I don't know about that. There's people on another forum taking Rapido to task for making a business decision not to do a specific pilot step variation.
And quite honestly, the late blue box Overland diesels (which have dual mode decoders) outrun anything I've tried in plastic, and even start running at a lower voltage in plain dc. I have been pleasantly surprised at how good they run.
I think a big factor in the declining interest in brass is simply that the necessity for brass engines isn't really there like it was in the past. Back in the 1970's-80's, the majority of model railroaders were old enough to remember steam, and most model railroads were set in the steam era. The only way to get accurate steam engines for a particular railroad was to buy brass.
Today, many more model railroaders only know diesels, and companies like Atlas, Athearn Genesis, Bowser, BLI and others are making plastic diesels that are detailed for specific railroads to a degree that in the past only brass could be - and often run much better than brass - but at a fraction of the price of brass.
Ever go to a general collectible/antique show? Usually in the front there are racks of periodicals of things now popular to collect. Everyone on this planet, even those who expouse four letter words waiting for train to pass at a crossing has some sort of an affinity for railroads.....many with with great likings and interest, but have no knowledge of how enjoyable collecting model trains could be...especially well made trains....not plastic models in huge runs.
One major reason with brass prices plummeting is ignorance. Newbies in the hobby cannot relate to them as rarely today does anything ever appear in the MR press. Still importers continue to market their brass models in a field now filled with operation and price oriented folks. Years back Bob Hunter, Roy Brakmann, and myself were going to become importers. We spent over a year doing research on four never done models to be built by Samhongsa with really great details and to come in beautiful finished wood presentation boxes complete with parts, operation, and history of prototypes literature. Roy passed away just prior to releasing funds, and Hunter became ill eventually passing away a few years later. I chose not to continue alone, as these two partners cound not be replaced. Our plans were of course to offer models to MR community, but we had planned on showing at the many fine collectible shows including Atlantic City....and even Barrett Jackson, albiet the huge cost outlay for selling/display space. If this would have worked I'd need a long stick with a donkey skull on one end to predict this, but my guess would be quite positive...even more so today. Now at age 81, I'm slowing down quite a bit although I'll be atteding the new Brass Expo next week.
Kevin--
Ha ha...
If it was a model I needed to have, I'd buy it with the custom, or fictitious road, paint job, as long as it was a decent paint finish. The private roadname is not necessarily a turn off. Above I was referring more to the quality of the final finish...
If you look for example at The Caboose's typical model descriptions:
CP OB G (custom painted original box good) can have a lot of leeway.
My brass collecting buddies invented additional facetious categories based on some of the horrible paint jobs we used to see (that needed stripped). Instead of OB, we would sometimes say OD, for owner dipped, must be stripped. lol
At The Caboose, OP really means Owner Painted ie not necessarily that good. If they list a model as CP, custom painted, that more typically means they think somebody did a pretty good job on it, and it shouldn't require stripping and repainting.
My 2c.
John
PRR8259Most custom paint jobs on brass do not add value to the model's selling price.
.
I destroy the value of all my brass models, like this Overland PENNSYLVANIA covered hopper that I painted for the DIAMONDBACK AND WESTERN.
I bought it to run it.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Also--unpainted brass models are generally plummetting in value.
Why?
Simply stated, the generation of quality painters of these models in the U.S. has left the scene. Bob Hunter actually was part of the Southern steam excursion program, knew how the steamers operated, how they got dirty, and he could do fantastic, realistic painting and weathering. There are other fine painters, likewise no longer with us. Brasstrains has a few experts who still do this work, but I'm sure none of them are cheap, and their models command a premium, especially the passenger cars with full interiors and lighting.
Many people will paint brass models for a fee, but only a handful--and I mean literally a handful of people in the U.S.--can do a quality paint and decal job, and reassemble the model so it will run well, such that by painting the model value has actually been added.
Most custom paint jobs on brass do not add value to the model's selling price. They just do not.
Factory painted models are generally preferred.
I have one diesel out for pro paint now. The painting and lighting will cost me $500 plus the decals for it. The work will be nearly museum quality, by David Long of Bozeman, MT, but I will have more money in that model than it will be worth.
I'm getting the model I want in the paint and lettering I want.
