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THE BRUTE By Westside Models and Samhongsa

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THE BRUTE By Westside Models and Samhongsa
Posted by SeeYou190 on Tuesday, December 25, 2018 7:56 AM

Does anyone know something about this model by Samhongsa and imported by Westside Models?

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It says it is part of the Freelanced Series, but I have never seen another locomotive in this series. Was this an attempt and a failure? Is it the only one.

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I have been told that it is actually based on a GORRE AND DAPHETID "prototype", but looking at the G&D roster, John Allen never had a 2-10-0.

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Someone else told me it was actually supposed to be a model of a C&O class C12 0-10-0 locomotive, but the maker got some major details wrong, so they added some goofiness and called it a freelanced model.

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I love it.

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What does anyone know about it?

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-Kevin

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Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by BigDaddy on Tuesday, December 25, 2018 8:47 AM

Brasstrains.com sold one, maybe this one, and said there was a review in RMC 8/80

Henry

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Posted by tstage on Tuesday, December 25, 2018 8:50 AM

Kevin,

Given the series and model name, I think I'd lean toward the 2nd hypothesis.

I was watching one of the Brasstrains.com videos a few months ago and a brass manufacturer back in the 70s/80s(?) attempted to sell some of their discards/rejects to recoup some of the cost of manufacturing.  Apparently it was done somewhat tongue 'n cheek and at far less than what the original locomotive would have gone for.  However, they did manage to sell a few as a novelty item.  IIRC, some were pretty hideous looking...

Tom

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Tuesday, December 25, 2018 12:00 PM

tstage
a brass manufacturer attempted to sell some of their discards/rejects to recoup some of the cost of manufacturing. Apparently it was done somewhat tongue 'n cheek and at far less than what the original locomotive would have gone for.

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I know Far East Distributors released a "junk brass" series of models. They were ridiculous looking, but they also had good detail and a unique charm to them.

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I had one of these cabooses with a "too tall" cupola. It was quite a model.

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I wish I knew what happened to it. It disappeared about ten years ago.

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-Kevin

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Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by 7j43k on Tuesday, December 25, 2018 12:28 PM

Until someone can demonstrate a connection between a prototype and this model, I'm inclined to think it's a total freelance fabrication.

Putting air pumps on the side of the smokebox is something I've seen on logging locos.  But I've never seen it done on a mainline steam locomotive of any size.  I just don't see how a maker could get this "wrong".  The positioning is totally unusual for such an engine.  These guys work from data supplied by the importer.  Sure they make errors.  But the pump placement's not an error.

If it was based on an 0-10-0, the drivers look too large to me.  That's a tough call without measuring them, but that's how it looks to me.

 

I think this model is very much an on-purpose freelance loco generated by Westside Models.  Perhaps the manufacturer had some excess frames/drives left over from something, and that prompted the freelance design--that's as far as I'll go down that path.

 

Ed

 

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Posted by tstage on Tuesday, December 25, 2018 1:17 PM

SeeYou190
tstage
a brass manufacturer attempted to sell some of their discards/rejects to recoup some of the cost of manufacturing. Apparently it was done somewhat tongue 'n cheek and at far less than what the original locomotive would have gone for.

I had one of these cabooses with a "too tall" cupola. It was quite a model.

I wish I knew what happened to it. It disappeared about ten years ago.

-Kevin

That may have been the actual outfit, Kevin.  The name sounds about right.

Tom

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Posted by Howard Zane on Tuesday, December 25, 2018 1:34 PM

The Brute was made from overuns of B&O S-1(2-10-2) boilers and B&O U-1 (0-10-0) tenders....quite a clever idea for leftover parts. The front mounted air pumps gave this loco a powerful and rather unique look. John Allen had a 4-10-0 of which only one prototype ever existed. Dick Truesdale, the owner of Westside Models was a believer that the hobby was about limitless imagination.His own model railroad, "The Half Hollow and Huntington" was a very believable mythical layout.

Happy Christmas,

HZ

Howard Zane
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Posted by 7j43k on Tuesday, December 25, 2018 1:35 PM

SeeYou190

I know Far East Distributors released a "junk brass" series of models. They were ridiculous looking, but they also had good detail and a unique charm to them.

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I had one of these cabooses with a "too tall" cupola. It was quite a model.

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I wish I knew what happened to it. It disappeared about ten years ago.

 

 

"Too tall" cupola, indeed.  The above is an accurate model of an SP&S caboose recently imported by North Bank Line.  True, it's a good bit "finer" than the ones brought in by FED (I seem to recall that they MAY have been the very first efforts by Koreans to replace the Japanese in this market).

Below is the FED caboose.

