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Filling and Then Redrilling a Hole in an Athearn Chassis

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Posted by Attuvian on Sunday, March 17, 2019 8:35 AM

 
Attuvian
Is this a "down under" product?  And strong enough to be drilled and tapped?

Gidday John, it's a South African product and would appear to be available in the US, though perhaps not in your local hardware store.

Cheers, the Bear.Smile

 
Bear,
 
Here's to the global economy.  Was in the "has most everything" hardware store Friday.  It had both the Devcon and the JB Weld but not your stuff.
 
Went home and hauled out my old tubes of the JB, mixed up a small gob and filled the hole.  Let it set for a bit more than a day then carefully trimmed the excess with an Exacto blade.  I slowly drilled it out using a pin vise, just to be able to sense the hardness and consistence.  It took a slow and easy tapping process nicely and the subsequent lightly snug mounting of the coupler box.  I am pleased with the result.  The durability test awaits.
 
And speaking of tests, England v. Scotland yesterday was an absolute cracker.  Will watch Ireland - Wales today.
 
Sent you a PM.  All our tender best to our friends in NZ.
 
John
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Posted by "JaBear" on Sunday, March 17, 2019 3:43 AM

Attuvian
Is this a "down under" product?  And strong enough to be drilled and tapped?

Gidday John, it's a South African product and would appear to be available in the US, though perhaps not in your local hardware store.

Cheers, the Bear.Smile

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

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Posted by RR_Mel on Friday, March 15, 2019 11:44 AM

Wayne
 
I didn’t think about that when I tried it, that most likely was the problem because JB Weld normally is the fix all for all my Epoxy jobs.
 
 
EDIT:
 
I’ve even used JB Weld to make HO figures in my molds when I’m in a hurry and don’t want to mess around with resin.
This guy iss one of them.
 
 
His lantern is a SMT LED.  I carved him up to hide the wires then patched him with more JB Weld.
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by doctorwayne on Friday, March 15, 2019 11:40 AM

If the hole is off-centre from where it should be, it's usually a good idea to enlarge the hole before filling it, regardless of the filler used.  That way, drilling and tapping is done in material with the same properties, and therefore less likely to be forced off-course by the harder or softer original material.

Wayne

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Posted by RR_Mel on Friday, March 15, 2019 10:30 AM

Marlon
 
I use JB Weld for fixes on all kinds of material and the Athearn fix didn’t work as well as I would like.  It could have been the thickness or depth of the hole, I didn’t enlarge the holes.  The Epoxy crumbled as the tap went in.  Like I said it might have worked OK but as a rule when I’m not warm and fuzzy I don’t go with it.
 
I’ve had pretty good experience enlarging holes then gluing in either a nut or a brass or nylon standoff.  Normally a permanent long time fix.  I keep a good stock on hand of both.
 
 
 
They are easy to cut to size and they have extremely good threads, I have cutover to almost all my repair and scratch building to metric screws.  Mainly because of the metric screw assortments work out better on the China made model railroad stuff.
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by Medina1128 on Friday, March 15, 2019 9:53 AM

Attuvian

Thanks, guys. I think Dave has a good point: start cheap and simple and see what happens. I never tried drilling and tapping hardened epoxy. But if it can be done, that would likely work as I can't imagine a whole lot of shear stress in this application. And good fortune attends my case anyway - because the coupler is on the short hood, front end of an SP loco that is unlikely to ever be MU'd behind something else. If that doesn't work, I'll check out the helicoils at Home Depot or, better yet, a great old-time hardware store here in town that has rows upon rows of magical items.

John

 

I KNOW you can drill and tap JB Weld.

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Posted by mbinsewi on Friday, March 15, 2019 8:26 AM

I had to take a look at a couple of mine, but I think (at least it looks like) I just matched the height of the opening in the pilot.

I don't remember if I had to do any fine tuning with shims, or not.  More than likely, I did, but looking at the Athearn BB locos I've done this to, I matched the excisting opening height in the pilot.

Of course I did this before the plow, ditch lights, hoses, etc were all added, while it was just the plain pilot.

Mike.

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Posted by doctorwayne on Thursday, March 14, 2019 10:12 PM

That's certainly a better version of the photo, Mel.

RR_Mel
Do you have a easy way to align the coupler height?

