Hi,
I'm debating on whether or not to get a Life Like(not Walthers) era Proto 2000 GP9 (blue box, engine shell and chassis separated).
How well do they run? (in terms of quietness and smoothness)
If an Athearn old blue box engine ran a 1 and an Athearn new genesis engine ran a 10, where would Life like Proto 2000 stand?
Also, how do their gp9s overall? Are they comparable to Athearn Genesis GP9s?
Thanks!
Charles
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
Instagram (where I share projects!): https://www.instagram.com/trainman440
I have an ABBA set of Proto 2000 Alco FA units. They look good and run good. Quieter than my Athearn bluebox F units. I don't have any Proto 2000 GP7 or GP9 models, but Proto 2000 has a good rep and I would expect their GP's to be very decent runners.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Charles,
I have both steam and diesel locomotives in the "Pre-Walthers" Proto 2000 line and they all run smooth and quiet. Some of the early LL's had split gear issues but it is easily (and inexpensively) remedied with replacement gears from Athearn. None of mine ever had that issue.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I have a P2K GP7, older model, and it runs as quiet as you can get, fairly smooth too, not as good as Atlas, but pretty good. Beware of cracked gears. I haven't heard of an older P2K without this problem. Mine had all four gears cracked, but fixing them was a sinch, and I consider myself a Beginner intermediate. It now runs great on my DC layout, and has run good on the DCC club layout too(with temporary Digitax economy decoder).
Harrison
Homeschooler living In upstate NY a.k.a Northern NY.
Modeling the D&H in 1978.
Route of the famous "Montreal Limited"
My YouTube
Because LifeLike had been known for rather low end scenery materials and trains sets, those first Proto2000 releases (I think the E7 or E8 was the first) were revelations at the time. Nice detail and paint schemes, smooth and quiet drive trains, and the price seemed right for the quality.
More engines were released. It was clear that the manufacturer was closely copying Athearn drive trains to the point where parts were interchangeable.
Then problems occured with the early releases. The gears started to crack on the axles leading to noisy clicking as engines ran and there was a "hitch in the git-along." LifeLike offered free replacement wheels for affected engines (and some guys just used Athearn parts which dropped right in). Even after Walthers acquired LifeLike they'd replace defective wheels for free - until finally so much time went by that any defective P2K locomotive had obviously been released and sold long long ago.
And another problem arose. If the engine was sitting without being used and run, the lubricant initially used on Proto2000 engines turned into gunk and then, almost rock like. The trucks had to be opened up, the old lubricant removed and replaced.
If you have an older Proto2000 diesel and it does not run DO NOT TURN UP THE "JUICE" and try to bully it into running. The gunky lubricant won't budge and you could burn out a motor.
So depending on when the engine you are looking at was issued, it MIGHT have the clicking gear problem, the gunked lubricant problem, or both. Or maybe a prior owner took care of it, or both.
Even thought Walthers no longer gives away free replacement wheels, from time to time they import and sell replacements for those that need them. I just checked and they have them in stock (and for sale!)
920-584494 wheel/gear sets are for early LifeLike Proto2000 E units (E6 through E9). 920-584408 are for early LifeLike Proto2000 GP 7, GP 9, GP 30, GP 18, GP 20, GP 60, and the BL2 and Alco FA as well as the Proto1000 (same good drive train but less detail) F3, RS2 and RSC2.
So ... all is not lost even if you have an early Proto2000 diesel with gear crack.
Dave Nelson
I’d say get it if the price is good (it likely will be)!
P2Ks have one proble, the gears tend to crack. The problem is consistate, by which I mean your loco will likely have one. They are, however, very easy to fix with athearn gears, and the issue is so common that there is plenty of material on how to do it.
Once the cracked gears are fixed, they should run fine. I’d say about 7/10 compared to newer stuff, but for the time great. Second only to Atlas/Katis for the time.
Also P2K was miles ahead of other period manufacturers in terms of detail. On P2K geeps you will find prototype and road number specific detail in terms of dynamic breaks, steam generators, etc, in my experience correct for each road number.
Also P2Ks strip paint easily with chemical paint stripper, at least from what I’ve heard, no sand blaster needed.
Now if you can afford an Athearn Genesis geep, get it over a P2K, because the Athearns are the VERY BEST gets on the market, great sound, a wealth of prototype and roadnumber specific detail, great runners, they have not problems whatsoever! P2Ks are nothing close but still great and I highly recommend them, especially considering they will be cheaper than an Athearn.
Hope this was helpful!
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
I was aware of the cracked gear issue, I already have replacements on hand.
I went ahead and bought it. $54 (shipping included) for a new Santa fe gp9!
Thanks for all the replies!
I have all 4 GP7's they made factory painted for Reading, plus both of the Alco S1 switchers. All run very well. The Geeps have put in a lot of mileage at club shows, and they still run smoothly, never had a problem with them (I replaced the axle gears with the Athearn parts when I had them apart to install decoders).
I also have several P2K FAs. I think I now have all the factory painted ones, any more I would need to either get undec or strip and repaint, but I wouldn't hesistate to buy a P2K loco. Well worth it.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Trainman440 I went ahead and bought it. $54 (shipping included) for a new Santa fe gp9!
Whoa, whoa, whoa, stop the train!
54 dollars! 54 DOLLARS!!!!
Yes, buy it! Good choice! Shipping included!
Wow, want a deal! I would buy a lower quality engine for that. P2K it the best thing for 54 dollars!
I sincerely hope this loco serves you well, and if it doesn’t, you only payed 54 DOLLARS! for it. Good find! No, GREAT find!
I have two LL P2K GP9s and a GP18 in SCL and simply love these smooth running engines.
While they are not geared for high warp speeds they do just fine in the scale speed department.
These make excellent yard engine as well because of their low slow speed and pulling ability.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I also have four of them. Have since replaced all axle gears with Athearn's Got them back in 94', they did not have grease in them, it was oil. Great runners!
Take Care!
Frank
I have 2 of the GP-9s. Other than the cracked gears, which I have replaced, no problems.
I have a P1K Alco RSC-3, which is great although lacking in shell detail. I've also got two sets of the subway trains. One of those developed a shorted motor, which I had to replace
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Congrats! If you found a PROTO Geep for $54, take it and RUN!
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
SPSOT fan Trainman440 I went ahead and bought it. $54 (shipping included) for a new Santa fe gp9! Whoa, whoa, whoa, stop the train! 54 dollars! 54 DOLLARS!!!! Yes, buy it! Good choice! Shipping included! Wow, want a deal! I would buy a lower quality engine for that. P2K it the best thing for 54 dollars! I sincerely hope this loco serves you well, and if it doesn’t, you only payed 54 DOLLARS! for it. Good find! No, GREAT find!
One thing you can say about Life-Like's business model, they sure didn't worry about "pre-orders". I think that may be what hurt the business, ultimately. There was just SO much inventory. Here we are some twenty-years later and there are still lots of new-old stock out there.
I recently bought a still-shrink-wrapped FA-2 along with two FB-2 B units. Got those for $35 each!
Besides the grease and cracked gears, be sure to snap off the worm cover and check the free-play of the main shaft. Somehow a corrosion sets in and, in the case of these three Alcos, the drive shaft was locked to the bearing due to some kind of varnish/dried lubricant/chemical reaction.
Proto_gear-3 by Edmund, on Flickr
I put three Tsunami-2 decoders in these after modifying the weight in addition to a pair of sugar cube speakers. They sound and run beautifully.
PRR_AF16-9616a by Edmund, on Flickr
I added PRR Train Phone to them as well.
PRR_9616-FA2x-sm by Edmund, on Flickr
Thank You, Ed
"How do LifeLike Proto2000 engines run?"
They run great!. Most of my diesel fleet is LifeLike era Proto2000, about 50 of them at last count.
They include EMD GP7's, ALCO FA/FB's, EMD BL2's, ALCO PA/PB's, EMD E8's, EMD SD9's, ALCO S1's, EMD SW9's.
As others have explained cracked gears and hard grease have been the only issues.
On average, I have only paid about $50 each for these locos. I run DC, and do rewire some of the older ones depending on which circuit board they came with.
Still pick them up "new old stock" if they are priced right and on my list of "wants".
Not the best pictures, but here are a few:
Sheldon
$54 is a good deal, but by the way some people are replying - did I miss something? All 4 of the Geeps I own were $50 or less - heck the one I got for $25 at Timonium, guy had $30 marked on it, and it was right at opening time, I picked it up, he said gimme $25 and we're good - SOLD! All have been int he boox. One of my S1's I won on eBay from Modeltrainstuff for $30. The one's I have a hard time finding for low prices are the FAs, but those are sets of two powered units, so $100 isn;t really that bad if a single unit is $50.
What gets me is how the Atlas GP7s, with MUCH poorer detail level, are ALWAYS $100 or more on eBay, P2Ks, $40 all day.
And every one I have - came in the original box.
rrinker $54 is a good deal, but by the way some people are replying - did I miss something? All 4 of the Geeps I own were $50 or less - heck the one I got for $25 at Timonium, guy had $30 marked on it, and it was right at opening time, I picked it up, he said gimme $25 and we're good - SOLD! All have been int he boox. One of my S1's I won on eBay from Modeltrainstuff for $30. The one's I have a hard time finding for low prices are the FAs, but those are sets of two powered units, so $100 isn;t really that bad if a single unit is $50. What gets me is how the Atlas GP7s, with MUCH poorer detail level, are ALWAYS $100 or more on eBay, P2Ks, $40 all day. And every one I have - came in the original box. --Randy
Agreed, I will take a Proto over an Atlas any day. Sure the Atlas drive may be "slightly" better, but overall, the Proto is much better detailed and a much better value - New or "New Old Stock".
I too have only paid $25 and $30 for many Protos. Others I paid a little more to get specific versions, especially specific undecorated versions.
Back in those days there was typically two or three undecorated versions covering the various optional equipment, like with or w/o dynamic brakes, etc.
I mean, they aren't perfect (are any?). The P2K Reading ones have the wrong horn position (but the Atlas ones have the wrong type of horn AND it's in the wrong place). The P2K is missing the long wraparound grab (so's Atlas). The P2K is painted correctly - F indication on the long hood, but the crew figures are facing the short hood (and it's wired to run short hood forward). And hardly anyone actually puts the cab roof drip rails on Reading power. But face it, this is NOT a RTR hobby if you want specific detail, no one makes them that good, at least not for anything but the very biggest railroads. I add drip strips, and paint the vertical handrails yellow, and live with the horn and the missing corner grab. When adding a decoder, I wire it so it runs long hood forward in the normal setting, so I don;t have to change CV29 to make it run the opposite way (which I will forget some years later and wonder why it's running short hood forward after an update or reset).
rrinker I mean, they aren't perfect (are any?). The P2K Reading ones have the wrong horn position (but the Atlas ones have the wrong type of horn AND it's in the wrong place). The P2K is missing the long wraparound grab (so's Atlas). The P2K is painted correctly - F indication on the long hood, but the crew figures are facing the short hood (and it's wired to run short hood forward). And hardly anyone actually puts the cab roof drip rails on Reading power. But face it, this is NOT a RTR hobby if you want specific detail, no one makes them that good, at least not for anything but the very biggest railroads. I add drip strips, and paint the vertical handrails yellow, and live with the horn and the missing corner grab. When adding a decoder, I wire it so it runs long hood forward in the normal setting, so I don;t have to change CV29 to make it run the opposite way (which I will forget some years later and wonder why it's running short hood forward after an update or reset). --Randy
Agreed, but I gave up on being too fussy decades ago. It really got to be no fun.
MY B&O and WESTERN MARYLAND Proto stuff is more than close enough, like the B&O torpedo tube passenger GP's, and undecorated Protos are great with all the unattached details for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
Even years ago it took a small act of congress to even find undecorated Atlas stuff. I like Atlas as a company, they make good stuff, I love their track.
But they can keep their locos - because of their marketing policies that make them hard to obtain.
I like easy to obtain......Proto and Bachmann win on that count, and have gotten most of my loco dollars over the years.
Intermountain and Genesis get the rest of my business with their EMD F units.
Intermountain made my much desired FP7's in an undecorated kit for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL, and matching F7B's to go with.
Trainman440 --
Are you going to run the GP9 on dc, or on dcc? The Proto2000 Geeps seem to come in a "straight dc" version and a kind-of "dcc ready" version.
The latter has an "upside down" 8 pin connector, with a small 8-pin harness that plugs into a larger light board beneath it. Digitrax makes a custom-fit dcc decoder for this, the "DH165LO", I believe. You just unplug the 8-pin harness, unscrew the old light board and take it out, and plug in the custom decoder/new light board.
The dc-only GP's have weights that are so high, there doesn't seem to be "room up top" to put a decoder and get the shell back on. I'm working on one of those now. What I'll do is install one of those 8-pin harnesses and use a tiny Soundtraxx MC1H102P8 (no bigger than the harness), and then the two of them together will fit inside the cab (where the weight is cut out). I know that fits, but I have some LED's on order that I hope will fit in there, too.
Be sure to replace the gears and clean out the gearboxes. I didn't bother trying to pry the gears from the axle halves. Instead I got Athearn part "ATH40028", HO RTR Locomotive Wheel Assembly, 40" (qty 6). Makes it easier!