Maybe there are other painters out there that I've not met, but I judge the work by models I've seen in person or photos available online, and I'm sorry to say, few can match the paint quality of the latter Samhongsa or Ajin Precision or Boo Rim factory paint jobs.
PRR8259Buy the model because you like it, want to run it
So true.
I justy bought an 8,000 gallon pressurized insulated tank car with a platform from Brasstrains.
It is an interesting and unique model that I am going to paint and run. I bought it for no other reason.
Brass trains as an investment? I'm going with NO generally speaking.
I owned a painted Westside SP 4-10-2 nearly 25 years ago at $300. I can buy one on Ebay, unpainted, now, for $325, but Brasstrains.com says it is only worth $250...
Only the very rarest, newest (or last runs) of a given brass model, that are truly of exceptional workmanship or rarity, steadily increase in value. Those models are difficult to locate on any consistent basis because they are truly rare. Also, the market on the high end brass is very fickle: One model may currently sell for $1500, but just a slightly different version of the same model, made at the same time, may have now appreciated to $3000. To the untrained or less experienced collector, there may be very little visual difference between the two. One just, according to the values on Brasstrains.com, must be more highly sought after. That's all it takes.
Buy the model because you like it, want to run it, or because you personally consider it to be fine art. A few will appreciate. Most, not so much because the generation who bought them is dying off without suitable replacements.
Brass diesels, particularly, are a bad purchase. Even more so if unpainted. Some have dropped in value just in the last 6 months as generally "better" (in the eyes of many would-be buyers today) plastic versions of the same model have been released. I personally have a couple high end, rare brass diesels that are just not selling, period. I'm going to lose money on them.
Respectfully,
John Mock
doctorwaynenone were bought as investments in the monetary sense of the word
None of mine are investments either. They were all puchased with the intent of me running them on my layout, repainting them for my railroad, and ruining all the value anyway.
I have never purchased a brass locmotive that did not have a place on my roster. It is actually good for me that the prices continue to fall.
I own only four brass locomotives, and none were bought as investments in the monetary sense of the word.
However, I did consider them investments in improving my skills, and in modifying them to match photos of specific prototypes at specific periods of their existence, rather than leaving them as a generic example of their particular class. Learning to make them better runners was also a gain.While I may consider those changes to be improvements, I don't especially care if their next owner feels the same way, nor do I care if my original monetary outlay shows a gain or a loss, as I'll not be around. To have had the experience and enjoyment of working on them and running them is a pay-off not measureable in dollars.
Wayne
SeeYou190 I have my collection registered on the Brasstrains web site. . According to their calculator I have lost $1,000.00 in value in the last six months. . As an investment, I would say no. As an awesome way to enjoy the hobby, I woudl say yes. . -Kevin .
I have my collection registered on the Brasstrains web site.
According to their calculator I have lost $1,000.00 in value in the last six months.
As an investment, I would say no. As an awesome way to enjoy the hobby, I woudl say yes.
sold it to a guy in PA & it got stolen off his porch
It is the rare pieces that garner the most return or cost the most outright. Someone mentioned those PRR flatcars, yes those will go high because of the rarity.
If more than one importer did a certain model that dilutes the market (like multiple Big Boys recently) as opposed to models not done. I had an ALCO MODELS P&LE A-2, that increased in value to what I paid for it because the newest one from Glacier Park Models was 2500.00 so mine was a "good value buy".
There's was a time not long ago that people were investing in Lionel Trains and were making returns on that investment. Like anything, the less there is of something, the more valuable it becomes.
riogrande5761And then there are HO Rio Grande brass shop built brass cabooses.
You can add Pennsylvania Railroad flat cars to that list of brass cars that someone is willing to pay dearly for.
I have been watching for years for a pair of tiny, little F22 "gun flats" so I can simulate a loaded 16" naval gun load. They seem to garner the $200 range.
Get into a "Queen Mary" FW-1 or FD-2 or other "multi-bolster" specialty flat and you're looking at $600 to $800! Too rich for my wallet.
I've only paid retail, and discounted at that, for a very few pieces of brass. All the rest I got at what I would consider bargain-basement prices.
Regards, Ed
Back on topic.
And then there are HO Rio Grande brass shop built brass cabooses. I'd like more than the six I gave but they sell for quite a bit. The last new Division Point cabooses I bought were Factory painted and $220 each. I just watched an Overland painted caboose go for $440 on fleabay. I saw another go for even more a couple months ago. Nuts!
So it depends.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
wjstixIt goes back farther than that, I belive one of the first Marx Brothers movies from 1929 or 1930 references it.
That would really surprise me.
According to my copy of "Lies That Came True", Cape Coral did not exist officially until 1957. Leo and Jack Rosen founded the city. Prior to that, some of the area had been sold by another developer under very shady circumstances, but I do not know much about that. It was not called Cape Coral until the 1950s. There might have been a previous development with the same name.
Prior to Cape Coral, there were several other planned communities in Florida that sold land to northerners as you described. A lot of these communities still exist on GPS maps, but when you drive to them there is barely even a sign of roadways.
When I was in High School we would drive to these failed communities and party/drag race/camp/hang out/whatever. Now nature has taken them back.
A couple of the failed communities have been absorbed by Cape Coral as it grows.
This was way too far off topic. I barely live in Cape Coral. I can literally throw a rock from my backyard and clear the city limits.
SeeYou190 Cape Coral, Florida, where I live, was almost all wetlands when it was purchased and developed in the 1940's and 1950's. Supposedly that is where a lot of the "Swamp land in Florida" legends come from.
It goes back farther than that, I belive one of the first Marx Brothers movies from 1929 or 1930 references it. In the early 1920's there was a boom in real estate development in Florida, in part due to railroads reaching southern Florida. Although the development was productive, expanding or even creating new communities, eventually some shady land speculators began selling Florida lots sight-unseen to northerners anxious to get in on the boom. When the people got there, they found the land they'd purchased was largely undeveloped swamps (as wetlands were called back then) and virtually worthless - at least at the time.
Doughless I think that if collectibles are to be considered investments, there has to be a group of people who are interested in buying what you have several years down the road. Unfortunately, with many things once collectible, I think people who want brass are departing this earth. A ever diminishing pool of buyers. Same goes for Elvis memorabilia. Beatles. Some day, the popular question will be, "who are they?" Maybe even the same thing with 1960's era muscle cars. Who will be around to remember when those cars were popular? Stuff doesn't remain collectible forever. At least not at ever-increasing prices.
I think that if collectibles are to be considered investments, there has to be a group of people who are interested in buying what you have several years down the road.
Unfortunately, with many things once collectible, I think people who want brass are departing this earth. A ever diminishing pool of buyers.
Same goes for Elvis memorabilia. Beatles. Some day, the popular question will be, "who are they?"
Maybe even the same thing with 1960's era muscle cars. Who will be around to remember when those cars were popular?
Stuff doesn't remain collectible forever. At least not at ever-increasing prices.
I rode behind her during her days in Logansport, and in the cab on one trip. I was a young boy then. I can just barely remember it. But I have pictures and some of the tickets from riding the train at the Iron Horse Festival in Logansport, Indiana. I miss those days. The town/line has had a standing offer from AOS to buy back the 13 whenever they want, but the local politicians want nothing to do with a train anymore, despite trying to have a festival centered around the towns railroading history. Its a shame, the train is what made that festival great, it was packed with people back then. I have one of the souvineer coaches, you can just see it behind the tender. I hope to find a few more. Correct coaches are only done in brass and a bit hard to find, someday maybe. There are a couple details that are off on my model vs the real 13, I havent found a pilot that is correct yet and she lacks the open space were the second cross compound air pump used to be. Other than that, she looks really close. And yes, even in C&O form, the G9 is a nice size Connie. Mike the Aspie
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
riogrande5761Got some swamp land in Flordia to sell, just talk to Disney!
The land that Walt Disney World Resort outside of Orlando resides upon was not paid highly for. Walt Disney was very careful during the purchase process not to let people know it was him buying up all that land.
He paid reasonable prices for the real estate.
Almost all the land he purchased was already developed as orange groves. The only wetlands in the purchases were what was already included in the tracts as divided. There were a few undeveloped parcels that were purchased in order to provide as much open space around the park as possible. These were not swamp land.
Nearly all the land he purchased was already for sale when he started buying it all. There was no premium paid for swamp land or anything like that. He did need to make a few "really good offers" to get some productive tracts of land that were not already on the market.
Cape Coral, Florida, where I live, was almost all wetlands when it was purchased and developed in the 1940's and 1950's. Supposedly that is where a lot of the "Swamp land in Florida" legends come from.
