How true, happened at all the ones I used to shop at here and they are all trains only, if you are not a people person why do you run a train shop. Prime example of this is a local shop which every year had a swap meet for people to sell their want to get rid ofs train wise and of course the store was open too. The line to buy stuff in the store was at least the length of the building and it was that way most of the day. They stopped doing it because one of the swap meet people happened to work at another train shop 40 miles away, they thought he was selling stuff for the other shop (which was not true). They lost their biggest sales day of the year and a lot of once a year customers like myself and all my freinds.
Only if they buy up or otherwise collude with every competitor, or engage in other such nefarioous tactics to gain market share. I really hate the Microosooft example - at the time, every fresh install of Windoows laoded not only an IE icon, but one for connecting to AOL (clearly not a Microsoft product) right on the desktop.
Going to be hard for Amazon to take over in some of the more specialized areas like model trains. Yeah there's 7 pages on Andre's link - but half of it is junk, duplicates, or just books or some really garbage video content some people are trying to market (you can get better for free on YouTube, not to mention paid content for less with MRVP)
Did the internet change things? Greatly. But some stores were able to adapt, others sat by and watched the world pass them by. MB Klein transformed from a large storefront with mostly in person sales to one of the biggest internet model train dealers. Caboose is still around (have to remember to stop in there when I am in Denver next month), still has a retail storefront, but they too are a huge internet presence. Dinosaurs who refuse to change are going extinct. Or changing to other hobbies with a larger following. My former LHS is still there - and if yoou are looking for out of production Walthers kits, it's probably the place to go, they have shelves stacked full of dusty boxes that have been there probably 20 years. Still have BB kits, and others, too. All at full MSRP. If you know someone, you cna get 10% off. Stacked oon shelves as high as I cna reach, with narrow aisles (added more rows of shelves after the palce was built - so the lighting is bad, often over the shelf instead of over the aisle), so the train stuff pretty much never moves. Little new inventory. They will order from Walthers, but always at full MSRP. And only once a significant number of orders stack up. Frankly, the owner doesn't give a darn about trains, they are there for RC cars (and some planes). Provide a poor experience, and no wonder people turn to internet sites to order stuff. The supposed demise of the LHS is in many cases self-inflicted.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrebellYes they are but it is a case of last man standing which Amazon hopes to be.
Last man standing - wouldn't that violate antitrust laws?
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/09/antitrust-law.asp
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Yes they are but it is a case of last man standing which Amazon hopes to be. This country has a bunch of people who invest in such things, some times it works like Google and some times it dosn't (Blockbuster, which is also a prime example of what making a wrong move can do in the modern world).
rrebell nealknows With all due respect, when the Big wholesalers changed their ways of distribution, that was a big deal to many. It hurt them. Why do you think they started to sell direct? The internet has changed the way ALL retail sales are generated, and not just here. There are other posts in these forums on how some of the larger LHS stores changed their business model. If they didn't keep up with the times, many had no choice but to shut down. Personal expenses and disposable income all come into play. You're either in the business or not. If you let your business deterioriate, of course you can't afford the rent. There are many successful LHS out there, saw the change and reacted accordingly. Again, not just in the model train business but other hobbies, crafts, and more. The internet effect is not overblown, it's out of control. Go read what the gov't wants to do with the likes of the big "A" and others who dominate all aspects of retail. It's here and to some, it's a heartache. The government likes to blame alot of things on alot of things. Not saying that there is no effect at all, just it is over blown and other factors are the tipping point. Take retail sails in general. The malls are in trouble due to building too many (many were built because of cetain tax breaks). Also many of the stores in the mall are in trouble because of leveraged buyouts etc. Everybody cites Amazon as the big problem but how can a company that has been around since 1994 but has still not made a profit overall, I mean like not one dime and the only money they are making is in non retail space. Used to be if you lose money for 20+ years, you call it a hobby and not a buisness.
nealknows With all due respect, when the Big wholesalers changed their ways of distribution, that was a big deal to many. It hurt them. Why do you think they started to sell direct? The internet has changed the way ALL retail sales are generated, and not just here. There are other posts in these forums on how some of the larger LHS stores changed their business model. If they didn't keep up with the times, many had no choice but to shut down. Personal expenses and disposable income all come into play. You're either in the business or not. If you let your business deterioriate, of course you can't afford the rent. There are many successful LHS out there, saw the change and reacted accordingly. Again, not just in the model train business but other hobbies, crafts, and more. The internet effect is not overblown, it's out of control. Go read what the gov't wants to do with the likes of the big "A" and others who dominate all aspects of retail. It's here and to some, it's a heartache.