One problem in answering the question re LL/Proto engines is that, IIRC, Life-Like used more than one company to make it's stuff back then. Some engines, like the E-units and SD-7/9s, have generally had a good reputation, while some other LL engines don't.
In my case, I have two of the GP-9s that I've never really gotten to run well. Oddly enough, I've never had the cracked gear issue with any LL engines, these GPs just seem to bind up. I was interested in Ed's post showing the 'green slime' that can build up, I will have to check out to see if something like that might be the issue.
wjstixOne problem in answering the question re LL/Proto engines is that, IIRC, Life-Like used more than one company to make it's stuff back then. Some engines, like the E-units and SD-7/9s, have generally had a good reputation, while some other LL engines don't.
Stix,I don't know which company produced my LL P2K SCL GP9s and GP18 but,they got them right.
I wonder since LL used different manufacturers would that be the cause of the "gear ratio of the month" problem?
I have a LL P2K SCL GP38-2 that doesn't play well with the above Geeps since its a tad slower but,it plays well with my Seabord System GP38-2s.
BRAKIE wjstix One problem in answering the question re LL/Proto engines is that, IIRC, Life-Like used more than one company to make it's stuff back then. Some engines, like the E-units and SD-7/9s, have generally had a good reputation, while some other LL engines don't. Stix,I don't know which company produced my LL P2K SCL GP9s and GP18 but,they got them right. I wonder since LL used different manufacturers would that be the cause of the "gear ratio of the month" problem? I have a LL P2K SCL GP38-2 that doesn't play well with the above Geeps since its a tad slower but,it plays well with my Seabord System GP38-2s.
wjstix One problem in answering the question re LL/Proto engines is that, IIRC, Life-Like used more than one company to make it's stuff back then. Some engines, like the E-units and SD-7/9s, have generally had a good reputation, while some other LL engines don't.
I do believe that until Walthers bought them, all the locos were made in the same factory.
Gear ratios stayed the same until right before or right after the Walthers takeover.
Stix, I can't comment on what you have without seeing it, but all 50 of mine run great. And I never heard anyone complain other than the cracked gears.
Yea, I plan to add DCC and sound. A few months ago I bought a new Athearn Gensis Santa Fe GP9 with DCC sound for $91(Now THAT was a deal!)
I plan to speed match them and run them together. I believe the engine I bought is DCC ready. If not, Im confident in my skills of modding engines.
Thanks for all the input!
I have 3 old LL GPs and 2 new ones..they run very well. And they are easily upgraded to DCC operation with DTrax drop in decoders. I have 6 E8/E9 diesels and they run very well...maybe a touch noisy. I have two E7 s (DCC/Sound) and they are the best. The split axle gears are easily and cheaply fixable with Athearn replacement gears (or NWSL axle gears).
As a note. LL steam also runs very well with fair pulling power (easily 20 cars on the flat...probably a little more if weighted a little). I'm talking the Y-2 2-8-8-2 and the Berkshires (2-8-4s). My LL 0-8-0 is a nifty yard switcher with great low speed performance.
ATLANTIC CENTRALGear ratios stayed the same until right before or right after the Walthers takeover.
Sheldon,LL P2K "Gear ratio of the month" was dicuss in detail on the old Atlas forum several years back-probably before 2005/06.
I do know my SCL GP38-2 is slower then my SCL GP9s and my GP18 but, MUs with my two Seaboard System GP38-2s.
I have a pair of the LL P2K SD7's and two SW9/1200's. They all run very well and, so far I haven't had the cracked gear problem.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL Gear ratios stayed the same until right before or right after the Walthers takeover. Sheldon,LL P2K "Gear ratio of the month" was dicuss in detail on the old Atlas forum several years back-probably before 2005/06. I do know my SCL GP38-2 is slower then my SCL GP9s and my GP18 but, MUs with my two Seaboard System GP38-2s.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Gear ratios stayed the same until right before or right after the Walthers takeover.
July 25, 2005 "Walthers buys LifeLike".
Yes, I do believe they started playing with the gear ratios, a year or so before the deal was final with Walthers, writing from memory, read what you quoted - I said possibly right before.
Point is, from 1989 to 2004?, 14-15 years, all the 4 axle units had the same gear ratio.
Then, after the Walthers takeover, they played around even more with the gear ratios.
Just one of several reasons why the only Walthers production Proto I own is an ABA set of F units in C&O.