I now can see where the changes came on thanks for your post. It helped both of us already.[^]

[johncolley]

For comparison we have 2 lhs's one is 50 miles west and the other is 65 miles east. The west shop is general hobby with cars, planes ,boats, and a pretty fair selection of trains stuff. They will order anything and add the shipping to full retail. Now the one to the east is all trains, will order for you as above and charge a bit high plus shipping. But they also do decoder installations, have HO and N operating layouts, do all kinds of related clinics, sponsor semi-annual swap meets, and in general are part of the model railroading community. I think that is the key for LHS's to stay in business. With the net not going away anytime soon they get on the ride and increase their services, to their advantage, instead of bemoaning and badmouthing it. It is not an "evil" it is just a newer form of competition that you either embrace or reject and that has always been the way of business.

[jrbernier]

Tony has generaly give between a 20-22% discount on most items. A lot of DCC is sold to dealers on a 'short' discount, so I have not really seen a lot of better 'deals' out there(the eBay 'deal' are always very suspect, IMHO). The other thing is that Tony pushes more DCC stuff than almost anyone and usually has very good inventory in stock, or knows when he will be getting more. Also his technical support folks are very good. This MAP policy sure looks like the old 'Fair Trade' stuff that was outlawed in many states years ago. I think the 'call for quote' is how everyone gets around it at this time. The only MR firm that I know of that absolutely will pull your access to their product if you give any kind of discount is Centerline - that guy can be very vocal about pricing and his 'patent' - strange as Aztec uses the same technology in their track cleaners(offset roller) and he has never sued them!

Jim Bernier

[rockythegoat]

highiron: i'm the guilty one in re the "boycotting kadee" issue. actually, i'm not boycotting kadee, so much as, i will only use their specialty couplers for odd situations, due to my comment in my previous post.

is kadee an excellent company? Yes. did they develop an excellent automatic coupler for us to use as opposed to the "horn-hook" one? Undoubtedly. did they reduce prices only once competition hit the streets? looks like it to me in my experience.

whereas the cost of a pack of #5's may have gone up, i'm pretty sure that it wasn't until the competitors hit the market, that they began to repackage into special deals such as the "super pack" and "bulk pack." if they were around prior, i never saw them listed in any catalog or on the hook at the LHS.

i am NOT a kadee basher. it just felt to me, that the only reason the hobbyist got a break on the #5 coupler price, was due to competition. personally, i just didn't like how this particular instance. [2c]

like i said before, its a free market. they can charge what they want, when they want. i can also spend my money, where i want, when i want.

[Anonymous]

I think QSI has forced soundtraxx to completly redesign there decoders to be competive Just my opinion of the delay of there new release.I also feel that Tonys is probably the biggest supporter of the MAP plan.I had a conversation with Tony several months back after buying my Lenz system.I looked as i most allways do at Tonys prices on the set 100,then I went shopping around E-bay other sites of well known sellers found one on e-bay 30 dollars cheaper buy it now price from a seller with 100% feedback done deal.Next I wanted a new power supply Magna force and programing booster back to tonys while asking him questions it came out that I bought the Lenz elsewhere from what he considered a cut rate seller,I am glad my hearing aid was not on high.After hearing his speech about free web information and some plan about charging for viewing web sites like his on the internet so it would cost you to get their info then go buy elsewhere I was totally amazed.I feel this is just a step in that direction,map plan controlling the advertised price is still in affect controlling the price.BTW i did buy the items from Tonys and the service as far as shipping was exellent as allways.I think there is some conception that all sellers who offer a discount price or who sell there items on places like e-bay are some evil cut rate people who care little more about the hobby than just fast profit.I know several people who sell on e-bay that are club members they are active within the NMRA and sell there as a way to advance their enjoyment of the hobby.The fact that they can sell cheaper well is great that is where I choose to spend my money.Since soundtraxx only cares about the supporting its larger outlets,are they not in fact being detramental to the little guys who get a good deal and then try to pass it on.The MAP plan to me means either I pay tonys price to Tony or I will have to pay Tonys price to someone else,but I am going to have to pay that price one way or another.Wow free enterprise isn't it great.Terry

[Anonymous]

Heck I recall tha Athearn Blue Box kits of the day was what... $2.50 when daddy gives you 5 bucks to spend and you can choose two nice athearns but must spend 2.50 on kaydees because the [censored] horn and hook couplers plain dont work for me... that was what I had to learn.. pick which of the two favorite kits to buy with kaydees and save the second favorite for the next visit to the store. Back then there was no fear of limited runs or advance orders etc etc.

