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Rivarossi Large Wheel Flanges

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  • Member since
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  • From: Bakersfield, CA 93308
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Rivarossi Large Wheel Flanges
Posted by RR_Mel on Friday, August 2, 2019 10:48 AM

I was wondering if anyone has successfully trimmed Rivarossi large flange wheels.
 
I was wondering if I could use my Dremel with a fine grinding stone.  I was kicking around mounting a Cab Forward driver assembly in my bench vice and turning the drive shaft with my 4 volt drill at 600 RPM then using the Dremel grinding stone to trim off some of the Pizza Cutter flanges.  I do not intend to take them down to RP-25 specs, just to the point where they look better.
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by gmpullman on Friday, August 2, 2019 12:03 PM

Sounds like quite an effort.

I would be concerned about too much heat generated that would make the plastic hub get soft and distort. Also, watch the grinding dust from both the stone (grit getting into gears and bearings) or metal dust getting into brushes.

Good Luck, Ed

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Posted by RR_Mel on Friday, August 2, 2019 2:50 PM

I’m pretty well fixed for spare parts for my Rivarossis.  I have several spare driver assemblies.  I intend to drop the wheel set in a spare frame assembly and turn the wheels at about 100 RPM with my 600 RPM cordless drill.  The Rivarossi axel gear ratio is about 6½ to 1, the total ratio with both gear reduction in place is 13:1.
 
I don’t plan on grinding very much off each wheel flange.  Low pressure on the grinding stone shouldn’t create any heat on the wheel.
 
I have several spare wheels to experiment with before I get down to actually using a wheel set off a great working locomotive.
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by sandusky on Friday, August 2, 2019 3:54 PM

A fellow recommended the loco running under it's own power with a dremel grinding disc against the flange, then a thorough cleaning. Gently, I would imagine. Cannot confirm, have not yet tried it myself, but the source seems like a somewhat prolific repairman.

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Posted by rrebell on Friday, August 2, 2019 5:05 PM

I did an 0-4-0, no problem. I ran the engine at full speed and ran my Dremil swithing between wheels so the never got hot till I got the flange depth where I wanted (for code 70).

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Posted by peahrens on Friday, August 2, 2019 7:21 PM

Is there an issue of whether to simply reduce the diameter (such as against a flat file) vs. ensuring a somewhat sharp edge so the flange will more likely not pick points?  Just curious as I formerly tinkered with a 4-6-2 secondary brand with a file, with same objective as yours to ensure ok handling of my Atlas code 83 crossings, which seem tight regarding depth for larger flanges.

Let us know how it goes.

Paul

Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent

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Posted by RR_Mel on Friday, August 2, 2019 7:48 PM

peahrens

Is there an issue of whether to simply reduce the diameter (such as against a flat file) vs. ensuring a somewhat sharp edge so the flange will more likely not pick points?  Just curious as I formerly tinkered with a 4-6-2 secondary brand with a file, with same objective as yours to ensure ok handling of my Atlas code 83 crossings, which seem tight regarding depth for larger flanges.

Let us know how it goes.

 

I do have some concern with the edge of the flange after reducing the size.  I’m thinking that I can work the inside of the flange with the Dremel, I have a pretty good assortment of grinding stones.
 
I am worried about the smaller flanges picking the rails, I’ve never had a problem with the Rivarossi large flanges picking the point rails.
 
I don’t want to get even close to the tire for fear of dinging them, one slip and the wheel would be a goner.
 
I’ve been restoring Rivarossi Cab Forwards and Y6Bs for close to twenty years so I’m very familiar with the driver assemblies.  I have 19 under my belt and everyone runs better than new.
 
The first time I took on building a brass frame for one of my Cab Forwards I figured it was worth the effort and it came out absolutely perfect.  I have got that down to a very easy task, I’ve built five brass frames and each one gets easier to do.  I’m hoping the wheels go that well.
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by doctorwayne on Friday, August 2, 2019 10:52 PM

I turned down the driver flanges on this IHC Mogul...



With the boiler/cab assembly off, and wires from my shop transformer hooked to the motor, I set the throttle to a medium speed.  Then, while holding the loco upright, touched the face of a cut-off disc, running at fairly high speed in a motor tool, to the bottom of flange of one of the spinning drivers. 
Since the spoked wheels are plastic, contact was maintained for only a few seconds, to avoid overheating the driver's tire and damaging the plastic.  I simply moved on, from wheel-to-wheel in the same manner, until all flanges presented a more prototypical appearance.  The wheelset in the lead truck was replaced with one from my parts department, as were those on the tender...

Wayne

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Posted by snjroy on Saturday, August 3, 2019 6:31 AM

I removed the flanges of the middle drivers of a Bachmann 2-10-4 to make it run on my 22" curves. I basically did the same thing as the Doctor did. It worked. My Rivarossis have rubber rings on some of the drivers. I would change these wheels in order to remove the flanges.

 

Simon

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Posted by RR_Mel on Saturday, August 3, 2019 8:36 AM

doctorwayne

I turned down the driver flanges on this IHC Mogul...


With the boiler/cab assembly off, and wires from my shop transformer hooked to the motor, I set the throttle to a medium speed.  Then, while holding the loco upright, touched the face of a cut-off disc, running at fairly high speed in a motor tool, to the bottom of flange of one of the spinning drivers. 
Since the spoked wheels are plastic, contact was maintained for only a few seconds, to avoid overheating the driver's tire and damaging the plastic.  I simply moved on, from wheel-to-wheel in the same manner, until all flanges presented a more prototypical appearance.  The wheelset in the lead truck was replaced with one from my parts department, as were those on the tender...

