Do both engines stall at the same place on the track?
Are all the engine wheels touching the track?
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
BATMAN Mister Mikado Open up all your boxcar doors. Your trains picked up loads when you weren't looking. THATS IT! There is a 1-ounce gold bar in every boxcar!
Mister Mikado Open up all your boxcar doors. Your trains picked up loads when you weren't looking.
Open up all your boxcar doors. Your trains picked up loads when you weren't looking.
THATS IT!
There is a 1-ounce gold bar in every boxcar!
Wishful thinking........It was probably more like 800 bags of flour on the floor.....LOL
Take Care!
Frank
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
zstripeMy house was built in 1954 and it still moves to a degree......
Yes my 1954-built house keeps relentlessly moving into a higher tax zone ...
I think there are several reasons why a particular locomotive and set of cars can suddenly experience a problem of this sort where they did not for years. It can be seasonal -- more heat and dryness than usual and the underlying roadbed or entire benchwork might be shifting a bit. If spring ever comes it might be interesting to see what a change in season or seasons could bring.
Back when more people had oil heat one would hear of minute amounts of the oily exhaust being in the basement air and causing issues with slight residue on surfaces and according to some, even foam scenery seemingly being attacked.
It also stands to reason that the more a locomotive runs, the smoother and more polished its drivers become (although it is also true that a brass locomotive which has been "run in" a little bit has better traction than new out of the box with the highly polished wheel treads they have). Even rubbery traction tires would smooth out over time. Ditto for the top surfaces of the rails. Indeed actual wear on the rail could cause changes in profile and hence traction.
Over time the side rods start to wear and might have more "slop" which could affect traction but that would be a lot of wear of the sort museum and public display model locomotives would expect to have, not home layout engines unless they are run intensely and constantly.
One issue that used to be more common in the days of fairly crudely cast metal trucks, such as the old Red Ball line, is that there would be actual wear in the bearings over time, with more slop, and seemingly more drag. Way way back they actually would sell inserts for metal trucks - drill out the old bad bearing, slip in the new.
Those more physical issues call for a lot of work to address and they might still not be the cause. I'd wait for a change of seasons before doing anything major. Until then, 'tis a head-scratcher.
Dave Nelson
Ahj, yess, here is a good place for the LION to drop his two cents?
We have this SLYPE that connects the monastery to the refrectory. The Slype is built over an existing tunnel that extends well below the frost line.When the made the pavilion at the 90 degree corner of the two segments, they dug down about ten feet so that this foundation would also be below the frost line.
But guess what, the existing sidewalks are juast six inches deep and the frost can -heave or raise these so that at the moment we have a five inch step up between the slyoe floor and the sidewalk outside. Since this is hidde below the snow, our maintenance man closed the door with a sign "Keep Out" which in itself is odd sinve the other side of the door is out and not in. If you get my drift.
Whale to make a short story long, if the house of ewe is on a slab, the whole thing can move so as ewe wood knot know it. But the locomotives wood. : ) Even BNSF must run shorter trains in the winter time unless they want to put more power on it then ewe kneads.
Now on layout of LION, him had similar problems. Some trains would run fine, while othere who ran fine previously did not do so now. Well ewe must understand that the layout of LION uses reed switches for the signals and automation, and him puts a magnet under one of the cars to trip the switches. The mistake of the LION was to put these powerful magnets on the bottom of the power cars which broke the magnetic fluxes of the motors. Had to move the magnets to elsewhere in the consists.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Bridges, You love 'em even when you hate 'em. Does sound like you're on the right track. Whatever it is pushed things over the limit. It's not much, but it's enough to stall things.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Ok so here is the deal. I originally built the entire run up the hill with spline. A couple of years later I cut a chunk out of the spline and put in a bridge, on a hill, on a curve. The alignment was perfect, no bumps, nothing. So today as I am watching the train slip and slide up the hill I notice it tables on the bridge, no more seamless transition onto/over the bridge. After looking at it for some time either the spline above the bridge has dropped a skinch or the spline below the bridge has popped up. I suspect it is the latter as that would mean the hill has become higher thus making the grade slightly steeper.
Our February natural gas consumption was 40% higher than in past Februarys and we can put that down to the extended much colder than usual weather. The more the furnace runs, the dryer the air gets, the more things start to twist and contort.
I think in a few weeks it will go back to the way it was and if not it will be easy to adjust the spline back down to where it should be. In the meantime it is shorter trains or more power. Starting to look like a union operation.