With all due respect, when the Big wholesalers changed their ways of distribution, that was a big deal to many. It hurt them. Why do you think they started to sell direct? The internet has changed the way ALL retail sales are generated, and not just here. There are other posts in these forums on how some of the larger LHS stores changed their business model. If they didn't keep up with the times, many had no choice but to shut down. Personal expenses and disposable income all come into play. You're either in the business or not. If you let your business deterioriate, of course you can't afford the rent. There are many successful LHS out there, saw the change and reacted accordingly. Again, not just in the model train business but other hobbies, crafts, and more.
The internet effect is not overblown, it's out of control. Go read what the gov't wants to do with the likes of the big "A" and others who dominate all aspects of retail. It's here and to some, it's a heartache.
The government likes to blame alot of things on alot of things. Not saying that there is no effect at all, just it is over blown and other factors are the tipping point. Take retail sails in general. The malls are in trouble due to building too many (many were built because of cetain tax breaks). Also many of the stores in the mall are in trouble because of leveraged buyouts etc. Everybody cites Amazon as the big problem but how can a company that has been around since 1994 but has still not made a profit overall, I mean like not one dime and the only money they are making is in non retail space. Used to be if you lose money for 20+ years, you call it a hobby and not a buisness.
And yet Amazon scares the bejeezus out of other retailers.
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-amazon-industry-displacement/
You can even buy model railroad items from Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=ho+scale&lo=list&page=2&qid=1561086185&sprefix=ho+scale&ref=is_pn_1
Edit: I’m planning to buy some #80 drill bits from them. Or perhaps more accurately, through them.
Andre
Well, I didn't see anything in there that said they wouldn't sell to dealers. So I don't know if there is any change in that regard.
Also, on their website they describe a standing order program which can be limited by car types you don't want - of course you then get whatever they produce when they produce it.
I love collectors, they buy up lots of stock which encourages more production.
Personally, I very seldom preorder - have only done it twice, in both cases I prepaid and got a discount and it was for locomotives I really wanted and knew would be in limited supply (not uncommon in S). Otherwise, I'm happy to buy stuff that's already available.
Paul
SeeYou190 mbinsewi I've never bought any of their frieght cars, . You are missing out. They are magnificent. . I must have at least 25 of their 40 foot PS-1 boxcars. That is about 1/5 of my fleet being a single model! . . The two bay open hopper is the most common style STRATTON AND GILLETTE hopper car. . . I only have one of their covered hoppers, and I backdated it a bit, but it made all my other covered hoppers look bad. . . -Kevin .
mbinsewi I've never bought any of their frieght cars,
.
You are missing out. They are magnificent.
I must have at least 25 of their 40 foot PS-1 boxcars. That is about 1/5 of my fleet being a single model!
The two bay open hopper is the most common style STRATTON AND GILLETTE hopper car.
I only have one of their covered hoppers, and I backdated it a bit, but it made all my other covered hoppers look bad.
-Kevin
All three are excellent models and at least 2, possibly all 3, come painted for Central of Georgia, a roadname I will run occasionally in a 1960's train. That's a unique roadname for otherwise small productions.
- Douglas
nealknows This is nothing new to our hobby or any type of retail. It's the way business changes. Some people are not used to it or don't want to accept it. The internet changed things, as well as hobbies shrinking and not just this one. Factories who sell direct to consumers are trying to save money, pass on some savings to the consumer and of course, make a little more themselves. It's the nature of retail. I've represented many toy and sporting goods manufacturers ove the past 30 years and it happens to the best of them! Let's support the hobby in general, regardless of how some manufacturers decide to operate. As long as the likes of Walthers and Horizon still sell to the dealers, the hobby will go on, maybe a little smaller but still go on. Those big guys will not want to pick low cost parts for hundereds of consumers a day. Ship the orders to the dealers, and the dealers will try to survive. Easy to pick 50 items and put it in one box than put 50 items in 50 boxes. Sorry to be blunt, but it's not going to go back to what it was many years ago... Do I miss those days when a lot of stuff was on the shelves and there were more train shops? Of course! So I will make do the best I can.
This is nothing new to our hobby or any type of retail. It's the way business changes. Some people are not used to it or don't want to accept it. The internet changed things, as well as hobbies shrinking and not just this one. Factories who sell direct to consumers are trying to save money, pass on some savings to the consumer and of course, make a little more themselves. It's the nature of retail. I've represented many toy and sporting goods manufacturers ove the past 30 years and it happens to the best of them!
Let's support the hobby in general, regardless of how some manufacturers decide to operate. As long as the likes of Walthers and Horizon still sell to the dealers, the hobby will go on, maybe a little smaller but still go on. Those big guys will not want to pick low cost parts for hundereds of consumers a day. Ship the orders to the dealers, and the dealers will try to survive. Easy to pick 50 items and put it in one box than put 50 items in 50 boxes.