 

Wayne

 

Wayne
 
Your loco looks very good!  I’m sure the IHC flanges weren’t as large or deep as my Rivarossi flanges, did you do anything for the thickness at the edge after reducing the flange?  Another worry is point rails with a wider flange, the wider flange shouldn't pick the points but could be a problem elsewhere.
 
Another concern is the look of the Rivarossi wheel with reduced flanges.  Rivarossi engineers screwed up and the scale 63” drivers are measured at the flanges not the tire.
 
I have one “last run” Rivarossi Cab Forward with RP-25 wheels (or close) and the drivers just look larger than the older versions sitting side by side.  
 
The older large flange Rivarossi drivers measure .637” at the tire or 55½”.  The RP-25 (newer) flange drivers measure .723” at the tire or a true 63” Baldwin Cab Forward wheel.
 
The Rivarossi Y6B measures .586” at the tire or 49¼”, the Y6B has 58” drivers.
 
I’m not even close to being a rivet counter but I’m worried about the wheels just looking too small for such large locomotives.  With the large flanges they look OK to me.
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by doctorwayne on Saturday, August 3, 2019 11:04 AM

RR_Mel
....I’m sure the IHC flanges weren’t as large or deep as my Rivarossi flanges, did you do anything for the thickness at the edge after reducing the flange? Another worry is point rails with a wider flange, the wider flange shouldn't pick the points but could be a problem elsewhere....

You're probably right about the IHC flanges being less than those on the older Rivarossi locomotives.  I didn't bother attempting to thin the flanges that remained, reasoning that if they worked okay with the larger flanges, they should be alright with what's left.  I've had no issues caused by the modifications.

I did, however, replace the original motor in the 37. 
While it ran well with a brass Mogul (also re-motored and extensively modified), it required quite a bit more current to get moving, with the result that the brass one pulled the IHC loco and the trailing tonnage for at least a car-length or-so before the 37's motor kicked-in.

Here's the re-worked 34, (formerly a Boston & Maine B-15) also with a cab from a Bachmann Consolidation, and the "Economy" valve chests re-worked as sorta-regular piston valves...

The two together are pretty-decent haulers....

RR_Mel
The older large flange Rivarossi drivers measure .637” at the tire or 55½”. The RP-25 (newer) flange drivers measure .723” at the tire or a true 63” Baldwin Cab Forward wheel. The Rivarossi Y6B measures .586” at the tire or 49¼”, the Y6B has 58” drivers.

That's quite a disparity from the prototypes' wheels, so I can appreciate your comment about them looking okay with the large flanges.

It would be nice if you could get nickel-silver tubing, in suitable sizes and thicknesses, to re-tire the drivers over the existing too-small tires, while leaving the too-deep flanges in place.  I'd guess that the resultant thicker tires would be less noticeable than the current too-deep flanges, which, with the new tires, would likely be just right.

Wayne

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Posted by rbturner on Saturday, August 3, 2019 11:09 AM
I have done several locos using the Dremel method described by others here. It worked well. While doing the work I used an NMRA standards gauge to monitor my progress.
Randy
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Posted by RR_Mel on Saturday, August 3, 2019 12:53 PM

Wayne
 
After giving my project a lot of thought I have decided to give it up.  Between my Arthritis giving me fits and because all my Rivarossi locomotives run so good as is I decided “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it”.
 
Looking closely at the driver assemblies making the wheels smaller would be too noticeable and replacing the wheels with scale accurate diameters the flanges would touch.
 
Having the one newer Cab Forward and comparing it with the older ones any attempt to make them look better with smaller flanges would be a wasted effort.  The new driver assemblies are totally different from the older ones.
 
I did find out that there are three sizes of Rivarossi Cab Forward wheels.  Apparently the original early locomotives had really deep flanges then came a slight reduction of the flange only, the wheel tire diameter is the same at .637”.  The newer Cab Forward wheels are very close to RP-25 specs, still have sharper flanges than RP-25 wheels.
 
Earlier on I had looked into replacing the wheels with Greenway 63” Wheels (only one locomotive because of the cost) but the flanges touch in the Rivarossi frame.
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by doctorwayne on Saturday, August 3, 2019 6:17 PM

RR_Mel
...Earlier on I had looked into replacing the wheels with Greenway 63” Wheels (only one locomotive because of the cost) but the flanges touch in the Rivarossi frame....

I used the Greenway drivers to redo this brass Mogul for a friend, as the original drivers' centres had a bad case of zincpest...

It also got a new can motor and a NWSL gearbox.

I'll be putting Greenway drivers in this John English Pacific, along with a gearbox and new motor...

...it's currently torn down...

...until I find some free time.  The new drivers should give more reliable pick-up than the brass originals.

Mel, I think that you made the best decision regarding those old Rivarossi drivers.

Wayne

 

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Posted by RR_Mel on Saturday, August 3, 2019 6:48 PM

doctorwayne

 

Mel, I think that you made the best decision regarding those old Rivarossi drivers.

Wayne

 

 

Thanks Wayne, I needed that!
 
With a little TLC and a bit of elbow grease the Rivarossi Articulateds will perform as good if not better than the expensive ones.  I've added 8 to 10 ounces to my Rivarossis and the drawbar is well over 5 ounces on everyone.  With dual Canon EN-22 can motors and extra weight they run as good or better than any new locomotive.
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 

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