RTR OR KIT

[CBQ_Guy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

It really gives me a chuckle to hear today's model railroaders complaining about attaching some detailed parts to a basicly completed locomotive. I'd have to say that the ranks of current hobbyists would be drastically curtailed if they had to start out by filing off all the castings parting lines from every locomotive part, drill, tap or solder every detail part in place and then assemble and tinker with the drive mechanism for hours to get the engine to run smoothly, the way it was done years ago. Let's face it, this has always been a hobby based on personal skills and craftsmanship...never on instant gratification.

CNJ831

Yeah, but . . .

The times they are a changin' and this ain't Daddy's, or Granpa's hobby anymore. Not good or bad, just different. Life is change...bottom line is, either way ya do it, in the end you still get a railroad and get to operate trains.

It took me a l-o-n-g time to realize this fact, and I'm 51 and been in the hobby starting way back in 1956. I just accept it as where the hobby has evolved to, not what it's sunken to.

Either way, I'm still havin' fun doing it MY way.

(and I sleep better and no headaches anymore worrying about it, either!)

[Anonymous]

MEHRLICH, When i was at trainworld,i asked to see the loco (sd-70m),it was my second choise, and like all good modelers,very excited. It was the second loco in the
$100 range that i was buying. I asked to have the loco tested,but i failed to see that the rails , etc. were not assembled.I put together as much as i thought was necessary,and i felt some satisfaction in doing so.Now its on my layout and it runs well,and looks just as good.

[Anonymous]

Ted D. Kramer Thank you for you kind thoughts,and i will enjoy my hobby as i see fit . We should all enjoy our hobby in our own way, and not critizise others
becuse they dont think the same way. Iam sorry if i am coming on strong, and we all should enjoy other thoughts and labor.

[Anonymous]

Joe,
Even though I'm about twenty years younger than you, I still have trouble with smaller parts (I have sausages for fingers), as well as not being able to see well. Again, that's why I say be sure to open the box and see what's there before you buy. I hate to see someone (like you) frustrated, because I know how much fun it is to get a new locomotive. Is there any way you can exchange it for something you like? I also hope I'm still doing this when I'm your age!

m

[Anonymous]

Joe Aloia, I should be so lucky to be assembling HO train kits at age 73 years. I probably will have cashiered out long before then. R. to R. is the obvious solution in many such cases and asking specifically for R. to R. before purchasing would be a good policy in the future. Best of luck for another 73 years of enjoying the greatest hobby on the planet.

[Anonymous]

Yes, Highironon2003ar, there is much to be said for saving time on seemingly unproductive projects. My problem has always been finding a "unproductive project." Every time I complete, e.g. a dining car with lighted interior, operating diaphragms, correct road numbers, ice hatches that open, accurate floor details, table settings et al.; there is a sense of accomplishment that not even a finely detailed brass Japanese import could imbue. Of the hundreds of facets that make-up a model railroad, each has equal importance for careful attention to detail. The alternatives will never bring the long lasting satisfaction of reaching for perfection within the limits of our abilities. Operation is only one of too many aspects of the hobby to mention here. Happy "productivity."

[Anonymous]

My complaint is this, if some assembly is required,it should be noted on the box. I prefer
RTR items. One reason, at 73 my hands shake, then there is the poor eyesight,need i
go any further.

[Anonymous]

Ted, I agree with your thoughts regarding CNJ831's post on the matter. I too recall having to shave off molded on grabirons if I wanted to install real grab irons onto the models. Finally I just bought models that had real irons already included because the time can be better used elsewhere.

[Anonymous]

I'll get back on my "buy from LHS" soapbox again. I'll never buy anything again that I can't pick up and hold or look at first. I think it eliminates a lot of problems like this.

m

[Anonymous]

I had hoped that the disclaimer: "Speaking strictly from a Neanderthal point of view" might have averted the "knee reaction" rehtoric resulting from touching upon a "raw nerve." As far as Muddy Creek's reference to "the same old thread" goes, perhaps "the same old" saying: "opinions are like navels; everyone has one" applies. Additionally, [for the life of me] I don't recall one thing mentioned about an "authority to pronounce who is or who isn't a model railroader." In regard to a depletion in the
"ranks of the hobby," this will occur by attrition in any case. How many folks still gaze at their first toy train set circling endlessly on a "roundy-round?" By the way, is the "market place" a first priority among scale model railroaders?