Sorry to be blunt, but it's not going to go back to what it was many years ago...
Do I miss those days when a lot of stuff was on the shelves and there were more train shops? Of course! So I will make do the best I can.
This is interesting news. I don't order direct from Kadee or get their freight cars from anywhere since I go the pre-used route. With limited finances to purcahse the freight cars, they must be a "gotta have."
Collectors are far from bad people. I get that some prefer having a lot of X, Y, Z. Do they need it? Not my call.
I don't consider buying now to use later as collecting. Everything I have is in boxes right now. I've bought a few locos and kits since I moved. I still don't consider myself a collector just because my stuff sits in boxes for now.
One of the future releases fro Kadee that I'm interested in is the 40' NYC PS1 boxcar. I already have one Kadee RTR, the same car but for the NYS&W with the circle-S herald and the detailing is outstanding. I'm going see about putting in a reservation at my LHS (forty minutes away) first as a way of supporting them before ordering direct from Kadee .
Russ
Modeling the early '50s Erie in Paterson, NJ. Here's the link to my railroad postcard collection: https://railroadpostcards.blogspot.com/
Could this be a good thing for retailers?
AFAIK, KD still sells some of their product through retailers. If a buyer can't pre-buy their product, then perhaps this slightly increases the chance of customers checking their local store or heading to their local store to look if KD is sold out.
This is all speculation of course as I don't know that KD has released any info about their wider distribution plans.
As for "collectors", I'm not one and maybe they grab the car you want before you. However, in railroading, just as in nearly every hobby, they represent a significant and important portion of the buyers and their existance does much to contribute to the critical mass of sales that results in MANY more products and companies being present in the marketplace.
Those models sitting on the shelves (or packed away in boxes..) helped pay for the production of many of the products you are running around your layout.
Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad for Chicago Trainspotting and Budget Model Railroading.
A comment about this apparent evil word - "collectors":
Several have made comments about collecting and collectors as if it is a bad thing or something negative. I'd like to remind them that not everyone collects just to have models sit on the shelves. Rather some have goals and aren't in a position to take models out of boxes and run them. In my case I moved and had to tear down my layout. Because I want a nice environment for a layout, and don't have tons of money to throw at contractors, my wife and I are finishing our basement ourselves, along side a number of other costly house rehab/upgrade projects. So naturally, there is no layout presently. I was an evil collector in prior years due to a number of other mitigating reasons but still had goals. I'm guessing there are quite a few other so called collectors who are in a transition period as well, which can last for years due to divorce, job moving or layoffs, unable to afford a home with space for a time, etc.
Graham Line We've been over this before. My local hobby shop seems to be able to afford 15% off special orders. No money up front. I'm retired, not wealthy, and not inclined to spend $8 shipping to save $6 or $7 on a freight car price. They also have the glue or tool I need from time to time. Getting to the store every other month or so is not a burden. I managed that when the closest store was 150 miles away.
We've been over this before. My local hobby shop seems to be able to afford 15% off special orders. No money up front. I'm retired, not wealthy, and not inclined to spend $8 shipping to save $6 or $7 on a freight car price. They also have the glue or tool I need from time to time. Getting to the store every other month or so is not a burden. I managed that when the closest store was 150 miles away.
We have. What about the rest of us who don't have an LHS? Even if we did, likely they wouldn't have the car I need. So the above is moot for most of us. It's just not practical. I'm much more likely to find the Kadee car I need for a good price on Ebay with a little patience. I go to a train show a couple times a year and hunt for deals there on Kadee or other models, but that's not strictly a hobby shop run, but a trip out with my wife to look at layouts and have lunch etc. and take a break from the every weekend working on house projects like drywall, sanding painting, drop ceiling, laying mulch etc. etc. as part of rehab/upgrade to a formerly bank owned home.
Graham Line They also have the glue or tool I need from time to time. Getting to the store every other month or so is not a burden. I managed that when the closest store was 150 miles away.
So true. I cannot imagine NOT visiting a hobby shop at least once every two weeks or so. Sometimes you just need the atmosphere.
I am lucky to have 5 or 6 hobby shops I visit regularly.
Living the dream.
I have a few Kadee cars. I doon't collect anything, except to then remove it from the box and put on the rails. Mix a couple of kadee cars in a train full of Athearn and Accurail and the whole train looks more detailed. I'm not really concerned how they sell them, I will prooobably still find them through my usual methods, train shows and eBay.