It's been so long since I've done those locos, I don't recall the exact procedure, but I'd likely have measured, inside the loco, the approximate distance between the bottom of the end walkways and the bottom of the tongue to which the coupler would normally have been attached.  I used stacked .060" sheet material (I buy it in 4'x8' sheets, so always have lots on-hand), and when I'm getting close to the proper height, simply lightly tack what might be of suitable thickness onto the stack already built.  If it's too thin or thick, it can be easily removed and replaced with something more suitable.
While each model of diesel might require a different stack of styrene to get to the proper coupler height, once you've done one, all multiples of that particular model should be the same.  I had only three of those U-Boats, and five Athearn switchers, so not a lot of figuring-out to be done for mine.

Wayne

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Posted by RR_Mel on Thursday, March 14, 2019 3:46 PM

I was looking for a way to do it without having to take the shell off and on a dozen times to make sure its at the correct height.
 
It seems like every time I remount a coupler it takes forever to get it correct.  That’s about the only thing I do like a rivet counter, all my couplers are mounted as close to perfect as possible. (and I go to great lengths to avoid shorts)
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by mbinsewi on Thursday, March 14, 2019 2:17 PM

RR_Mel
Do you have a easy way to align the coupler height?  

I've done a lot of these too, Mel, and I use the back side of the Kadee couple height gauge to see how much shimming I have to do.

Mike.

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Posted by Lone Wolf and Santa Fe on Thursday, March 14, 2019 2:10 PM

Simple solution: Drill the whole all of the way through and then use a nut on the end of the machine screw bolt. I have done this on two blue box locomotives, a GP38 and a SD40-2. It worked perfectly.

Modeling a fictional version of California set in the 1990s Lone Wolf and Santa Fe Railroad
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Posted by RR_Mel on Thursday, March 14, 2019 2:06 PM

doctorwayne

Seems to me to be a lot of fuss over trying to repair something which would better be replaced.

Why not simply cut-off the frame extension meant for coupler mounting?  It's the main reason why all Athearn Blue Box locos had those gaping pilots.

With the metal extensions gone, use successive layers of sheet styrene to build-up a platform which will put the coupler at the proper height, then drill and tap as necessary.  You can then fill-in the rest of the gap in the pilot, and even add a snowplow, if you wish.

This example, on a heavily-modified Athearn U-Boat, isn't the clearest, but I think you'll get the gist of it...



Wayne

 

Wayne
 
I have never liked the Athearn cast metal “tongue” coupler mount.  I think I will redo all of my Athearns, I hate having to remove the couplers to pull the shell.
 
I blew up your picture.
 
 
 
 
Do you have a easy way to align the coupler height?  
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 

 

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Posted by Attuvian on Thursday, March 14, 2019 1:13 PM

doctorwayne

Seems to me to be a lot of fuss over trying to repair something which would better be replaced.

Why not simply cut-off the frame extension meant for coupler mounting?  It's the main reason why all Athearn Blue Box locos had those gaping pilots.

With the metal extensions gone, use successive layers of sheet styrene to build-up a platform which will put the coupler at the proper height, then drill and tap as necessary.  You can then fill-in the rest of the gap in the pilot, and even add a snowplow, if you wish.

Wayne

 
Wayne,
 
Thanks.  Had not thought of that option.  Actually, it's a two-fer when the installation of a plow is considered.  I've had five Details West PL-110 plows patiently awaiting for a few years.  Maybe I should upgrade all my BB Geeps at the same time.
 
This is like a trip to the candy store:  "Gee whiz, Mr. Mattheson, there's so many options it's hard to choose!"
 
 John
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Posted by snjroy on Thursday, March 14, 2019 1:05 PM

I was going to say that doctor Wayne has used another solution for fixing truck mounts with similar issues, which is to drill a hole, and insert a piece of tubing that had been tapped. But I see that the doctor has posted a better solution!

Simon

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Posted by Attuvian on Thursday, March 14, 2019 12:52 PM

Renegade1c

https://www.mcmaster.com/93904a100

Drill it out for a 8-32. Insert the above threaded insert and your in business. We use these at work alot for screw that come in and out of aluminum parts. The steel wears better for threads than aluminum does. 

 

Renegade,

It pushes the limits of the location but it would fit.  I'm presuming that the top wings can be broken off after insertion.

The premier local hardware (non-chain) store may well have something like this.  It's certainly in the running here.

Thanks!

John

 

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Posted by doctorwayne on Thursday, March 14, 2019 12:49 PM

Seems to me to be a lot of fuss over trying to repair something which would better be replaced.

Why not simply cut-off the frame extension meant for coupler mounting?  It's the main reason why all Athearn Blue Box locos had those gaping pilots.

With the metal extensions gone, use successive layers of sheet styrene to build-up a platform which will put the coupler at the proper height, then drill and tap as necessary.  You can then fill-in the rest of the gap in the pilot, and even add a snowplow, if you wish.

This example, on a heavily-modified Athearn U-Boat, isn't the clearest, but I think you'll get the gist of it...



...and the better-looking pilot area....

All of the locomotives shown have BB frames with the coupler mounts replaced as mentioned.  All have closed-in pilots with appropriate details.  All of the body shells are easily removeable from their respective frames, and all of the couplers are removeable for service or replacement.

Wayne

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Posted by Renegade1c on Thursday, March 14, 2019 11:56 AM

https://www.mcmaster.com/93904a100

Drill it out for a 8-32. Insert the above threaded insert and your in business. We use these at work alot for screw that come in and out of aluminum parts. The steel wears better for threads than aluminum does. 

 


Colorado Front Range Railroad: 
http://www.coloradofrontrangerr.com/

flag

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Posted by RR_Mel on Thursday, March 14, 2019 9:33 AM

Attuvian
 
Nice work, Mel.  What do these cars weigh?
 
John
 

I guess you picked up on the #8 Birdshot in the belly.  I remove the Athearn weights to get more “headroom” for my interiors.  The weights take up 3/16” to ¼” of height and that dings the interior floor height.  The BBs in the belly weigh the same as the Athearn weights or about 2 ounces.  I add another 1½ ounces above each truck in the interiors.  Total weight is about 8½ ounces for each car, 72’ streamline and heavyweight car.
 
I pretty much over weight everything, all my locomotives that pull my 3½% grades have been remotored and have added weight (8 to 12 ounces).  Most have at least 5½ ounces of drawbar, no slipping wheels on my layout.
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by Attuvian on Thursday, March 14, 2019 9:01 AM

gmpullman
 Attuvian
do you think that the material in a 4-40 set screw can be drilled out and tapped? 
 

Ouch! That sounds like an exercise in frustration and futility. Even a soft (brass or stainless are soft but they work-harden when trying to drill) set screw would try to spin out when the drill or tap grabs. 

Cheers, Ed

 
Thanks, Ed.  If the set screw was soft enough I was thinking of CAing it in place before drilling and tapping it.
 
If Bear's "bees knees" is indeed unavailable here I will research the Devcon.  BTW, just how long before an epoxy-based filler cures fully?
 
Appreciate your offer of the frame but will pass - at least until I destroy this one in the process!
 
Nice work, Mel.  What do these cars weigh?
 
John
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Posted by RR_Mel on Thursday, March 14, 2019 8:08 AM

I’ve tried filling a couple of the same holes in the Athearn frames using J-B Weld Epoxy and it wouldn’t hold.  My intent was to tap it for 2mm screws but as the tap went in the Epoxy partially crumbled. 
 
It probably would have held but I wasn’t a happy camper.  I drilled the hole out to 5/32” and glued a 2mm nut in the hole using CA.  That was about 5 years ago and they’re still going strong.
 
I got a bit of CA on one of the threads but a 2mm tap cleaned it out easily.
 
 
EDIT:
 
That process works on all kinds of material.  I drill out the holes in Athearn passenger car plastic frames with a 9/64” drill (slightly smaller than the nut) and force it into the hole.  It’s pretty easy, a washer on a screw then tighten the screw and it pulls the nut into the plastic.
 
 
The two holes in the light grey panted area are 2mm nuts pressed into the Athearn floor from the bottom.  I use 2mm flathead screws to hold the interiors in the cars.
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by j. c. on Thursday, March 14, 2019 7:56 AM

this got me to thinking .seemes to me that i kinda rember that locktite has some striped thread product , might want to check it as i remember itmight work for you.. 