It's interesting that the logging railroads that FED ascribed their caboose models to were working in the environs of the above railroad.  So, it COULD have been an attempt to model (which I wouldn't call a "junk series") an actual logging caboose that was bought from the SP&S, and modified.  Or perhaps copied by a logging company employee who thought the tall cupola a good idea.

 

FED also brought in a pretty nice looking SSW 4-4-2 and more of the inexpensive locos typically ascribed to Ken Kidder.  Very plain 2-6-0's, in particular.

 

Ed

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Posted by 7j43k on Tuesday, December 25, 2018 2:53 PM

Howard Zane

The Brute was made from overuns of B&O S-1(2-10-2) boilers and B&O U-1 (0-10-0) tenders....  

 

Nope.  Turns out they were the B&O U-1 with a not-U-1 tender.

They replaced the air pump with a BL-2 feedwater heater, after taking out the left side injector system.  The put the now dual air pumps on the smoke box sides.  They lowered the headlight to the front of the smokebox, and put the bell in that location.  They extended the pilot for the lead truck.  They installed a different stack.

I don't know where the new tender was from.  It definitely looks shorter than a U-1 tender to me.  I do see they put on a tender booster truck.  Comparatively rare, but way way cool.

All of the above thanks to the Brown Book, which noted the U-1 connection, and Brasstrains, which has photos of the Westside U-1, though they're tough to find and I can't manage to post them here.

 

I am inclined to think that the Brute came out of the possible fact that the U-1's weren't selling that well.  700 were made.  That's a LOT of 0-10-0's for the B&O community to absorb.  The U-1's were made in 1977.  The Brutes came along two years later.  The timing fits pretty well.

Myself, I think the engine would have looked better with a single pump put offset on the smokebox front.  Well, better in a switcher kind of way.

 

Ed

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Posted by oldline1 on Tuesday, December 25, 2018 3:44 PM

Many of the FED brass items were crappy. I painted for a hobby shop in Texarkanna for several years and being in Cotton Belt country with only 2 usable brass engines at the time he sent me many, many.......TOO MANY, of their SSW 4-4-2's. They were junk compared to almost everything I've ever seen. Cheap tyco motors, lousy gear boxes, heavy soldering, crude details and sloppy mechanisms. Making one run took more than a miracle.

They did a decent job with their Spartan Series HOn3 4-4-0 and 2-6-0 engines. Very basic engines but had possibilities. 

The WSM Brute was a factory made engine using Dick Truesdale's ideas. It was the only engine in the series as far as I know. I saw one once and it ran well and was well made. I think they were fairly expensive at the time and being freelance and quite unusual weren't the best sellers. That probably kept the series down to one engine.

Roger Huber

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Posted by MidlandPacific on Tuesday, December 25, 2018 9:20 PM

WSM did a couple of models in their “Freelance series,” and most of them look as if they were assembled out of excess components.  The Brute is a relatively straightforward kitbash of a prototypical 0-10-0, but you can get a better idea of what was probably going on by looking at their HOn3 Garrett, designed to capture the look someone thought an American Beyet-Garratt would have had.  Boiler looks like a D&RGW K-27, as do the two engine frame, cylinder, and driving wheel components.  Rear tender was a D&RGW K-27, lead was an SP half-cylindrical tender; it looks to me like it came from leftovers.

I have heard it said that no two “Brutes” were exactly alike, because of this process.  Other than the Brute and the Garrett, did WSM make any other freelanced engines?

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Posted by OT Dean on Wednesday, December 26, 2018 1:07 AM

7j43k

 

 
SeeYou190

I know Far East Distributors released a "junk brass" series of models. They were ridiculous looking, but they also had good detail and a unique charm to them.

.

I had one of these cabooses with a "too tall" cupola. It was quite a model.

.

I wish I knew what happened to it. It disappeared about ten years ago.

 

 

 

 

"Too tall" cupola, indeed.  The above is an accurate model of an SP&S caboose recently imported by North Bank Line.  True, it's a good bit "finer" than the ones brought in by FED (I seem to recall that they MAY have been the very first efforts by Koreans to replace the Japanese in this market).

Below is the FED caboose.

It's interesting that the logging railroads that FED ascribed their caboose models to were working in the environs of the above railroad.  So, it COULD have been an attempt to model (which I wouldn't call a "junk series") an actual logging caboose that was bought from the SP&S, and modified.  Or perhaps copied by a logging company employee who thought the tall cupola a good idea.

 

FED also brought in a pretty nice looking SSW 4-4-2 and more of the inexpensive locos typically ascribed to Ken Kidder.  Very plain 2-6-0's, in particular.

 

Ed

 

I remember a review of a FED caboose where the reviewer noted that someone in the assembly line had "left a fingerprint on the model, possibly for future identification"!!

Deano

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Wednesday, December 26, 2018 7:13 AM

7j43k

Below is the FED caboose.

 

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That is the caboose I had. Of course mine was painted and decorated for the STRATTON & GILLETTE.

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It would not surprise me if it turns up one day when I am cleaning.

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-Kevin

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Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, December 26, 2018 7:37 AM

That 2-10-0 looks like something C&O would have bought for use in the coal fields. Just look at C&O's massive 0-10-0s.

Larry

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Posted by 7j43k on Wednesday, December 26, 2018 9:45 AM

For some of us, the temptation to do freelance modeling is hard to resist.  I've always loved Alco RSD-5's, but none of the railroads I model had any.  Yikes, what to do?  So far, I've resisted.

But.

Not so in the logging field.  My natural logging railroad would be the one in Klickitat, WA.  They were pretty much a one-Shay railroad.  Which just doesn't work for most model railroaders.  So MY Klickitat is freelance.  And there's a 2-6-6-2T.  Among others.  Just couldn't help myself.

So I can see a modeler buying the Brute for heavy coal hauling.  With that feedwater heater there, it reminds me of a Pennsy I1.  But those compressors would just HAVE to be relocated.  The tender booster would stay!

 

Ed

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Wednesday, December 26, 2018 9:49 AM

7j43k
But those compressors would just HAVE to be relocated.

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The compressors are the only part that reaslly bothers me enough to be a problem.

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If I ever do buy one, they would be relocated for certain. I would love to make it into a 4-10-0 like GORRE & DAPHETID #34, but that would probably never happen.

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-Kevin

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Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by 7j43k on Wednesday, December 26, 2018 10:53 AM

Turning a Brute into a 4-10-0 would certainly be an interesting task.  The words "extensive" and "intimidating" also come to mind. 

 

I found this interesting video on building a "copy" of the John Allen 4-10-0:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeVHeikPvDc

 

Ed

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Wednesday, December 26, 2018 1:53 PM

Ed,

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Thank you for the video link.

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I would certainly support renaming the 4-10-0 from a Mastadon to a John Allen.

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Where is the petition to sign?

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-Kevin

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Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by 7j43k on Wednesday, December 26, 2018 2:03 PM

Only if someone builds a 4-12-0 and calls it a Brontosaurus.

Which might not be that hard, starting with a UP 4-12-2.

 

Ed

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Posted by Great Divide on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 5:36 PM

"""John Allen had a 4-10-0 of which only one prototype ever existed. Dick Truesdale, the owner of Westside Models was a believer that the hobby was about limitless imagination""

 

Howard I finally grabbed one of these.  You have got to be totally correct, there is absolutly NO closer match than Johns famous modified engine #34 W/tender booster to explain this engines origination.  John Allen was an icon to this industries "Icons" and homages to him are all over the place. And rightfully so.   I think I will change the tender coal shuts to resemble Johns but leave the rest as is.  Or if I can find a better donner tender, I'll just take off the booster truck and leave this one in the box...  The rest is close enough.   This engine really is a bit of a Brute. 

I spole with Dick Truesdale back in the later 1990's and asked him about his American Garratt run.  I was confused by it and he was good enough to speak to me about it and other things for a time.  (nice guy to take the time for me like that)  He told me directly he had thought about a Garratt for years and (it is a fact) that WMC must have had about a million slide valve, K-27's done.   He flooded his own market he had so many.  Great engines in every way !  And he also had a large run of the SP narrow gauge, whaleback tenders on hand so the freelance series made another famous work of art in narrow gauge.   I had one of those Garratts when they were brand new.   I later sold it, convincing myself I was a purist...  Today I totally reget it.   That thing was pure unapolgetic fun to have and run.  

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Posted by dknelson on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 6:06 PM

SeeYou190
I know Far East Distributors released a "junk brass" series of models. They were ridiculous looking, but they also had good detail and a unique charm to them. . I had one of these cabooses with a "too tall" cupola. It was quite a model. . I wish I knew what happened to it. It disappeared about ten years ago. . -Kevin

Kevin: Try this link for a photo and discussion of the FED caboose with the too tall cupola.

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/274419/3127366.aspx#3127366

That 2-10-0 has an oddly familiar look to certain elements and I can't say whether it is of the old plastic PEMCO / IHC freelanced steam locomotive, or one of the many things the late Bill Schopp used to write up in Railroad Model Craftsman about his kitbashing of brass steam locomotives (freely moving cabs, pilots, boilers, tenders, pilot and trailing trucks, anything); the projects themselves were prototypical but at the end he'd sometimes show what he did with the leftover parts, which was often freelanced.

There was for a time a sort of gray market in brass rejects.  I can recall seeing a pile of nicely done brass tenders at a train show (a show which more or less toured the country) which were however devoid of rivet detail OR welding seams which suggests that somebody forgot to do something.  I think they were $7 each.  And some years ago I came across a pile of domed observations with fluted sides in nickle silver or silver plated brass, no trucks, no window glass or interior detail, for $20 each.  When I finally tracked down the probable prototype I learned that the manufacturer in Korea or Japan (no box; they came in plastic bags) had gotten the length of the car wrong by a few feet.  

Dave Nelson

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 6:50 PM

Dave, thank you for the link.

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By the way... a "BRUTE" sold on eBay yesterday for $430.00! This is the most I have seen one sell for.

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The last three on Brass Trains have sold for about $350.00 each.

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-Kevin

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Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by NS6770fan on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 10:33 PM

IMHO, that’s one great looking engine! Even if it isnt Based of a prototype, it looks fairly realistic. Looks like a B&O or Pennsy prototype that never made the cut. I would love to add that loco to my roster to add a freelanced railroad!

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Wednesday, August 14, 2019 6:17 AM

NS6770fan
IMHO, that’s one great looking engine! Even if it isnt Based of a prototype,

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It is beautiful to my eye too.

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The only thing I am not sure about are the air pumps on the side of the smokebox. They look like they would make the walkways impassable.

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-Kevin

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Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Monday, August 19, 2019 8:44 AM

Since you mentioned Bill Schopp, he had an article in the first RMC I ever bought on creating a "modern" 4-10-0. I' don't remember the victims, but the end result was a Santa Fe-ish looking beast, looking rather like a mutant 3800 Class 2-10-2. As a matter of fact, that might have been the "donor" of the boiler - being  the right length (both locos had seven axles), but &deity knows what he used for the chassis.

 

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Posted by BRAKIE on Monday, August 19, 2019 9:19 AM

SeeYou190
The only thing I am not sure about are the air pumps on the side of the smokebox. They look like they would make the walkways impassable. . -Kevin

Kevin,I took another look at your engine and I thnk that "Flying pumps" would look much better then where they are mounted now. It's still a beautiful engine.

For those that may not know what "Flying pumps" are those are twin air pumps mounted on the boiler front.

I do not know who coin that name.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Larry

SSRy

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Wednesday, August 21, 2019 11:40 AM

BRAKIE
For those that may not know what "Flying pumps" are those are twin air pumps mounted on the boiler front.

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I never heard them called that, but it is good to know.

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Was there ever an actual locomotive with the air pumps on the side of the smokebox?

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This model is going up in value. Thhis is the most recent one I mentioned that sold for $430.00! That was with foam-damage and a mispelled description.

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-Kevin

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Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by doctorwayne on Wednesday, August 21, 2019 2:50 PM

SeeYou190
...Was there ever an actual locomotive with the air pumps on the side of the smokebox?...

This one

comes pretty-close, but no cee-gar!

Most smokeboxes aren't lagged (insulated), so I'd guess it to be not the best choice.  At least the ones mounted on the front of the smokebox would benefit from some direct airflow.

Wayne

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Posted by dknelson on Wednesday, August 21, 2019 3:13 PM

SeeYou190
Was there ever an actual locomotive with the air pumps on the side of the smokebox?

It must have been rare; Linn Westcott in Kalmbach's Model Railroader Cyclopedia Vol. 1 Steam Locomotives, says the reason the air pumps/compressors were moved to the front of the smokebox (or mounted on the pilot) was to provide better balance: those things were heavy.

I did not find any photo of a large steam locomotive that put the air pumps on the smokebox in the manner of this model, but the MR Cyc does show a Reading 0-6-0 B8a (camelback) with the air pump right where boiler meets smokebox.  Given the wide firebox for anthracite coal and the center cab, there was no other location for it.

Similarly the Reading 2-8-0 Class 110sa also with the wide firebox, but normal cab in rear, has the air pumps at the dividing line between boiler and smokebox, but below the running board.  

A Central of New Jersey 4-6-0 camelback L6s has the air pump mounted above the running board and again, ahead of the cab and right about where boiler meets smokebox.  That seems to  be the closest I find.

My takeaway: on the real railroads as the air pump/compressors got really large the railroads tried many ideas about where to put them, but few if any chose the smokebox side because it did nothing for the balance issues and other options were available, as indeed options are available on this model.  

By the way there were plenty of locomotives with those beetle-browed Elesco feedwater heaters at the front and top of the smokebox that had plenty of large piping that interfered with walking on the running board as much as this freelanced engine's air pumps would have.  

Dave Nelson

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Thursday, August 22, 2019 11:00 AM

I AM SICK!

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Ed just sent me a PM and let me know about this one...

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A brute sold for $50.00 on eBay in July when the seller accepted an offer.

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The word "brute" was not in the title description, so my ebay alerts did not notify me when this one came up for sale.

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I think I am going to cry for about an hour or two.

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-Kevin

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Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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