I'm about to detail some old stock, 50s cabooses, and particularly some Stewart F units. Lots of small hole work with the grabs and lift rings, etc. In the past I seem to have had only modest success with AC. The thin stuff seeps like crazy (even from the back side) but that's an easy fix by using the thicker stuff. What disappoints me most often is that this kind of wire work sometimes comes loose. Anything better out there for this kind of fine-wire detailing?
John
I use '90 second' epoxy, glued to the inside of the car body. I put .030" styrene strips under the outside rungs so that they are spaced evenly, and pull them after the epoxy sets up. The epoxy can be found at Walmart/Hobby Lobby/etc...
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
John,
I like the medium thick/gap-filling CA for metal grabs and lift rings. I also add the CA to the hole rather than to the tip of the metal grab iron itself. And Jim's method of maintaining consistent depth of the metal parts in the drilled holes with spacers is a solid one.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Attuvian I the past I seem to have had only modest success with AC.
Have you tried DC?
I use the same techniques as Jim does, with the styrene strip for a spacer, then I bend over whats sticks through on the inside, and apply a dap of the thick AC glue.
One of my desk lamps has an incandesent 60w bulb that puts out heat. I position it over the model. Helps speed up the drying time.
Mike.
My You Tube
Also an epoxy user, here. If the grabs project on the inside, I put the epoxy there. If they go into a blind hole, I put some epoxy into the hole with a teenier wire, and then insert the grab.
Ed
I modified over a dozen of the LifeLike of Canada Proto1000 boxcars as shown below...
They came with free-standing grabirons done in plastic, and because of that material, were considerably thicker than scale. I removed all of the plastic grabs and sill steps, drilled out, where necessary, the oversize holes to accept styrene rod, and plugged all of the holes with rod about .003"-004" larger than the drilled-out holes.After the solvent cement had evapourated, I re-drilled all of the holes and installed custom-bent (because they were of a non-standard width) grabirons, made from Tichy .0125" phosphor-bronze wire.I used a strip styrene spacer to set the gap between carside and grabirons, then, while pressing the grabs against the spacer, used an old blade in my X-Acto to fold-over the "legs" of the grabirons protruding into the car. I then applied thin ca, directly out of the tube, to those bent-over ends where they passed through the holes on the cars' insides. As long as the drilled hole is close to the size of the wire used (I use a #79 bit - .0145", because I can seemingly break a #80 bit simply by looking at it) and the spacer is not wide enough to touch any of the wires where they enter the car, the ca will be drawn only into the holes, and not out onto the car's side. If the spacer happens to touch any of the wires at those points, the ca will be drawn out onto the exterior of the car and may also cement the spacer to the car.
Here's a different car, showing the bent-over ends...nobody will see them, so no need to waste time trimming them off...
For non-house cars, such as gondolas or hoppers, where the interior will be seen, I use pretty-much the same method, but apply the ca from the exterior of the car. To do so neatly, I put a small puddle of ca on my glass work surface, then, using the tip of an old #11 blade in my X-Acto, dip it into the ca and touch each entry point of the wire into the car's body. In some cases, the ca will flow readily around the wire and into the interface between hole and wire, and sometimes you'll need to touch the opposite side of the same wire to create that flow. If there's any wet ca on the outside surface of the car, quickly and lightly touch it with a tissue or piece of paper towel - don't leave the tissue in contact for more than a fraction of a second, or it will be partially cemented to the car. I use ordinary Krazy Glue, as it's cheap and works as well as any in this application.
(On some cars which I modified some time ago, but want to update, I've found that it's almost impossible to remove the cemented-in grabirons without breaking them, often into three or more pieces.)
Once the glue has hardened (huffing on it from your lungs - rather than simply blowing - will hasten the setting time, as the moisture in your breath acts like a catalyst), I use the same blade to flex the turned-over "legs" of the grabirons on the interior of the car, flicking them back and forth until they break off.
I'm currently working on a number of gondolas built over modified Tichy flatcars, so just happen to have some photos on-hand...
If your installed grabirons look crooked, even though you were very careful laying-out the marks for drilling (I use dividers, as you can set the width and vertical spacing, using the points to make starter holes for the drill bit), don't despair. If your holes were drilled in the proper places, it's likely that the drill bit wasn't perpendicular to the car's side. Here's an example...
...using a small pair of smooth-jawed pliers, simply grasp each grabiron as-shown, then move the pliers up or down as necessary to re-align the horizontal portion of the grabiron...
A couple of tips regarding installation of grabirons...unless your motor tool (Dremel, etc.) is capable of very slow speeds, don't use it for drilling small holes, as the high speed will melt the plastic around the hole, causing it to be larger than needed, and likely large enough that a lot of ca will end-up on the exterior of the car. Instead, use a pin vise.