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Posted by gmpullman on Thursday, March 14, 2019 3:40 AM

Attuvian
do you think that the material in a 4-40 set screw can be drilled out and tapped? 

Ouch! That sounds like an exercise in frustration and futility. Even a soft (brass or stainless are soft but they work-harden when trying to drill) set screw would try to spin out when the drill or tap grabs.

If you didn't go the helicoil route, the other suggestions about the epoxy would be next in line. There are some metal putty-type fillers out there (Devcon is one) but they are basically epoxy with a powdered metal filler.

Actually, I just took inventory and I have an old PRR Blue-Box SD-7 I'd be glad to send your way. The original couplers were held in with a plastic clip. 

Cheers, Ed

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Posted by Attuvian on Thursday, March 14, 2019 2:31 AM

gmpullman

Hi, John

Back in my working days part of my millwright job was repairing gear boxes and pumps among other things.

We often used "helicoil" thread inserts when a hole was stripped or tapped too large. I wasn't sure how small they went but it appears you can get them down to #2, maybe even smaller.

Good Luck, Ed

 
Ed,
 
Should the helicoil not work out (I thought they were for restoring the useability of the original screw or bolt size), do you think that the material in a 4-40 set screw can be drilled out and tapped?  Perhaps some are not as hard as others.  Hoping your experience as a millwright might have an answer to that possibility.  Thanks!
 
John
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Posted by Attuvian on Thursday, March 14, 2019 2:12 AM

Gidday John,

https://pratleyusa.com/products/pratley-steel-putty-125g

It's the bees knees!!

Cheers, the Bear.Smile

 

 
Howdy, Bear!
 
Is this a "down under" product?  And strong enough to be drilled and tapped?
 
BTW, are the All Blacks ready to go?  Don't know who can touch them, although Wales and England (!) are doing well in the 6 Nations, though the pool there is rather small.  As for the Wallabies, what a mess!
 
John
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Posted by Attuvian on Thursday, March 14, 2019 2:02 AM

Thanks, guys. I think Dave has a good point: start cheap and simple and see what happens. I never tried drilling and tapping hardened epoxy. But if it can be done, that would likely work as I can't imagine a whole lot of shear stress in this application. And good fortune attends my case anyway - because the coupler is on the short hood, front end of an SP loco that is unlikely to ever be MU'd behind something else. If that doesn't work, I'll check out the helicoils at Home Depot or, better yet, a great old-time hardware store here in town that has rows upon rows of magical items.

John

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Posted by "JaBear" on Thursday, March 14, 2019 1:59 AM

Gidday John,

https://pratleyusa.com/products/pratley-steel-putty-125g

It's the bees knees!!

Cheers, the Bear.Smile

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

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Posted by hon30critter on Thursday, March 14, 2019 1:31 AM

Hi John,

If you have some epoxy available (who doesn'tSmile, Wink & Grin) why not try that first. If it turns out that you can't tap the epoxy cleanly all you have to do is run a 4-40 tap back through the hole to get rid of it. I think it would be very important to make sure that there are no oils or other contaminants in the existing hole before applying the epoxy.

As far as strength is concerned, I think the epoxy should be plenty strong enough to handle whatever loads it might experience. It's not like a butt joint that might break under stress. The epoxy is captive inside the frame. It's just acting like a spacer.

My 2 Cents

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by j. c. on Thursday, March 14, 2019 12:58 AM

you could just run a 2.5 .45 mm tap in it and replace screw

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Posted by gmpullman on Thursday, March 14, 2019 12:52 AM

Hi, John

Back in my working days part of my millwright job was repairing gear boxes and pumps among other things.

We often used "helicoil" thread inserts when a hole was stripped or tapped too large. I wasn't sure how small they went but it appears you can get them down to #2, maybe even smaller.

Here is an example of a 4-40 thread insert kit. Home Depot sells these. Maybe you can find another supplier or one of the hardware stores.

https://www.ezlok.com/ezcoil-kit-SK20220

search ebay, too:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-PRECISION-4-40-X-168-Thread-Repair-Insert-Coils-12-Pack-P-N-83104-NOS/153411947976?hash=item23b8108dc8:g:ejkAAOSwDZ9bvOXE:sc:ShippingMethodStandard!44024!US!-1

 

Might be worth a look.

Good Luck, Ed

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