Regarding Highiron2003ar's comment on straying from the original Topic: "RTR OR KIT ," I may only refer back to the title of the Topic. As to enjoying "...each other's contributions regardless of the labor that went into any item;" who's "labor" and what "contributions?" It occurs to me that CNJ831 "hit the Bull's Eye" with his mention of "instant gratification." I humbly submit another time honored saying: "Beauty (Art) is in the eye of the beholder." Happy railroading to all, no matter what your preference may be.

[Anonymous]

I am not sure where we made the trip from isntalling handrails to machine building componets for your own engine... However anyone who runs trains in the hobby will engage in various activities and different skill levels. The one with the exquistely detailed hand built item should be as much happy as the one who spent a few dollars on RTR that runs well on his or her pike.

We should enjoy each other's contributions regardless of the "Labor" that went into any item.

[Anonymous]

We're getting into the same old thread of what modeling railroading is supposed to be and who is or isn't a model railroader. RTR fans claim modeling their railroad and running trains is enough. Kit builders claim the RTR crowd are ruining their hobby by decreasing the kit supply and the real old-timers, who turned their own wheels on lathes and, like the Professor, built transformers from two coconuts and Gilligan's hat, scoff at the wimps who buy kits and call themselves "modelers."

It's all too funny and all too unnecessary. While most get their feet wet with RTR, those who become serious about the hobby eventually get involved with some kits or perhaps scratchbuilding anyway. This is a hobby of people of varying interests and skills, served by manufacturers who are more than pleased to meet the marketplace accordingly. I agree when CNJ831 says the ranks of the hobby would be depleted if every locomotive involved building from raw materials and machine tools. I don't believe fewer people in the hobby serves anyone. And I wouldn't presume to have the authority to pronounce who is or who isn't a model railroader.

Wayne

[Anonymous]

Speaking strictly from a Neanderthal point of view, "model railroading" has always involved a certain level of skill, research, experience and patience. Naturally, the finished quality of the "model" will depend on how much time is devoted to each of the 4 areas mentioned. We can only expect to reach a "quality" within our own physical limitations. For me the operative phrase here is "pride in acheivement." Having survived the days of hand drilling and tapping holes in Zamac, Brass and white metal castings, only to scrounge around for proper gauge wire for "super detailing" steam, water and electrical conduits, pipes, etc.- - the challanges offered by plastic prefabricated parts, pre-drilled, pre painted and letterd "plastic" shells seem less than daunting.

Personally, I would hold a [not so perfect] hand built "crummy" caboose in much higher esteem than the most super detailed "out of the box" R.T.R. locomotive. A 100 car roster of "shake the box" assembled rolling stock would not impress me as much a dozen super detailed, hand assembled/painted/lettered freight or passenger cars. Going from the days of all metal, hand soldered, components [only] kits to today's silk screen engraved pre painted plastic toys; has been a long and unrewarding journey. The bottom line for me is the self-fullfilling satisfaction of having done what it takes to present a fine scale model, not a "top shelf" manufacurer's creation.

[CNJ831]

It really gives me a chuckle to hear today's model railroaders complaining about attaching some detailed parts to a basicly completed locomotive. I'd have to say that the ranks of current hobbyists would be drastically curtailed if they had to start out by filing off all the castings parting lines from every locomotive part, drill, tap or solder every detail part in place and then assemble and tinker with the drive mechanism for hours to get the engine to run smoothly, the way it was done years ago. Let's face it, this has always been a hobby based on personal skills and craftsmanship...never on instant gratification.

CNJ831

[CP5415]

I messed up one of the grab irons on my Kato Business car, but it wasn't too bad to do.
I haven't touched any of my Walthers passenger cars yet.
Still deciding whether or not to do them.
The only Proto locomotive I have that has grab irons, they were already installed.
There are a few detail parts to add, but I'll probably add those when I find time.

Time, what on earth is that?

Gordon

[trolleyboy]

I've put many a Kato and two CNsd75's together for a good friend who's sight is alittle subpar,and yes I know your pain. My guess is that there is a graveyard of Kato and Proto 2000 grab irons on most modlers floors, probably not unlike the left socks that keep getting eaten by most peoples washing machines.I have found that a good pair of sprue cutters and a good pair of micromark needlnose tweesers are essential tools for doing these kits. Most of the manufacturers have gone to more fully assembled loco's but practise and a slow and steady approach to building these type of kits will have you finding a rhytham and likely a few shortcuts as time goes by, hang in there you got some good kits which will bring you years of enjoyment and besides they do give you several extra grabs if you do have a couple fly off to never never land on you. One other tip is maybe buy a couple of bags of tichy grabs i've found that (espeacially on Kato's)that they will fit the predrilled holes on these loco's better you will need to touch the tichy grabs with some body colored paint though as they are shinney brass wire. Good luck trolleyboy

[Anonymous]

Hey guys those Athearn Genesis SD70m You are talking about are from the first run and have to be assembled. It did not take me a long time to assemble mine which I did maybe 5 of them. The second run of the SD70M's and 75m's are actually completely assembled. There is nothing that has to be done except a DCC decoder if you have them. I am totally in love with the genesis models. In my opinion I know they are better than BLI, Kato, and Atlas. They run so beautifully and not loud. They run great at slow speeds. They look damn good too. As for the assembly of Katos I also did about three of them and they are such a pain too. You have to install a bunch of stuff just like the older Athearn Genesis SD70M . Just remember when you buy your next SD70M or 75M make sure it is the RTR version or be ready to assemble it.

[Anonymous]

Oh man, I remembered a Kato Business car I have not yet touched. So many small things to do. I did assemble a set of 3 Kato... count em... 3 covered hoppers 70 ton and frankly I will never do another again. That kit did fall together with barely a glue drop needed here and there.

I dont know what kind of work it takes to "final assemble" a model at the factory but if you got a 200- engine ready to go.. please make it really ready to go. Never mind the packing materials used and the risk of damage.

[Anonymous]

I hear ya! I too have an Athearn SD70M, and I've yet to detail it. Why? Because it's so friggen hard! I detailed my HO Kato Business car and that took 3 hours. I can't imagine how long this SD70M will take. I think I might just sell it......

[Anonymous]

I recently bought a Stewart DS4-4-1000 off eBay, and it was the same -- tons of tiny plastic grab rails and the like to install. Thank goodness for those magnifying things you wear on your head, or I never would have gotten them all in. There's still one grab rail somewhere on the floor in my train room that popped out of my tweezers to never be found. [:(]

[Anonymous]

I completed an Athearn SD-70m some years ago, replacing the cab with a Canadian style one. I don't recall the assembly of the added parts, but assume they are as you stated.

I was recently asked by a friend to add the detail parts to a Kato diesel - I think it may have been an AC4400. Anyway I too was amazed with the number of grab irons, handrails, windshield wipers, etc, that had to be added! I was glad that I had some sprue cutters, because these parts were so small and fragile. It took me over an hour to add them all, and I consider myself an advanced modeler. So I imagine someone with less experience would have more difficulties. I use a workbench lamp with a built in magnifiyer, and this certainly helped.

Bob Boudreau

[Anonymous]

Yestaurday ,i had the greatest pleasure of purchasing a Athearn Genesis SD-70m. This is the second athearn at these prices,before these were the bachmanns and life like. Untill i opened the box ,and saw what has to be done to have a detailed locomotive. There are five bags of plastic parts,one bag with
metal grab irons. So far i have spent two and a half hours and installed eight
grab irons. My neck is now killing me, and there is now seven more illustrations to go. I thought i would buy this excellant running loco, put it on the track and enjoy. It looks like a weeks work left to do. For the money i spent on this loco i wanted a complete RTR unit., not a kit. Its fine for you modelers that go for kits,but i think athearn should label their boxes "FOR EXPERIENCED
MODELERS ONLY". I weigh 210 lbs, when i try to pick up a grab iron ,all i see are fingers. beside all this i spent thirteen dollars on a #79 drill,and a pin vise.
This really discouraged me,but the two athearns are the greating running engines,smooth and quite. Now to apply some ben gay,where it hurts.