Doughless Isn't the old LL Proto GP series (Athearn cloned drive) motor the same motor as Athearn BB? I would repower coffee grinder GP38-2 BBs with old LL GP18 motors and they would be noticeably quieter. Haven't done that in a while, but I remember they used the same rubber mounts so it was an easy switch and they are basically the same motor.
Isn't the old LL Proto GP series (Athearn cloned drive) motor the same motor as Athearn BB?
I would repower coffee grinder GP38-2 BBs with old LL GP18 motors and they would be noticeably quieter. Haven't done that in a while, but I remember they used the same rubber mounts so it was an easy switch and they are basically the same motor.
Same as in made in the same factory? No. Same as in made from the same design? Yes.
Until moving production to China many years later, Athearn was all made here. They did not sell parts to LifeLike. LifeLike copied the drive/motor and manufactured it in China.
Sheldon
SPSOT fan Snippage I have little experience with comparing the motors of different quality levels, but from what I have seen I think modern locos of the mid or high levels both have good, quiet motors. Lower, train set stuff does not, but that's usually alot cheaper!
I have little experience with comparing the motors of different quality levels, but from what I have seen I think modern locos of the mid or high levels both have good, quiet motors. Lower, train set stuff does not, but that's usually alot cheaper!
DoughlessIsn't the old LL Proto GP series (Athearn cloned drive) motor the same motor as Athearn BB?
I believe so, I think at one time they may have just gotten the motors and everything from Athearn, similar to early Bowser engines.
BTW I don't think DCC or which decoder a company used had anything to do with which motor they used in their engines - except for things you noted like a place for a speaker (such as converting the fuel tank under the motor to a a speaker enclosure) and adding a DCC-receptacle to the lightboard. I think Bowser changed from Athearn open-frame motors to can motors (IIRC from Roco then Kato?) because the can motors were better. Plus I don't think they had different drives or motors in different engines, though it might seem that way because their earlier diesels like the AS-16s origally had the Athearn motors, whereas by the time later engines began to be produced they had already switched to can motors, so comparing two engines might show them having different motors.
- Douglas
OldEngineman,It was an Athearn RTR GP40X. It was loud and growly, more so than usual for an Athearn.
First thing I did was check the gears. One plastic worm had a burr on it. I filed this off, lubed the gears and reassembled.
Then I took out all four motor mounting screws and put the engine on the track up against a bumper. I then ran it at full speed against it.
As it ran, I gently but firmly twisted the ends of the Athearn motor, moving side to side, up and down, etc. while listening. When the RPM's picked up, I knew I was getting better. With enough messing around, I found a "sweet spot" where the RPM's increased to their highest point and the motor noise decreased to can motor-like levels.
I slowly brought the motor to a stop. Then I mixed up some 5 min. epoxy and liberally applied it where the black plastic motor ends meet the brass colored motor casing. After letting it set for several hours, I then gently tightened two of the motor screws and left the other two loose.
I put the whole thing back together and I was pleasently surprised at how quiet and smooth it was.
wjstix Doughless I think going back 10 to 20 years the manufacturers would use different drives depending upon the model. I would say that each manufacturer now uses the same drive line for all of their different series of models, with the exception of Athearn. Using the same drive across the lines is more common now, but it's only been in the last few years. I think Walthers for example had ads promoting the upgrade to the lower priced engines just a couple of years ago. Just to muddy the waters, when Stewart started (before being taken over by Bowser) their diesels like the AS-16 used Athearn drives and motors. (Think Life-Like might have at one time too...the interior of that old GN GP in Cody Grivno's recent MR article about changing wheelsets sure looks like an Athearn set-up.)
Doughless I think going back 10 to 20 years the manufacturers would use different drives depending upon the model. I would say that each manufacturer now uses the same drive line for all of their different series of models, with the exception of Athearn.
Using the same drive across the lines is more common now, but it's only been in the last few years. I think Walthers for example had ads promoting the upgrade to the lower priced engines just a couple of years ago.