The old #11 blade, which I mentioned previously, is also useful for cutting the excess length from the "legs" of the grabirons or, if you're bending custom ones from brass or phosphor bronze wire, for cutting each grabiron from the wire stock. Simply place the wire to be cut on a hard surface, then, using the heel of the blade (portion closest to the handle) (and while restraining both the grabiron and excess wire with your free hand), press down firmly, snicking-off the excess or the custom-bent grabiron from the wire.
The use of the old blade as an applicator for ca works well for adding other details, like brake gear on the car's underbody...
The handle and pointy-tip give you lots of reach for those hard-to-get-at-places, and lots of control over where and how much ca is applied.Metal-to-plastic joints is one of the few places I use ca, and in almost all instances, that joint is also a mechanical one...in other words, a mounting pin of some sort in a hole drilled to a suitable size.
Wayne
The latest Rapido Youtube vid from China does show them using a Dremel to open up the holes and dipping the grab irons into CA. Unlike me, they drop the grab iron perfectly into the holes.
Jason makes a big deal about wearing a T shirt in December and being cold, in a part of China that doesn't usually get cold. Everyone of the workers is wearing fleece or a winter coat.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I've done several dozen Stewart F's throughout the years using the Detail Associates detail kits. CA was used on all of them and they hold up very well. I have never had an issue with it running when applied carefully using a toothpick or a small piece of brass wire.
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
Thanks, guys!
maxman Attuvian I the past I seem to have had only modest success with AC. Have you tried DC?
It's pouring down rain in SC and although I am at work, it is a great day to work on trains, will do so in the early A.M.
Recently I had some cabooses that needed grab irons on the ends. The holes were pre-drilled, the grab irons were plastic, finely done though and they looked good, so I made a puddle of Quick CA, put the grab iron in a pair of tweezers and gently dipped the ends of the grab irons in the glue and centered the post of the grab irons over the holes. I slid the grabs into the holes and used the tip of the tweezers to create a space between the grab iron and the car body. It worked great.
Then I decided to install metal grab irons on the other caboose the same way and it worked fine. Yes it takes a steady hand to center the post over the holes but the grab irons, metal or plastic, look good to me. I then painted them the car body matching color and let it dry. Both cabooses are running on the railroad and look finished.
Robert Sylvester
Newberry-Columbia, SC
Attuvian Thanks, guys! maxman Attuvian I the past I seem to have had only modest success with AC. Have you tried DC? Max, Response #1: my son, a rock group expert, says DC was the worst half of the band. Response #2: didn't know that delta-cyanoacrylate was being marketed. I think I made some by mistake in Organic Chemistry lab at Michigan State. Take your pick. John
Response #3 - so THAT's what that switch on the welder is for ...
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Back in the early years of plastic models, and also in the era of the old MR "Kinks" ideas column, I recall someone showed how they drilled the holes in a size too small for the wire grab iron, but then pushed the wire grab in with a soldering iron (or more likely, soldering pencil); in essence melted and re-formed plastic held the grabs. It would take some practice to be sure and may not be worth it in this era of adhesives.
For house cars at least you can cement in an additional thin layer of styrene inside the car where the grabs would go so there is more surface for cements to adhere to other than just the car body itself.
At some train show or another I picked up a chuck that holds small size drill bits and fits into my electric screwdriver. Slow speed so it won't melt plastic like a Dremel but it does go faster than using a pinvise. Plus the screwdriver has a nice LED light that illuminates the work
Dave Nelson
AttuvianIn the past I seem to have had only modest success with AC
You could try DC.
Do you have access to both sides of the work. If so put the grabby thing in the holes, and then glue it from the inside. Duco Cement might work that way.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
dknelson At some train show or another I picked up a chuck that holds small size drill bits and fits into my electric screwdriver. Slow speed so it won't melt plastic like a Dremel but it does go faster than using a pinvise. Plus the screwdriver has a nice LED light that illuminates the work Dave Nelson
I'll have to remember that one,...sounds lika good 'tip'.
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
dknelson...I picked up a chuck that holds small size drill bits and fits into my electric screwdriver. Slow speed so it won't melt plastic like a Dremel but it does go faster than using a pinvise. Plus the screwdriver has a nice LED light that illuminates the work Dave Nelson
My 20 volt Dewalt impact driver works well in the same capacity, using a small chuck that I got from MicroMark. I support the driver, with it partially on its side in the open drawer of the desk which I use as a work bench, then use my free hand to manipulate the item to be drilled. This allows much finer control, both in accuracy and in the amount of pressure applied, than if the work were stationary, and the much-heavier impact driver being manipulated.
I wish I would have had both tools when I did all of those 14 Fowler boxcars, which required 78 holes/car for grabirons, and another 12 for the six sill steps on each. Adding the brake rigging added a few more, too.