Hey, all you need is the right buyer. Got some swamp land in Flordia to sell, just talk to Disney!
emdmikeBrakie, the C&O G9 holds its price as its only been done by Overland Models, in 2 runs, early run by Rok Am and later run by Ajin.
Mike,Thanks for that information. I always like the look of the G9 and your sweet looking model tells why.
BC&G #13 now resides at the Age of Steam Roundhouse at Morgan Run,Oh. I had the pleasure seeing the 13 under steam and rode behind her when she was pulling OCs tourist train back in the mid 90s..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Neat engine! Interesting...
Brakie, the C&O G9 holds its price as its only been done by Overland Models, in 2 runs, early run by Rok Am and later run by Ajin. I have the early run as it was the closest to the Buffalo Creek and Gually engine that was used by the Logansport & Eel River RR in the 1980s for fan trips once a year. It was gussied up to resemble a PRR H10 during that time and I have modified mine accordingly. Even though Rok Am isnt thought of as a "good" builder. Mine has ran smooth and quiet after a total relubrication of the gear box and bearings. The BLI non brass model is close but lacks the odd driver spacing of the prototype amoung other issues. Mike the Aspie.
Taken on my old mini layout
emdmike--
Nice model! Looks like truly pristine mint condition!
To sort of turn the question around and look at it from another angle...brass locomotives, cars, and structures (along with hardcover railroad books) historically have done the best as far as holding more of their value over the years. That doesn't mean they're necessarily becoming more valuable, since the market for both have declined in recent years, but they do generally have at least some re-sale value.
Unfortunately, most other things related to model railroading, like non-brass engines and cars, structures, track etc. end being worth little to nothing eventually.
Well said John. Besides the better quality, to me atleast, I really enjoy that my engines are all hand made, one at a time. I appreciate this type of "art" be them painted or unpainted. These ladies and gentlemen, first in Japan, then in South Korea and now even China are real artists. For those interested, Jeff Lemke has a nice behinds the scenes story of how brass trains are made over in Korea on his website. Lots of great pictures, and while the company isnt named, I do believe its Ajin Precision. Who made all those great Overland Models, along with a few for others like Hallmark. And yes, when it comes down to it, these are just toys, abliet very expensive ones. Proving again, the differance between men and boys are the price of our toys. And for your enjoyment, here is my Overand Models ex CB&Q/BN EMD GP20 Mike the Aspie
There are a few recent, low production and high quality brass models that actually are appreciating, at least according to the www.brasstrains.com pricing trends. Compared to all the brass models that have been produced, the number is a rather small minority.
So Howard is right: if you buy brass, buy it because you like it, need the item to fill a vacant roster slot, or just prefer the "art" of the models themselves. Any profit is generally a happy accident if you actually run and play with any of them, as I do.
I love the models themselves and I like the way they run.
As I have quality control concerns with some of the plastic diesels available today, when I find a good Overland Models/Ajin diesel in my particular roadname, at a price I can live with, I'm buying it. I just received one yesterday, an OMI BNSF pumpkin GP60M. It was a reasonably priced "bargain" as compared to other OMI BNSF engines that are bigger models and can sell for twice as much. I was thrilled to get such a nice example.
SeeYou190 cv_acr Buy it because you want it yourself, not with any plan to necessarily retain any real value. . The same is true for art. I own several large original oil paintings, and I will never care what they are worth. They are meaningful and glorious for me, and they will never be sold. I bought only what I wanted. . -Kevin .
cv_acr Buy it because you want it yourself, not with any plan to necessarily retain any real value.
The same is true for art. I own several large original oil paintings, and I will never care what they are worth. They are meaningful and glorious for me, and they will never be sold. I bought only what I wanted.
My late uncle, an Austrian Jew by birth, was a life-long lover of 16th century Dutch Masters art, and invested heavily. You are correct, he loved his paintings, and could give PhD-level disserations on many artists from that era. I don't know what he paid for any of them, some of them were in the millions, but I can tell you that, in the smallish community that could play at that level, those paintings WERE investments. To my knowledge, their value grew at least as fast as real-estate in most markets.
Our scale trains are toys. If you watch American Pickers, the most collectible toys were the Marx brand, some of them very dear indeed. I think a few carefully chosen brass items could hold their value and even grow some, but the salient fact is...they're toys.