Oh, I did try the bright boy for the first time ever on the hill and it made no difference. I put my clinometer on a car and I think it is now 0.2% steeper where the trouble starts. That's about four stock cars worth off the 25 (not 22 as I previously stated) car train.
If the 2-10-4 can't get up the grade with 22 cars, can it make it with 20?
If not, with 18?
If not, with 16?
... you get the picture.
mlehmanI'm also a member of the Loyal Order of the BrightBoy. Not afraid of no microscratches..
Ditto here. My layout is 24 years old and I have never witnessed any downside to using a Brightboy. I'm really going to keep an eye on it for the next twenty-four to be sure.
I probably have five or six from different manufacturers. Perfect, Peco, Walthers, Shinohara, Cratex and maybe some others I forgot. Each one has slightly different properties and grit grades. I like the Shinohara one the best.
I rarely have to clean track at all but on seldom used sidings and the staging tracks a few quick swipes with the abrasive block makes things nice and clean.
FYI: Brightboy is a trademark of the Cratex Company.
https://www.cratex.com/Products/Brightboy
Regards, Ed
BRAKIEA bright boy is not evil just the falsehoods about those micro scratches holding dirt that has never been proved.
Larry,
I'm also a member of the Loyal Order of the BrightBoy. Not afraid of no microscratches..
Microscratches may even be beneficial on grades, but I'm not going to argue about it if someone thinks differently.
I'd also say to operate more trains to see what's happening across the spectrum of familiar ops on the line.
My guess would be that it's a single car or two in each train that coincidentally started having friction issues. If both trains were near the limits of the motive power's traction, all it takes is a little bit more to result in wheel spin.
BATMANI cleaned the track four times with alcohol and then twice with lacquer thinner, I also cleaned the wheels three times, all to no avail.
Brent,I would clean the track with a bright boy(yes,a bright boy) in order to remove all that lacquer thinner then retry to run those trains.
You may have sabotage your operations by using so much lacquer thinner that it actually causes the rails to be slick.
A bright boy is not evil just the falsehoods about those micro scratches holding dirt that has never been proved.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
what kind of alcohol are using , is it a new bottle ?
Out here on the West Coast, the humidity level is usually very steady, however, we have had an extended period of almost two months (according to the wife) of very low humidity and cold. This morning I noticed all the hardwood on the floors has shrunk away from the walls leaving a nasty gap next to the door sills. I suspect that grade on my layout has increased as a result of both the house and layout lumber shrinking and causing a tilt.
I have an inclinometer as an app on my phone, I will test later today if I get time, to see if there is a measurable difference. I had to take two of the six cars off the 4-4-0 loco to get it back to going up and over and I will take a few cars off the 2-10-4 to get things going again. I suspect things will return to normal in a month or so until then I will live with it.
Dave, your earthquake idea gave me a chuckle and is not so far off base. A couple of years ago my wife had just painted the kitchen/family room and we had a shake. All the drywall screws on one wall popped, The paint rollers were still in the laundry room, picking all the paint and plaster off the screws to turn them back in and then filling the holes was a pain, she had it all fixed up in time to make dinner.
I also park my locomotives as far from the edge of the layout as I can, you never know. We have had a few things drop off the walls and I have had a few freight cars shake off the rails but that is it so far.
Linn Westcott describes locos loosing traction when he was developing the TAT throttles.
Those throttle included pulses for low speed operation. He said he finally figured out that each pulse spun the wheel briefly causing it to polish the rails causing the loss of traction.
i don't recall how he unpolished the rails.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
I would never replace 45 feet of track unless I were positive that it was the problem.
What happens if you remove one car from each train?
Do either of the locos have a traction tire?
If you put the locos on a perfectly flat surface do all the drivers touch?
I'll add to all of the above, was the track one steady grade? Flat from one end to the other? No little "hills" or bumps and dips? A staightedge on the track will show if any have developed.
Either way, a slight dip, or a slight bump, or hill or a combination of each, one after the other, would cause the OPs problems.
I can't believe it's electrical if the wheels keep spinning. It's obviously getting power.
Mike.
My You Tube
I can;t see how this can be an electrical problem, if the locos stall with their wheels spinning. They are getting power - enough power to overcome the friction between the drivers and the rail. Lack of power would cause the traint o stall with no wheel slip - if there is enough power, the loco pulls the train up the hill, or if the train weight exceeds the adhesion, the wheels spin.
SO either the wheels or rails have become slipperier, or the effective weight of the train has increased - wheel resistance, which seems to be OK, or possible binding due to the track going out of gauge. I'd take an NMRA gauge to all of the track in the area and make sure none has tightened up due to the weather extreme. And along with the wheels on all the cars, don;t forget to check the tender of each loco, while it may be drawbar coupled to the loco, it is still like any other piece of rolling stock pulled behind the loco.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
PruittPruitt wrote the following post 2 minutes ago: It could be that the house has moved a small bit.
I would have to agree with Pruitt.........My house was built in 1954 and it still moves to a degree.......no basements in the area, due to a high water table. Depending on how severe the weather temp. swings are, like last yr. was, I actually can see outside what happens and it is the whole house, not really noticeable by site, unless you actually measure where. My back storm door never hit the awning in the 38yrs. I lived here, until last yr..This yr. it does not hit the awning. In order for it to do that, the whole house would have to raise up slightly........It was driving Me nuts for awhile, because I was the one that built the awning and I thought it was sagging, but It was still as solid as the day it was installed...
It could be that the house has moved a small bit.
Basement floors and concrete slabs can heave a little bit with seasonal changes in the water table, and if you're near the shore, even with the tides! It won't be enough to notice usually, but if your trains were very close to slipping previously, a small change might have increased the grade just enough to take them past the tipping point.
When I worked at Boeing in Philadelphia, the factory by the Delaware River had to do a lot of prep work when building machining cells to ensure that the building motion did not impact the accuracy of the machines. The buildings would actually move or tilt depending on the river's water level! Maybe you've got something similar to that movement going on.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
My money is on an electrical problem, which has gotten almost no attention.
Have you simply put a voltmeter on the rails? Unusually high voltage would point to high resistance in the feed wires or supply. Low voltage suggests a power supply problem or a partial short.
Are the trains drawing more current than normal, suggesting that there is high drag? Or less current, suggesting that there is extra resistance in line? (A bad connection, corrosion, etc.)
When I built my supply, I included volt meter and ammeter. They are my primary diagnostic tools.
Genesee Terminal, freelanced HO in Upstate NY ...hosting Loon Bay Transit Authority and CSX Intermodal. Interchange with CSX (CR)(NYC).
CP/D&H, N scale, somewhere on the Canadian Shield
Hi Brent,
Sorry about my earlier quip about having an earthquake. Couldn't resist.
Seriously, have you tried other engines? Before ripping out the track why not spend a few more minutes seeing if other trains experience the same problem?
Have you tried using an abrasive track cleaner as was suggested?
Did you grab the wrong fluid to clean the track?
There has to be some simple, if not obvious, answer.
I'll stay glued to your thread. That's it! Put some glue on the tracks!!
Sorry, there I go again. You're down and I can't stop kicking.
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
j. c. have you made any change in the house like heater , ac unit , any thing that would change the amount of humity , wife got a new air freshener or any thing like that ?
have you made any change in the house like heater , ac unit , any thing that would change the amount of humity , wife got a new air freshener or any thing like that ?
We have just gone through the coldest February recorded and it has continued up to today being about 10c colder every day than usual. This has made the humidity quite low for quite an extended period. The trainroom is heated the same as the rest of the house and I have not discovered any kinks or speedbumps in the rails. The engines do not get traction anywhere along the entire length of the climb which is extremely puzzling as this has not happened before.
I know temperature can affect the rails, however, it is a constant in that room. The fact that more than one engine experienced the same problem tells me it is a track problem. The temps are supposed to return to normal by the end of the week and that will bring the humidity levels back to where they are supposed to be for the Wet Coast. If things don't improve, I'll change out the track, I have a couple of spare boxes of Walthers track in the office.
gmpullmanThis will be a good mystery to solve, my dear Watson!
My dear Holmes, The fact that two trains have encountered the same problem on the same day raises some suspicion. I took the liberty of (on the shorter train) removing every wheel and using the truck tuner and lubing each wheelset on every one of the six cars behind the 4-4-0. I had both trains running at the same time for a considerable period of time requiring the help of the old 0-5-0 each time they headed into the mighty climb into the Rogers pass.
Every car I tuned raced down the 45' long grade at warp speed under their own weight after I was through with them. I am perplexed as there was no gradual deterioration of traction with either engine and these trains have been the same consist for a number of weeks now.
It is as if someone went in and put a coat of wax on the rails.
You've had an earthquake and your house has tilted!
Manually put each car at the top of the grade and see if it rolls back down. If it doesn't, you'll find the problem easy enough.
Hypothesis 2, the wear and tear has gleamed the rails to the point where they are so shiny and slick there is no traction. I dunno about that either but if so, a bright boy would fix it.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley