GN Empire Builder motive power question.

[jrbernier]

Mike,
The problems with using the ex-'Q' E's and ex-GN F's together was the incompatible gearing: 98 mph vs 89 mph. Also the ex-GN passenger F's were really worn out by this time. The ex-NP passenger F's were in much better condition and were the preferred power power as ther were not enough of the SDP40/45 to cover the trans-con pool. The decision was made to move the SDP40/45's to freight service as Amtrak was 'in the wings'. This left only the older cab units available for Amtrak purchase. The GN had 6 SDP40's and 8 SDP45's - this gave them 7 'sets' of these big engines, and it took 7 sets to cover the Empire Builder/Western Star schedule.
If the gearing matched, and the 'loading' was also matched, there would be no problem running these engine together on a basically 'flat' route(St Paul - Havre). The Milwaukee road mixed E9's and FP7's together all the time with great success.

Jim Bernier

[michealfarley]

While we're on the subject........

The E7's arrived late in 1945, so they pulled the heavyweight EB until the streamliners arrived in January-February 1947. The pulled the heavyweights with the short-lived "script lettering" on the nose, but they were repainted before arrival of the streamliners.

In the 1960's before the SDP's arrived on GN property, CB&Q E8's and E9's ran through from the Twin Cities to Havre on the Builder and Western Star.

At merger time, the BN pulled the SDP's for freight service and again tried to use the Q E's on these trains, but had the same problems, and went back to F-units.

[passengerfan]

Short followup Re Empire Builder electrification. The electrics classes Y-1 were repainted in Empire Builder colors. The W-1 electrics were delivered in the Orange and Green Scheme. The older Z-1 class electrics remained in the old Green scheme . All trains were assigned electrification through the Cascade tunnel territory from Wenatchee to Skykomish a distance of 71 miles. The electrics ran until July 1956 when the new tunnel blower became operational and diesels ran through. When the E7A units were first assigned to the Empire Builder they were turned at Wenatchee and EMD FT diesel sets operated from Skykomi***o Seattle. This lasted but a few months in 1947 and again was repeated in 1948. When the GN fianlly decided that all major diesel servicing would be performed at Interbay only in Washington State the EMD passenger FT diesels were transcfered to St. Paul.

[jrbernier]

As noted in a previous post, the GN used the P-2 Mountains on the east end and the S-2 Northerns on the west end(mountains). These engines ran the heavyweight EB up through WWII. At one time most of the GN steam engines were painted in the 'Glacier Park' scheme. The GN then bought 5 'AA' sets of E7's for passenger service and they pulled the heavyweight train until the the new streamlined cars arrived in 1947. The GN had problems with the E7's on Marias Pass. The engines were geared for 117 mph and had a very high minimum speed/short time rating. They suffered overheated traction motors as they cound not stay above the minimum continuous speed needed to keep the motors from overheating. 5 F3B units were purchased to be added to the train west of Havre, but the real fix was to purchase ABA sets of F3's with 89 mph gearing for passenger service on this line. The 13 E7's(3 more were purchased for the International/Red River trains) wound up on non-mountain assignments like the Winnipeg Ltd, Badger, Gopher, and Dakotian.
A lot has been written about if the E7 fleet would have been regeared to 85 mph speeds that maybe they would have been able to handle the schedule in the mountains. Of course that was never done, and as it happened the 13 E7's worked out fine on the smaller trains they were later assigned to. The EB 'grew' in size, and the Western Star was combined with the Fast Mail, meaning that even 3 unit F's were not able to handle the trains and they had to add a 4th unit for heavy summer traffic.

Jim Bernier

[7j43k]

The Empire Builder got its orange and green paint scheme when it was re-equipped with lightweight cars. It also got diesels at that time. So, we have either steam pulling green heavyweights or diesels pulling orange and green lightweights. That's the "rule". Now what about the exceptions?

Well, there's the electric locomotives for running through the Cascade tunnel. I wonder how long, if at all, they pulled the Builder through the tunnel after the diesels arrived.

As for steam pulling an orange or green Builder, it would seem that every once in awhile diesels might be unavailable for the duty; and a nice 4-8-4 would conceivably be pressed into service (while they were still around and available).

I wonder if anyone out there has evidence that this ever happened? HINT-HINT

Ed

[passengerfan]

Empire Builder pre streamlined assigned two of the finest steam locomotives in land the P-2 4-8-2 Mountains and S-2 4-8-4 Northerns first Northern with 80" drivers. These massive machines did an excellent job of keeping even the heaviest wartime consists on the advertised. The EMD E-7 units for the postwar Empire Builders of 1947 were a disapointment in mountainous territory. It wasn't until the EMD F-units in A-B-A or A-B-B-A lashups were assigned that the streamliners found the right power for the Empire Builder and Western Star trains. The E- Units were assigned to flatter territory and shorther trains such as Winnipeg Limited, Badger, Gopher, Dakotan, Internationals, and Red River. But for the time they operated behind steam the P-2 Mountains and S-2 Northerns were the choice of power.

[Virginian]

Before the coming of the green and orange cab units, what primary steam motive power did the GN employ on the Empire Builder, and was this while the Empire Builder consist was wearing the green and orange Glacier Park scheme? I believe I remember reading it was their Northerns, but I can't remember, and I don't remember the consist description either. I am a dyed in the wool N&W and VGN guy, but I just always liked the look of the Hiawathas, the Empire Builder, the Daylight, and the C&O's blue, yellow, and silver streamliners (with diesels even). It's a shame the Milwaukee didn't make the slight extra effort required to register the fastest steam engine world record. They could have done it easily with a regular revenue Hiawatha, and on the flat too (not that 'allowable' downgrade Mallard used). Thanks.