Maybe I need to re read this entire thread carefully, I see no one boycotting Kaydee. Kaydee is among the most respected products in this hobby. It probably has been around longer than I am on this earth.

[Paul3]

rockythegoat wrote:

QUOTE: For us, ahem, older folks, remember how much a pack of Kadee #5 couplers use to be? Once McHenry and the rest came out with their automatic couplers, Kadee dropped their price like a hot potato. That irritated me, which is one reason I have not bought a Kadee #5 in years. I felt like, "It was okay to gouge me for years, but, once you see some competition, you decide its okay to lower prices." Free market? Certainly. Spend my money somewhere else? Certainly.

I understand recouping the costs for R&D, but, I feel pretty darn confident that in the case of Kadee #5's, the R&D and start up costs were well recouped over the years.

What are you talking about? I happen to have a 1993 Walthers catalog, and the cost of a pack (2 pair) of Kadee #5 couplers was $2.95 (and this was long before McHenry or any of the other "clones" came out).

According to today's Walthers.com, a pack of Kadee #5 (2 pair) is $3.25 (on sale for $2.98).

So, where is this big price drop? I just don't see it; heck, it went up. Why are you boycotting Kadee over a non-existant price drop?

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kennyt47

I thought "Price fixing" was illegal here. OH MAP is only price control not price fixing

Since they are careful to make it the advertising only, they get around the price fixing. I'm not a lawyer, but I suspect this is still illegal, problem is the dealers don't have the resources to fight it. Horizon Hobbies is doing a similar thing in limiting who is a dealer they will wholesale to, which may affect the prices of Athearn and MDC.

This makes MRC's under the table sound system look pretty good - costs less and one will work with all your locos. [:D][:D]

Notice that Tony says NCE is doing the same thing. Notice whose system is the most expensive at Tony's. I wonder if NCE has noticed that I am not considering their system as I consider whose DCC system to buy this year.

Enjoy
Paul

[Bikerdad]

Kenny,

MAP is not "price fixing", it is simply one of the means by which manufacturer's can directly influence the market. Only "authorized dealers" are restricted by MAP, it only applies to ADVERTISING, not the actual sale price, and it is perfectly legal, has been for a longggg time.

The retailer can sell the product for any price he wants.

[Anonymous]

I thought "Price fixing" was illegal here. OH MAP is only price control not price fixing

[Anonymous]

Point one -- Actually, dealers can sell below the 20% MAP. What dealers cannot do is ADVERTISE a price below the MAP. Tony's has a full web page with the SOUNDTRAXX notice on it. If Tony wants to sell below the MAP he can put a "call for price" in the ad. You call and he quotes the lower price.

Point two-- Those who believe that prices will go down when more competition arrives are right on. However, the competitors need to be VERY carefull about patents. Look what happened to BLI and Lionel when they got crosswise with Mike's Train House.

Jimbo

[Anonymous]

I too recall Kaydee couplers and the cost. For years I grimly paid the cost of installing Kaydees on favorite rolling stock while the no so good performers kept the horn and hook couplers as a sort of a "marker" that it does not run well on the track.

Now since the mid 90's other coupler makers got into competing directly with Kaydee. I still buy kaydees by the 20 pack because eventaully the other couplers fail. I do this several times a year. The same thing goes for metal wheels. I want the rolling stock to perform very well and will gladly buy Kaydee and Metal Wheels to get the performance.

I feel that Tony's is indeed a "good" outfit, they have taken the time to keep the website current with information that may not be readily posted elsewhere.

I was thinking about the talk about internet breaking the LHS's as part of the title to this thread and I kind of am on the fence. I recently used the internet to find out information about a Factory Sale that otherwise would have never heard about and supplied my LHS with the information and a sale was made. Yes I may have bought at a lower price on mail order or the internet.. but I did not have to pay list and the service I was given justified the support I gave to my LHS.

My LHS sells Sound devices and Decoders. They are a pretty complete product line with the ability to find and special order specific componets as required by the customer. Looking at that small section where these are sold versus the diversity of other products that are availible ranging from Games, Rocketry, O gauge, kits, RTR and books etc etc etc... I think this store will survive for a good while based on the sheer amount of diversity.

If QSI releases the products to other engine makers and or to the public for installation in own engines at home, they had better maintain the quality. I for one will not accept a "Lite" or "Low calorie" version of the real beef. (Why do we talk food?) And the other producers will have to compete and someone will see the revenue come in as long thier products perform at a good price.