Just to muddy the waters, when Stewart started (before being taken over by Bowser) their diesels like the AS-16 used Athearn drives and motors. (Think Life-Like might have at one time too...the interior of that old GN GP in Cody Grivno's recent MR article about changing wheelsets sure looks like an Athearn set-up.)
Yes, Stewart was a company that had different drives depending upon the model. I'm less familiar with them, Bowser, and intermountain.
I think Walthers probably changed to their set drive when they went from QSI to Tsunami sound and Atlas probably changed their motor when they reconfigured their weights when they went from QSI to ESU. QSI used to have those relatively large dual speakers.
I assume with the emergence of onboard sound and the need for a speaker producers have to keep the configuration of the innards fairly consistent from run to run.
DoughlessI think going back 10 to 20 years the manufacturers would use different drives depending upon the model. I would say that each manufacturer now uses the same drive line for all of their different series of models, with the exception of Athearn.
This is an interesting topic! Thanks for starting since I was under the impression that locos from the same manufacturer are the same across the same offering. Apparently not. Perhaps this is why my Athearn SD40 runs a bit differently than the SD45.
Here I was thinking that the difference in price among the lines is based mainly on the detail of the shell and wiring within.
Learn something new!
I think going back 10 to 20 years the manufacturers would use different drives depending upon the model. I would say that each manufacturer now uses the same drive line for all of their different series of models, with the exception of Athearn.
Atlas Gold/Silver and Trainman use the same drives. Walthers Mainline and Proto use the same drives, except maybe the long-in-tooth chopped nosed GP9M.
I would say all of those drives are similar to Athearn Genesis, all good quality compared to older vintages, with RTR still using the original BB based motor.
Having said that, Atlas used to use Kato type motors in all of their drives in the 1990 to 2010 vintages. Now they've switched to a silver colored motor that I think is not quite as good.
If anybdy has more info on that motor, please share.
Just a quick background note...around 30 years ago, some of the major model railroad manufacturers decided to upgrade the quality of their products, and many decided to create a new 'line' of products to separate the new higher-end products from their previous products. I think Bachmann was the first with their Spectrum line, followed by Life-Like with Proto 2000 and later a sort of in-between (not as good as Proto 2000, but better than their earlier 'train set grade' products) called Proto 1000. Athearn created the Genesis line, with F-units using the body shells originally made by Highlander as replacement parts for Athearn bluebox F-units.
Atlas went the other way, and made their new line a less-detailed line called Trainman (but using the same motor and other drive parts of their regular line). They later split their regular line a couple of ways, gold for sound equipped and silver for DC/silent, and the Classic line for renewed versions of their older engines and the Master line for newer products.
Walthers eventually bought Life-Like's train line, and continue to use the Proto name for their top-line train gear. BTW Walthers is a good example of how it can sometimes be hard to keep track of products in model railroading, as over the years they have bought out several manufacturers (Magnuson, Life-Like, Train Miniature) and brought out their products under the Walthers name.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL shim the worm gears
.
Taking the end play out of the worm gear is the most important part. I try to get mine in the 0.005" - 0.010" end play range.
Installing a can motor is easy. I do not get too fancy with the mount, and just use PSI's plastic epoxy paste to hold it in place. At Home Depot, they sell the Loktite version of this product.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
OldEngineman Paul3 wrote: "Athearn RTR drives can be made to be as good as a Genesis; I've done it myself" Can you point us towards a tutorial that explains how to do this and lists what parts are needed?
Paul3 wrote: "Athearn RTR drives can be made to be as good as a Genesis; I've done it myself"
Can you point us towards a tutorial that explains how to do this and lists what parts are needed?
Buy one of several can motor conversion kits, shim the worm gears, solder pickup wires to the truck frame, check all the gears for flash.
Pretty good chance that will make it run real good........
SPSOT fanYes, I was comparing them generally, though I think a few manufacturer do that! I far as I can tell the only difference between Rivet Counter and Operator lines is Operator doesn't have all the seperately applied parts installed,
Oh. This thread is about drive lines so I guess that caused the confusion.
SeeYou190 I understand that ScaleTrains Operator and Rivet Counter lines share the same drive and mechanicals.
I understand that ScaleTrains Operator and Rivet Counter lines share the same drive and mechanicals.
Yes, I was comparing them generally, though I think a few manufacturer do that! I far as I can tell the only difference between Rivet Counter and Operator lines is Operator doesn't have all the seperately applied parts installed, you have to get a seperate sale detail kit to get them up the Rivet Counter standards.
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
SPSOT fanMedium/Budget, i.e. ScaleTrains Operator. And High Quality, i.e. ScaleTrains RivetCounter
Don't quote me on anything, but I recall Athearn advertising their Ready to Rolls as have the same drives as Genesises, though I may be thinking about WathersProtos and WalthersMainlines.
Generally there are three quality levels as I see model railroading:
I often notice each manufacturers version of a certain level of quality is not exactly equivalent. An Athearn RTR has alot of great detail while a WalthersMainline often just has a seperate detail kit. There are also manufacturers that only do high level stuff, i.e. Rapido or Bowser.
There are other variables not accounted for here.
Example, within one product line that is supposed to be "equal" there may be different designs - using the pre Walthers Proto as an example:
All the 4 axle road diesels in the original line, FA1/2, a long list of GP's, BL2, all shared the same drive, a clone of the Athearn "RTR" drive, with slightly better tollerances and better motors - except for cracked gears, they all run the same, and generally rather well.
But the other models in the early Proto days shared very few of those parts and were not copies of anything Athearn did. The PA1 and the SD units are similar to each other, but not the same, and the E units, E6, E7, E8/9 are a completely seperate drive all of which could be said to run better than the 4 axle units, if only by a slight margin.
The basic problem here is all these products evolve from their original designs, get retooled, change hands and are offered by new suppliers, and now with China production, often move from factory to factory.
I have long said that each model, each retooled version, needs to be judged on it own merrits. They cannot be judged by what "series" of product the manufacture decides is his best marketing choice at the time, they cannot be judged by brand name, they cannot even be judged by cost.
When Life Like offered the Proto1000 models, a line of product that did not duplicate any models offered in the Proto2000 line, they had way less detail, and drives that were different from the Proto2000 line, yet they run every bit as well in most cases. It had more to do with who built them for LifeLike, and what tooling might have already been partly in place at that factory, etc.
Seems that these days, all but the cheapest train set diesels run pretty well and are reasonably reliable.
More thoughts on another brand - Bachmann - they make a wide range of products, some are/have been exceptional, others not so much. Some are aimed at beginners or train sets, some are aimed at the most serious of modelers. The above facts are largely ignored by those who have had one bad experiance not realizing that Bachmann makes lots of different "quality/detail/price level" products.
Bachmann diesels, the new retooled ones, run very well, and while still on the lower end detail wise, have moved up quite a bit.
Steam is a different story, but the brands offering steam are much more limited, and the selection has actually declined in the last 15 years.
And some degree of product problem seems to effect all the brands of steam. I have had the best luck with the brand everyone bashes - Bachmann - and the worst luck with Broadway.....
And my specific list of winners and loosers, steam or diesel will be dramaticly different from other peoples list, becuase I only buy prototypes built before 1954.
So I don't have any more modern diesels to have any experiance with their drives.
My only Athearn locos are Genesis or rebuilt Blue Box F units and ex MDC RS units.
I have no Atlas locos, since they make so few early diesels and those are hard to find/expensive.
I have tons of early PROTO2000 - love them all, and a selection of Proto steam.
My only Walthers locos are one set of first run PROTO2000 F units.
I have lots of Intermountain F units.
I have lots of Bachmann/Spectrum steam, selective Bachmann diesels, GE44, GE70, doodlebugs.
I have a little Broadway steam - no diesels, I think they skimp on detail for the prices.......
I'm happy with all my locos........
Paul3 Ok, the Athearn RTR's generally use the same "JET" open frame motor from years ago. The quality of this motor varies because the tolerances are so loose. It makes them easy to assemble but they tend to be noisy unless you either get lucky or manage to align them so they are perfect. Athearn Genesis engines use can motors that are far more precise and are usually balanced right out of the factory. Unbalanced motors give off vibration which equals noise, so a well balanced engine is better.The other major point is that Athearn RTR trucks have sloppy gear boxes and styrene gears. Again, they have loose tolerances which makes manufacture and assembly less expensive but that usually equals more noise. And styrene gears can shrink and not be 100% round right out of the mold. That also can bring noise to the drive. It's not that Athearn RTR drives cannot be as quiet and smooth as a Genesis drive, but the odds are against it. Athearn RTR drives can be made to be as good as a Genesis; I've done it myself (and no one was more surprised). And Genesis drives can be noisy out of the box; I've seen it happen. But the likelyhood of having a bad Genesis drive is about the same odds of getting a perfect Athearn RTR drive. With Walthers Trainline vs. Proto, I don't have any experience with Trainline. But the Walthers Mainline and Proto line is usually great out of the box. The older Life-Like Protos had some issues with different gear ratios and lubricant that isn't, plus cracked gears, etc. Walthers Mainline and Proto line doesn't have those problems.All Atlas lines have the same quality drive.
Ok, the Athearn RTR's generally use the same "JET" open frame motor from years ago. The quality of this motor varies because the tolerances are so loose. It makes them easy to assemble but they tend to be noisy unless you either get lucky or manage to align them so they are perfect.
Athearn Genesis engines use can motors that are far more precise and are usually balanced right out of the factory. Unbalanced motors give off vibration which equals noise, so a well balanced engine is better.The other major point is that Athearn RTR trucks have sloppy gear boxes and styrene gears. Again, they have loose tolerances which makes manufacture and assembly less expensive but that usually equals more noise. And styrene gears can shrink and not be 100% round right out of the mold. That also can bring noise to the drive.
It's not that Athearn RTR drives cannot be as quiet and smooth as a Genesis drive, but the odds are against it. Athearn RTR drives can be made to be as good as a Genesis; I've done it myself (and no one was more surprised). And Genesis drives can be noisy out of the box; I've seen it happen. But the likelyhood of having a bad Genesis drive is about the same odds of getting a perfect Athearn RTR drive.
With Walthers Trainline vs. Proto, I don't have any experience with Trainline. But the Walthers Mainline and Proto line is usually great out of the box. The older Life-Like Protos had some issues with different gear ratios and lubricant that isn't, plus cracked gears, etc. Walthers Mainline and Proto line doesn't have those problems.All Atlas lines have the same quality drive.
Paul, thanks. Exactly the insight I was seeking. I thought that perhaps as newer Athearn RTR were showing much more detail (such as hoses) that perhaps they had standardized the drives between the better and lesser lines.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
Athearn sellls kits including Genesis motors to upgrade their Ready-To-Roll locomotives, so maybe there is a difference.
This is a rather large question that would take tons of research to answer.
I can say one thing for sure, My Walthers Proto FAs run a whole lot better than my Walthers Trainline FAs. There must be a drive line difference from one to another.
I will let people that know a lot more than me answer the rest.
In a thread about dummy units, nfmisso said that unpowered Intermountain units were only $30 cheaper, meaning the manufacturers cost was only about $5 ea for motor and drivetrain.
I would guess it is probably cheaper to standardize on one motor and drive train across the entire production line than to engineer something that costs a buck less.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/160725/3147171.aspx#3147171
If you are buying new, is it really cheaper now to add your own sound decoder and speaker?
According to MTS the Walthers F7 (Alaska) MSRP is $70 more for DCC with loksound and their price is only $13 more than the DC flavor
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I imagine this has been covered but did not find the answer readily. I usually buy DC locos and convert to DCC w/sound. I wonder if there are drive train quality differences in current offerings, but different quality lines, by manufacturers which I would want to consider. The detail differences I can more readily discern.
So, can anyone clarify whether there are drive train differences (from same manufacturer) in current time frame releases such as:
a) Athearn Ready-T0-Roll vs. Genesis?
b) Walthers Trainline vs. Proto?
c) Others; e.g., Atlas, etc
I notice that detail level of "baseline" locos may be improving (such as Athearn RTR) so I should likely be considering them more than I have.
Thanks for any clarification.