As for preorders - I have yet to preorder anything. And I have yet to not be able to get something I want. Maybe I don;t get it on the day it arrives, but I'm never in that much of a hurry anyway. Either there are a bunch of people who preorder more than they need, or there are a lot of people who get buyer's remorse before they even take the item out of the box, and on eBay it goes. And often at a substantial discount. The whole insistence on instant gratification for everything - I guess I am too old to get it. I'm like that with other things too. I don;t wait in line the night before to get the latest smartphoone, I keep using the one I have until it just doesn;t work well any more, then I walk in a store and walk right out with a current one, no waiting, no disappoooointment as the person in front of me got the last one in stock, etc. Same with cars, I keep driving it until it becomes uneconomical to repair. And I often buy used - my car is now 7 years old but it was optioned just perfectly, no giant LCD screen in the middle of the dash but it DOES have the performance suspension upgrade. Runs great, doesn't cost me more than just normal routine maintenance - and it's a blast to drive, my favorite car I've ever owned, so I plan on keeping it a good long time yet.I have no reason to get rid of it just because it's a few years old.
BigDaddyIf I owned a LHS, I wouldn't be very happy. Kadee will make more money selling directly to the consumer than to me or Model Train Stuff.
Well,here's the thing.. A LHS can not compete with on line prices and why should I pay full MSRP for several cars when I can save some of my hard earned dollars buying from a on line shop or e-Bay?
Sure if there was a full stock shop nearby and I wanted one car that would be the best route because you're not saving all that much after shipping.Bulk orders is where the saving is at and those bulk orders can including many things besides one or two freight cars..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
After thinking about it, I guess I don't have a problem with Kadee using the same approach as Tangent. I get Tangents product availability emails and it gives me a good chance to think through whether I want to splurge or not.
Kadee offeres excellent products in most everything the sell, I'm OK with them making a few bucks doing it.
Well this is a bit of a change, and it has both it's advantages and disadvantages. The only KD car I have is their log caboose kit. It's currently a bit above my time, skill, and tools, so it remains mostly unbuilt. It is a great car, though a bit too common! Regarding KD's ready to run stuff, I really can't afford it right now! $40 a peice is worth it, but I don't have that deap of a pocket. I usually head to the LHS with a single $20 bill! My grandpa has a few KD cars and they are GREAT! Best detail I know of!
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
I agree with Sheldon on this, generally. In order to stay in business, all enterprises have to continually think about what they do, why they do it, and how to improve on all processes and outcomes. Those that don't get left behind....or get broke.
Gone are the days when 4000 of X can sit in boxes and have three or four removed each day to ship to the odd customer. Four years later, they still have 12 boxes, each with 20 of X in them.
I don't mind waiting. You'd think when a man gets to geezer status and wants to maximize hobby time and potential that he'd be impatient, but that's generally not the way it goes. I have lots of patience; there's always something else to do. Too much, if you ask me.
BTW, I waited six years for the BLI Paragon 4-12-2, and about that long for my Sunset 2-10-4. The latter was by subscription with hefty ante up front, and the former was a wait-and-see until it became a go.
Unsold inventory is a Type I error.
mbinsewiI've never bought any of their frieght cars,
BigDaddy If I owned a LHS, I wouldn't be very happy. Kadee will make more money selling directly to the consumer than to me or Model Train Stuff. Maybe they will continue to sell to both, and the frugal buyer will look to the online retailers.
If I owned a LHS, I wouldn't be very happy. Kadee will make more money selling directly to the consumer than to me or Model Train Stuff.
Maybe they will continue to sell to both, and the frugal buyer will look to the online retailers.
Not necessarily. As customers continue to demand lower prices and better products, margins get slim. Selling direct may be the only thing that keeps this hobby going.
We have already cut out most of the middle men distributors. That's is where the typical discounts available today come from, that was once the distributor markup.
If you think for one minute that there is so much profit in these products that they can sell through a normal distribution network and still discount this stuff like TrainWorld or ModelTrainStuff does, you're kidding yourself.
They can sell at those prices because they are buying direct from the manufacturer at the distributor price. Small shops can't get that price on their smaller orders.
When companies sell direct they have a much higher cost per sale per item - they need to make more than when they sell cases to ModelTrainStuff.
Tangent only sells direct. Their prices would easily be 20-30% more if they sold thru dealers.
They are giving you most of the dealer markup, they are not being greedy.
Sheldon
For years I only bought a single D&RGW cement hopper as the Kadee version matches the D&RGW prototype. But I have now backdated and have picked up some box cars that are good for the 70's to mix in.
Kadee freight cars are mostly good for 50's and 60's era modelers although they do have a few with single, double and 3 panels stencils too (70's and 80's).
I've never bought any of their frieght cars, but I do buy my share of couplers, and the web site has definitely changed.
Mike.
My You Tube
BigDaddy If I owned a LHS, I wouldn't be very happy. Kadee will make more money selling directly to the consumer than to me or Model Train Stuff.
That seems to be the trend over the past 10 years, selling direct.
I'm resisting posting my Capt Kirk meme for one of our posters.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley