ATLANTIC CENTRAL True, but as I pointed out earlier, what advantage is gained? What problem is solved with battery power? Track cleaning has never been a problem for me in nearly 50 years at this. Wiring has not been a problem for me. For a large number of modelers it is a solution looking for a problem....... Sheldon
True, but as I pointed out earlier, what advantage is gained? What problem is solved with battery power?
Track cleaning has never been a problem for me in nearly 50 years at this.
Wiring has not been a problem for me.
For a large number of modelers it is a solution looking for a problem.......
Sheldon
Yes I pretty much agree. Keep alives have solved any issues I currently have, but I do feel that some day there might be some other advantages come from new technology that aren't apparent now.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
trainnut1250 richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Point? It is unlikely that anyone who is happy with what they have invested time and money into will change to something new. New stuff is for new people, or people starting new layouts....... That pretty much says it all, and it says it well. Rich Up to a point. When the new technology shows big advantages to the previous methods, it will get lots of converts from the old technology. I personally know of lots of large, nearly complete layouts with big rosters that were converted to DCC in the late 90's/early aughts. The owners felt the advantages of DCC were worth the effort and expense. I suspect this will happen again as technology advances far enough to show big advantages over DCC. We aren't there yet for me personally, but I am watching to see what comes next. Guy
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Point? It is unlikely that anyone who is happy with what they have invested time and money into will change to something new. New stuff is for new people, or people starting new layouts....... That pretty much says it all, and it says it well. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Point? It is unlikely that anyone who is happy with what they have invested time and money into will change to something new. New stuff is for new people, or people starting new layouts.......
Point? It is unlikely that anyone who is happy with what they have invested time and money into will change to something new.
New stuff is for new people, or people starting new layouts.......
That pretty much says it all, and it says it well.
Rich
Up to a point. When the new technology shows big advantages to the previous methods, it will get lots of converts from the old technology.
I personally know of lots of large, nearly complete layouts with big rosters that were converted to DCC in the late 90's/early aughts. The owners felt the advantages of DCC were worth the effort and expense. I suspect this will happen again as technology advances far enough to show big advantages over DCC.
We aren't there yet for me personally, but I am watching to see what comes next.
SPSOT fan ATLANTIC CENTRAL You can, but Arduinos are nit really easier or cheaper than relays for what the Lion does, or for what I do with Advanced Cab Control. Sheldon I would guess you’d need loads of Arduinos to do what Lions got. Certainly an investment. It sound like Lions hardware can come cheaply, while a lot of Aduinos adds up. Easier is relative. I bet most people on this forum are more firmiliar with relays and such than I am (What even is a relay! ). I know more about arduinos, etc. so that would be easier for me. Whatever, you do you! I would never go automatic DC, like switching too much. Good thing I model my railroad and you model yours!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL You can, but Arduinos are nit really easier or cheaper than relays for what the Lion does, or for what I do with Advanced Cab Control. Sheldon
You can, but Arduinos are nit really easier or cheaper than relays for what the Lion does, or for what I do with Advanced Cab Control.
I would guess you’d need loads of Arduinos to do what Lions got. Certainly an investment. It sound like Lions hardware can come cheaply, while a lot of Aduinos adds up. Easier is relative. I bet most people on this forum are more firmiliar with relays and such than I am (What even is a relay! ). I know more about arduinos, etc. so that would be easier for me. Whatever, you do you! I would never go automatic DC, like switching too much. Good thing I model my railroad and you model yours!
What I do is not automatic like the Lion, but rather it provides a DCC like operational experiance with CTC, signals, one button route control of turnouts, wireless radio throttles, and more, with no decoders, no programing, no throttles with 35 buttons......
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
SPSOT fan mbinsewi Mr.SPSOT Fan, if your intersted in alternative methods of running multiple trains on the same tracks, you NEED to check out the Lions subway. Mike. Checked the Lions blog Thats complex! Don’t understand much! Being younger I prefer more modern computers! Nonetheless it is an accomplishment. I’ll stick with hardware I can buy, and only customize the software if anything! Hey, could you use Arduinos to run something similar... Just an idea!
mbinsewi Mr.SPSOT Fan, if your intersted in alternative methods of running multiple trains on the same tracks, you NEED to check out the Lions subway. Mike.
Mr.SPSOT Fan, if your intersted in alternative methods of running multiple trains on the same tracks, you NEED to check out the Lions subway.
Mike.
Checked the Lions blog
Thats complex! Don’t understand much! Being younger I prefer more modern computers!
Nonetheless it is an accomplishment. I’ll stick with hardware I can buy, and only customize the software if anything!
Hey, could you use Arduinos to run something similar...
Just an idea!
You can, but Arduinos are not really easier or cheaper than relays for what the Lion does, or for what I do with Advanced Cab Control.
SPSOT fanHey, could you use Arduinos to run something similar...
Ard..... what? I have to look at your post to even spell it! There's lot of guys on here that use those, too. Me ?
Mike
My You Tube
Bat Trees?
LION has experence with bat trees, and it is not good.
LION Has never made a bat tree powerd tool work good, so why him think a bat tree powered train wood work.
Locomotive with black stripes is diesel powered:
Locomotive with green stripes is Electric Powered:
Has bat tree box so it can run where is no third rail, such as over switch points, but not for long duty, is small bat tree pack.
Now back to railroad of LION... Him runs subways, on a special DC layout, all well and good, but lights of subway cars needs to stay on when train stops (no power) in station.
Lion has tried bat trees, but the bats all fly away over night. knead switch to tern off lights?
Then you would have to go around to all ten trains turning lights off and onn.
Rechargable bat trees, LION at least haves no luck, nor likewise luck with super caps.
Commuters of LION will just have to sit in the dark when train is in station. Satastion s after all are well lit and vieweres might not even nmotice that the lights went off.
Notice, they will, when a LION comes to eat them!
LION will vist Groton next time him is east. A submarine bat tree ought to work, but of course I might have to go to a larger skale.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
emdmike,
I think I said that in two sentences and Rich quoted me right above your post.
Yes, new people will try these new things, and they will advance.
BUT, in 25 years DCC has only made a 60% to 75% penitration into HO and N, and less in larger scales.
I likely won't be here when battery power in HO becomes mainstream.
But more importantly, for me, and many modelers, one more important point.
This technology solves no problems for me - It would not make my train operating experiance any better, so I don't need it, nor do I want to afford it.
I think many here are being short sighted in their arguments. While I dont think anybody expects an established modeler to re-equip a whole layout and fleet with battery power(if it was available on a wide spread basis today). But up and comming modelers might consider it as they get started in the future. Track power will probably never go away, just as there are still track powered, DCC and onboard battery in both G and O scale. HO is being tested, using very expensive batteries used in handheld medical devices. Run time was around 1.5 to 2 hours with the average can motored engine, and the gentleman testing these has his own combined radio control, charging circuit and sound all on one very small circuit board. If we go back 10 years, or 20 and tell those modelers in G scale that we would have radio control with onboard battery power, along with those smart phones(basicaly mini computer and phone all in one when you get down to brass tacks), they would have said impossible, never will happen, and your crazy......Yet here we are, with all of those things being a reality. Batteries keep getting better, smaller with better duration and less issues of bursting into fire when charging. I have no reason to NOT think this will change as companies keep pushing the technology forward. Model trains will benefit from this and those that CHOOSE to experiment with onboard battery will push others to do the same and inovate. Just as we did that to achieve the world of DCC as we know it today. Progress moves foward in all aspects of life, why should our hobbies stay stagnet in the past in reguards to control and technology? They wont, but as is today, you will have modelers stay with DC over DCC control, or in the future, track power vs onboard battery power. When I started in this hobby in my teens as I moved away from Lionel toy trains and into HO and G scale, who would have thought we would see onboard sound in HO, let alone in N scale. Successfull Z and T scale layouts for those with great eyesight, and onboard battery RC in G scale. All of those were fig newtons in someones imagination when I was a teenager or just an experiment being done by a few that were doing what we as a race do best, inovate/invent. So for those out there pushing the envelope in the hobby, good luck and best wishes. Those of us with open minds will share those successes and failures with you. Mike the Aspie
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
Alton Junction
rrinker A power car behind the loco - might work for steam, but for anyone into serious operations, and using diesel locos, this will never fly. Requiring a specific car to always be right behind the loco flies in the face of prototypical operation.
How about having batteries in both the locomotives and following cars? The locomotive battery would be used for switching the locomotive around and running light, and the larger car battery would provide enough power to pull the train once everything is hooked up.
Connecting the battery cars to the locomotives would logically require some sort of power conducting coupler system but I'm sure that sort of mechanical detail could be worked out.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Not interested in dead rail or DCC, when DC will do everything I want, and at limited cost and minimal effort.
For those that are interested in such things, my best wishes.
Wayne
Yes, that withrottle.
Who knows if it would gain wide acceptance, but I would certainly love it if something like that could be made for cheap...
I'm beginning to realize that Windows 10 and sound decoders have a lot in common. There are so many things you have to change in order to get them to work the way you want.
