I am looking for advice on where to find a value for a brass locomotive that belonged to my father. The locomotive is in a green box labeled United Scale Models C&O "J-3a" 4-8-4. I'm guessing it dates back to the 1960's but I am not sure. There is an envelope in the box labeled Pacific Fast Mail. The locomotive is tarnished but otherwise appears to be in very good condition. It looks like maybe the coupler on the tender was replaced because it is black plastic. I do not know if it runs. It is HO. Any suggestions for where to start would be appreciated. Thanks.
Brasstrains.com has an online price reference and they list that one at $1,095. That is probably mint condition. It was made in 1981. They list a second one for $4,000 made in 1960. One did not sell on ebay, 3 days ago for $1,439 (it was in Japan)
I'm sure a kadee coupler would be preferable to what ever is on there. The tarnish hurts the price. You should know that if it is in direct contact with foam in the box, that can significantly damage the finish.
Running is also important to the price. I gather you must not be a model railroader. There aren't as many train stores as there used to be, but if you live near one they would let you test it on their tracks or if you like to give a general location, maybe one of the forum members could test it for you.
The people who paint these things, deal with the tarnish by sand blasting it. I could imagine all sorts of destruction if I attempted that.
I'll pose a couple questions for the brass guys in the forum: Assuming the OP wants to sell it, is it cost effective to get it professionally painted and decaled, or is it best to just sell it as is, perhaps on consignment at one of the bigger train stores?
How much does tarnish hurt the price?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I didn't think to look what they had for sale. I do not know who or what Crown Toby is, but it's worth a couple thousand.
https://brasstrains.com/Classic/Trains?searchtext=c%26o%20j3a&showsold=True
Pacific Fast Mail brought in Tenshodo, United, and Crown among others. Be aware that "Crown" was the creme de la creme, expensive and collectible even originally, so do not judge brass prices for old United or other brass lines by what Crown has sold for (I seem to recall one rare Crown engine selling for well into five figures and that was a decade or more ago).
Tarnish on old brass kind of comes with the territory- heck back when hobby shops actually sold new brass in inventory (not everything was limited run/advance reservation back then) and it had it on display it was often tarnished. That was back when brass was "raw brass." Over time some lines of brass locomotives came painted in brass color and they obviously did not tarnish!
More serious than tarnish is if the deteriorating foam rubber (in theory the fumes from lubrication or oil is what made the foam rubber turn gunky but I do not know if that is confirmed) packaging has "gunked" onto the surfaces. That is why after a while most brass came wrapped in a sort of Saran Wrap as well.
I wouldn't worry about the coupler at least not in terms of what the engine would bring at auction or on sale. Most brass tenders came drilled and tapped to take Kadee draft gear boxes. And if it has been sitting for years it may run with difficulty - an experienced brass collector would check for hardened grease or oil on the gears before even attempting to throttle the thing up for fear of damaging the motor if the gears have locked tight due to old grease become rock hard (as happens with some early LifeLike Proto2000 diesels by the way).
I certainly would think a large United loco in good shape and in original box and paperwork in a reasonably popular prototype should bring several hundred dollars. $1000? I have no idea. SOme people buy the stuff to collect and some buy it to run because they really want that particular locomotive model. A C&O modeler might be desperate for that engine. Get them bidding against each other and who knows where it all ends up. If you are lucky, happy insanity will prevail! It often does in this hobby.
Dave Nelson
Thanks for all of the replies. The piece has been in a box with tissue paper so no foam rubber worries. I have the ability to put it on a track and see if it runs but have been hesitant to do so. I am not a model railroader and was concerned I could possibly damage it. The envelope in the box is for the plastic coupler so I do not actually have original paperwork or a bill of sale. But I believe the box is original. Also, it appears to be very clean - no oil oozing from it or other crud. Here is a link to some pics.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1KFuiSFX3_yyUc95xY4fvQLiuVKoRGSwF?usp=sharing
Put it on e-bay and cross your fingers. Most brass is not worth what it used to be, in fact many peices can be had for bargin basement prices now, but if two people want it, who knows, it all boils down to luck.
Here's your link:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1KFuiSFX3_yyUc95xY4fvQLiuVKoRGSwF
Nice loco!
Mike.
My You Tube
I noted the engraved United Crown on the back plate of the locomotive. I looked in my old Brown Book and found that 50 pieces were made in 1959-1960 by United/Toby with a cost of $125.00, the estimated value in 1994 for a mint model was $3,300.00
There is an online shop who specializes in United and Tenshodo Crowns, you might contact them regarding value and what to do with the locomotive.
https://www.uncledavesbrass.com/
I hope this helps.
Rick Jesionowski
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
Price has come way down unless mint in box.