[Anonymous]

Wow After I posted what I did on this topic I was thinking that I was going to be attacked for saying what I said and i was suprised to see most of us feel that way. That shtuff is funny.
rrinker I was not off base because I stated the prices are not exact to prevent a response to correct me as you did. but aww well huh? As someone stated when it comes to computers that is not true that prices go up. $ years ago the best speed for a computer was a 750MHZ now adays we have what 2.4GIGS+ !!! I guess the prices should have rised then. No these chips get smaller and the prices go down.
One more big example of prices high then go low

Sony Playstation I was $350+ new but now you can get a new one for $100 or less even SP2 is only $149 now.
Soundtraxx step up your game man!!!!! I hope they file chapter 11 one day so I can contact them and congratulate them for running their crap down. As soon as new makers come out this may happen. Hopefully soon

[simon1966]

So the MAP is to be no more than 20% below the list price. I would be curious to know about anywhere that was selling the Soundtraxx line at a significantly greater discount? I see a few web sites at 21-22% down, but not much more.

I can't see this making very much difference to anyone. As noted by others, the recent trend towards sound equipped loco's surely cuts into the Soundtraxx market and if QSI or any other manufacturer of decoders (They all must be seeing the trend) comes out with good low cost sound decoders, then Soundtraxx will have to respond in some way.

[rockythegoat]

The comment made above about SoundTraxx needing competition I think hit the nail on the head.

For us, ahem, older folks, [^] remember how much a pack of Kadee #5 couplers use to be? Once McHenry and the rest came out with their automatic couplers, Kadee dropped their price like a hot potato. That irritated me, which is one reason I have not bought a Kadee #5 in years. I felt like, "It was okay to gouge me for years, but, once you see some competition, you decide its okay to lower prices." Free market? Certainly. Spend my money somewhere else? Certainly.

I understand recouping the costs for R&D, but, I feel pretty darn confident that in the case of Kadee #5's, the R&D and start up costs were well recouped over the years.

I'm just getting into DCC and have had no desire to purchase SoundTraxx decoder for pretty much the same reason. LHS or Internet has no bearing on the issue.

And don't even get me started on MTH!!!![:p][:p][:p]

[Anonymous]

I think if Tonys and the other hobby shops put as much effort into being competive as they do whinning about sellers who can offer a price discount such as the many hobby sellers on e-bay then they wouldn't be struggling.The post title itself the evil internet shouldn't it be battling discount sellers.I think Tonys is a great site the info he offers is exceptional,but is offered free.That in no way makes me feel that I should spend what ever amount more on a perticular item I can buy off other sites It only makes me give them first consideration if they cannot compete within a reasonable amount they can watch my dollar go bye bye..Soundtraxx has been the only option for good quality sound{my opinion} for awhile now,if this changes witch I have heard also the rumor of add on qsi systems for LLP2K they may very well enforce there map plan right out of buisness.There new tunsami decoder if indeed is ever new and released better be outstanding in quality,because if the prices of their older sound system do not or are not allowed to decrease then they will be stacked up high on the shelf. Terry.

[Anonymous]

After experiencing Broadway's performance with QSI (I now have three of them) I will buy QSI almost exclusively now. There are a whole wall full of soundtraxx and digitrax DCC and sound stuff costing similar to MSRP but not too bad because you have to install em yourself. I am not yet ready to cross that bridge.

One person spoke about people trying to sell at List on ebay ... I am on eBay several times a day "Hunting" a specific item that is oop and too see long long lists of items that are very close to MSRP and "Buy it now!" tags next to them that are apparently listed by stores. I think some are virtual and some are brock and mortor. This was too much like recent train shows where I have seen 10 year old new products being offered at near retail of today's offerings.

I find it amazing that they will demonstrate the product at trains shows and people will want to buy it after hearing it using the "WOW factor" by not making the product availible will lose sales as the customer is forced to hunt for a LHS that has the items and discovering the necessity to match the item to the loco. Some LHS's may install it for you but you are expected to do it yourself.

The statement that customers will get list price direct from the factory means that people will go to a dealer that does have the item or perhaps discount it a small percentage to generate sales.

Also they like the word "Advertised Price" alot in the declaration... we recognize that MR may carry a price that is advertised by the manufactor, websites may carry the retail price but... many will discount and then advertise a lower price. Or worse some will ask you to contact them for the price during a sale. (What good is a sale if you are not told the price up front??)

Additionally they indicate prices given within the confines of trading booths at train shows, Counter tops at LHS's with dealers free to set thier own prices and phone price quotes not being applicable to the new MAP policy.. because those prices are not considered advertised prices....

That is alot of double talk here, most people in the hobby understands what things cost and they have a understanding due to years of experience trying to get items that are Limited Run for two weeks and suddenly OOP for years. I doubt that DCC and Sound products will suffer the same wild limits because Analog (DC) is slowly being shown the door while DCC is being "Cheaply" made to appeal to the folks who might want it for their 30 dollar christmas trainset on a loop.

Then they discover that cheap Sound or DCC may not stand up to thier expectation. Recent threads in MR Forums have been showing us the battle between the Cheap DCC versus the Expensive DCC and the reasons advocating both.

I better stop here because I am slowly confusing myself with so many points to maintain. So I summerize:

1- DCC and sound are becoming "De Facto Standard" in Model Railroading. The savings in wiring and the enjoyment of Steam chuff or EMD Low Idle cranking is apparent in the community.

2- QSI is already "Built In" to the loco, I dont need to worry about finding the right decoders or speakers and installing them. This simplifies my modeling world quite a bit. Eventually many products will have some form of built in ready to go features and QSI is uniquely positioned to take advantage of it.

3- Anyone who sells a hobby product usually sells at a discount. This practice has apparently started to anger the manufacters and we may be seeing further cracks in the infrastructure as the battle to find the exact item for your model railroad goes to the internet and information seeking for the lowest price. The rest will simply not sell the item for a long time or sell it to a customer unaware of the lower prices out there who may feel "Cheated"

4- Discounts used to be very rare in the LHS. Items that had no value after a year or more and not in demand got discounts so they can be made to go out the door. Much like unwanted pets at the county "Pound" before they are put to sleep.

5- Discounts being applied to almost everything to entice customers to come into the door because they cannot or will not buy at list (Read not enough money in paycheck) eventually breaks the entire system from the factory all the way thru as people seek to enforce or make policy to attempt a tighter fisted control of a problem that started to escalate years ago.

[RMax1]

I've bought some decoders from Loy's Toys in Arkansas. Fantastic service. I checked with a couple of LHS's around here as to what decoder would be good for my Proto 2000 E8 A/B set. Loy's knew exactly, gave me options provided instructions and other information over the phone. The largest LHS in the area told me "well I'm sure we can figure out something" . The stuff was at my door in a couple of days with a big thick catalog and other information. It took me about 5 minutes to install the first one. The 2 TCS decoders work great. Every once in a while Walthers sends me these catalogs in the mail. Most of the time they are no big deal but sometimes you can get great stuff at a really good price. Call them on the phone give them the info and a week later viola it's at the house. IHC, Walthers, Loy's, Model Expo, Life Like and some others have been great. Mixed results with Long's and a few others but still not bad. . You think the EBay people are bad, look at some of the Train Show people. $7 to get in drive 30 one way and pay list. I don't think so. I'll order from Walthers.

RMax

[jrbernier]

I just checked Tony's site and compared what I paid for the DSD-B280LC compared to the current price - It appers the same. This MAP plan appears to be the usual 'dealer control' when there is no competition present. The sad fact is that Tony has better 'remote' customer support than most LHS's can provide 'locally'. Maybe QSI needs to get some more investors and increase their production capability.

Jim Bernier

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker


You also have to realize that as you make things SMALLER they cost more. That $50 decoder from 4 years ago was a LOT bigger than the $30 micro-decoder you can buy today. If you compare apples to apples, the price HAS gone down, and the features have gone UP.

Not in electronics. The three driving forces behind any electronic product are R&D, parts, and labor. All three go DOWN significantly when you shrink a board. Thru Hole resistors are about two cents apiece, and SMT resistors are about 1/5 a cent apiece. SOIC's have more functionality in smaller sizes, and cost less. Board pricing is directly tied into how much material goes into the board. And when you utilize all SMT components, your labor costs basically go away, since there's little or no manual parts placement or board handeling.

One of the reasons that Digitrax and Soundtraxx costs so much is that they make their products in house. They have to pay for all those half-million dollar SMT machines they've got lying around their shops. And considering how hard it is to actually get product from those two companies (two years to wait for a decoder?), their plant managers suck. Their pricing could probably be cut in HALF just by outsourcing their board stuffing operations to an OEM PCB house in this country (yes, there are still a few left. I'm sitting in one now).

Soujndtraxx's biggest problem is that they're a monopoly. Once QSI decides to sell their sound/decoder boards as seperate items, watch Soundtraxx's pricing tumble. Personally, I'm sticking with QSI and MRC, just because I've never liked Soundtraxx's pricing.