BNSF UP and others modeler $100 doesn't sound too bad for a dcc sound radio control decoder. But then you have to still buy the control system... What I'm really itching for is a module that doesn't use radio, but recieves signals from withrottle. You would be able to wire this module in with an existing dcc sound decoder and it would also allow the battery to be charged on track power. That way you can mix and match with what decoders you want, and you can run battery when you feel like using battery, and when you feel like using track power, you can do that too. And since it would work with withrottle, no need to buy expensive radio controls. And withrottle already works with coventional dcc systems anyway... I wonder if its possible to make something like this? I daresay someone will have to invent a DIY version and post instructions online before companies will take a hold of the idea. But if someone could make my idea happen, it would offer SO many options...
$100 doesn't sound too bad for a dcc sound radio control decoder. But then you have to still buy the control system...
What I'm really itching for is a module that doesn't use radio, but recieves signals from withrottle. You would be able to wire this module in with an existing dcc sound decoder and it would also allow the battery to be charged on track power. That way you can mix and match with what decoders you want, and you can run battery when you feel like using battery, and when you feel like using track power, you can do that too. And since it would work with withrottle, no need to buy expensive radio controls. And withrottle already works with coventional dcc systems anyway...
I wonder if its possible to make something like this? I daresay someone will have to invent a DIY version and post instructions online before companies will take a hold of the idea. But if someone could make my idea happen, it would offer SO many options...
Do you mean withrottle as in my smart phone on my home wifi?
A throttle on the smart phone I don't have and who's touch screen interface I would not want to control a train with?
Good luck getting wide acceptance of that........
PS - I don't have a smart phone, but I posted this from my Galaxy Tablet, but I won't be using that as a throttle either.
I have three steam engines, IHC 2-6-0, that I've installed an R/C system and voltage regulator in. The engines can run on DC, DCC, or AC. Very simple wiring for the layout. The recievers I use were developed by a British guy who flies battery powered model airplanes. David Theunissen produces receivers for locomotives from N to O scale. http://www.deltang.co.uk/about.htm
Here's a pic of those engines.
Bernd
New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds
protolancer(at)kingstonemodelworks(dot)com
mobilman44 The first word the comes to mind is "Why?" My 10 year old Digitrax system is flawless, and with $2k invested in it (and decoders) I just can't see any reason why I would want to mess with batteries in my trains. Yikes, just the thought of that brings me back to horror stories of leaking horn batteries in postwar Lionel diesels........ Some aspiring MRs may be interested in this concept, but I suggest anyone already established with a system - especially those of us "of age" - would not be willing to change over......
The first word the comes to mind is "Why?"
My 10 year old Digitrax system is flawless, and with $2k invested in it (and decoders) I just can't see any reason why I would want to mess with batteries in my trains.
Yikes, just the thought of that brings me back to horror stories of leaking horn batteries in postwar Lionel diesels........
Some aspiring MRs may be interested in this concept, but I suggest anyone already established with a system - especially those of us "of age" - would not be willing to change over......
Agreed, just like my DC Aristo Train Engineer wireless throttles work flawlessly with my Advanced Cab Control with CTC and signaling.
I don't need DCC, it would require a $5,000 investment in decoders alone.......not to mention 8 wireless throttles at what price?
Well, still DC thru the rails here.
But I do think Direct Radio with track power would have some advantages over DCC once a full working system is developed and standardized.
Batteries for small scales seem like a lot of trouble and expense at this point in time.
Control needs vary greatly with modeling goals. DCC can meet most all goals, but it is not always the most cost effective. It can be very expensive in some layout senerios, and you are paying for functionality you may not really need or use.
But at this point direct radio is still limited and costly - let alone figuring out the battery thing.
I've no interest in this. DCC all the way.
(My Model Railroad, My Rules)
These are the opinions of an under 35 , from the east end of, and modeling, the same section of the Wheeling and Lake Erie railway. As well as a freelanced road (Austinville and Dynamite City railroad).
rrinkerSo instead of a battery capable of running the loco for hours for a full operating session, a much shorter runtime would be fine if you also had some powered track and it could charge the batery. Still elminate reverse loop issues, and don't have to worry about dirty track until it gets so bad that no locos ever get charged. Constrol can still be direct radio instead of a signal in the rail.
+1
This seems like the right approach for the medium term. The metal rails are already there – why not use them to provide charging for some caps or a small battery to cover a few dead spots? Direct radio for control, if desired, but use the infrastructure for power.
If manufacturers approached this correctly, these small caps could be recharged from DCC power on the rails – easy and natural transition.
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Just check RC sites for how often there are problems with lithium-polymer battery packs, especially cheap ones (and if you think model train manufacturers woudl spully their locos with high end batery packs instead of whatever their Chinese factories put in.....). Currently this is the only battery technology even remotely suitable for HO. N scale - pretty much forget it, and anything smaller, not a chance. Even a properly designed battery ack with the proper controller chips can still fail, and fail rather spectactularly. Don't forget to remove the battery when drilling holes for grabs or lift rings - drilling in to a lipo battery causes some really neat pyrotechnic effects. One of the reasons I never really took up RC flying (apart from a cheap drone I have, and a cheap foam plane) is because that's an awful lot of work to make a nice plane only to have it turned into a bunch of sticks when it crashes on the first flight (check out that scale model B52 - the fireball it sent up when it crashed looked like a real plane crashing). Now, I'm not worried about my loco going up in flames if it should accidently leave the layout and fall to the floor - that's not very likely to happen at all. But a bad battery, bad charger, bad charge controller - might end up with a melted puddle of plastic goo on the rails.
Capacitors may be where it's at. A bunch of years ago, the idea of a > 1 Farad capacitor was almost a pipe dream. Or something size of a pipe - a sewer pipe. Now they are pretty darn small, small enough to fit inside an HO loco along with a sound decoder and speaker, plus the motor and drivetrain. And a cab interior. Combined with more efficient motors, these things cna now keep a loco moving for 30 seconds or more with no power at all coming throgh the rails - in fact I find the extra long run time to actually be more annoying a times than occasional stalls on dirty track. In the tiny little Walthers Plymouth switcher they have some capacitors. The loco runs across my workbench (the workbench - not on any rails, powered or otherwise) for at least 30 seconds. Keep alives should go for a couple of seconds at most, just to clean dead frogs or small dirty spots ont he track. If the dead areas are bigger than this - there are other problems you ought to be addressing, not hiding by adding more capacitors. However, no one says you couldn;t use MORE capcitors andmake the loco run for several minutes on a charge, at least. Steal locos - there's a LOT of room for a capacitor bank and then you'd have to stop periodically on powered track at a water tower to fill up the tender. ANd as long as you don;t conenct thembackwards, the capacitors will last a good long time. Only connect backwards if you want to simulate a boiler explosion.
I see more of a hybrid appoach, unless there is a huge battery breakthrough. THe latest technology I have seen has slightly less capacity than lipo, but you can also cut through it with a shear and all you get is a reduced capacity battery, no smoke and flames. Or drive a nail through it and it still works. So instead of a battery capable of running the loco for hours for a full operating session, a much shorter runtime would be fine if you also had some powered track and it could charge the batery. Still elminate reverse loop issues, and don't have to worry about dirty track until it gets so bad that no locos ever get charged. Constrol can still be direct radio instead of a signal in the rail.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Here is the link to the video that have me the idea of dead rail in HO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLlfPXIOXBk
I hope it’s helpful for those who would like an example of how it can be done.
There seems to be some confusion as to what type of batteries would be used in dead rail loco. You would need to use a rechargeable battery with the proper dimensions to fit in a loco, perhaps the fuel tank. That where the loco I saw on YouTube had a rechargable battery in the fuel tank with a plug for recharging in the dynamic break hatch that came off.
I honestly don’t think many people will go completely dead rail, it’s just to inflexible. But a few dead rail loco in the fleet, that I think many will adopt. If you have just one battery loco it can be great to bring to you friends who use an incompatible system. Also what better engine to pull your track cleaner on that really dirty track!
Water Level Route SPSOT fan then replace the stock decoder with a RailPro one and sell the stock one to get some money back. May have trouble with this. Often the stock decoder is specific to one or a few units and not really universal. Those units it would fit, were likely all sold with them in it. Not uncommonly, there are also somewhat stripped down sound units, not the full featured ones. This could further limit your market. Lastly, those manufacturers with proprietary decoders (BLI, MTH) you will be really hard pressed to find folks willing to buy them. They are sometimes replaced with better aftermarket units because people don't want them. Someone may well be able to provide contradictory information, but I personally see this as limited at best.
SPSOT fan then replace the stock decoder with a RailPro one and sell the stock one to get some money back.
May have trouble with this. Often the stock decoder is specific to one or a few units and not really universal. Those units it would fit, were likely all sold with them in it. Not uncommonly, there are also somewhat stripped down sound units, not the full featured ones. This could further limit your market. Lastly, those manufacturers with proprietary decoders (BLI, MTH) you will be really hard pressed to find folks willing to buy them. They are sometimes replaced with better aftermarket units because people don't want them. Someone may well be able to provide contradictory information, but I personally see this as limited at best.
It’s certainly limited, and all an idea. I would probably buy DCC ready versions of stuff that is hard to sell. The point of buying DCC to convert is the speaker is already in place. Again all just an idea, I have not even tried RailPro yet, just reasearched it a lot and watched many videos. Perhaps it is as you say “limited at best”, I have not actually experience to back it up.