Hello All,
The other day I was working at the local model train shop, and I happened to come across an odd engine in our back room. Upon first glance, I knew it was a GG-1 locomotive, and with its immense weight, I thought it was the old Penn Line single or dual drive GG-1 produced back in the day. I had to re-wire the entire thing, as all of its normally fabric insulated wires were completely bare. I finished the re-wiring, and the motor as well as the one headlight worked, but when I went to put it on the rails I found a problem. I had assumed the locomotive was HO scale, but it was far too large dor the gauge, and it didn't work on our S scale track either.
I did some research and found a mostly european gauge, OO, which was right between HO and S, so I figured the locomotive was that (We didn't have OO track, so I couldn't tell). I've tried to find out what company made the engine, but neither me, nor any of my co workers have seen a OO GG-1. Theres absolutely no company markings or identification on the locomotive, and its painted the standard Pensylvania RR brown and gold. I tried looking online for it, but have yet to come up with something in the last week. I was hoping someone on the forums might have a clue what the engine was and its specifics. Sadly I have no photos, and I won't be back in till the weekend, if its still there. If someone could help, it would be much appreciated.
Thanks Much, MM
Mantua ManI had assumed the locomotive was HO scale, but it was far too large dor the gauge, and it didn't work on our S scale track either. I did some research and found a mostly european gauge, OO, which was right between HO and S, so I figured the locomotive was that (We didn't have OO track, so I couldn't tell).
I believe that OO scale track is the same gauge as HO, 16.5mm. It's the scale of the models that run on it that's different. HO is 1:87, while OO is 1:76.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
An outfit by the name of Famoco made a OO GG-1 way back. I'd be doubtful that's what it is though.
In between HO and S scale you would have 1:72 and 1:76, both of which are popular in scale plastic models, but I am unaware of any scale electric trains in either one of those two.
.
It sure sounds unique. I would love some pictures.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Hi, MM
This site mentions an EM or a P4 gauge (18mm or 18.83mm). Seems rather obscure but possible. Do you have a dial caliper to actually read the width between the flanges?
http://www.altonmrg.co.uk/latest/scale-gauge/
"You may hear some enthusiasts talking about “EM” or “P4” or even “American OO” – these are all still 1:76 scale but use different track gauges to more accurately reflect standard gauge (respectively 18mm, 18.83mm and 19mm). All of these are the preserve of experienced modellers as for the time being, at least, you have to be competent in building complex kits or from scratch."
My other thought was American Flyer but from what I recall that was "S" gauge. Perhaps make a posting at Classic Toy Trains forum as well. Maybe someone there has some input?
NittanyLionAn outfit by the name of Famoco made a OO GG-1 way back. I'd be doubtful that's what it is though.
There are several photos of various Famoco GG1s at the "Worthpoint" site, for instance:
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/famoco-ho-scale-gg-unpainted-engine-1114870287
The description mentions it is 3/4" gauge. This could very well be the culprit? Read more here about "American OO":
http://americanoo.blogspot.com/2008/05/famoco-101.html
If you thought all OO was British and 16.5mm gauge, you were incorrect! Welcome to model railroading in American OO, 1/76 scale (4mm: 1 foot), 19mm (3/4 inch) gauge. While primarily produced between 1934 and 1954, these unique models sized about half way between HO (1/87) and S (1/64) scales by Lionel, Scale-Craft, Nason, Famoco, Schorr, Graceline, J-C, Kemtron, Picard, and many others still fascinate collectors and a few dedicated modelers ("retro-modelers") today.
Regards, Ed
OO is still an NMRA recognized scale.
From their standards:
4 mm to the foot (HO is 3.5 mm)
Proportions: 1 : 76.2 (HO is 1 : 87.1)
Track gage: .750" (19 mm) (HO is .650"--16.5 mm)
Years ago, I picked up yet another booklet extolling model railroading. THIS one happened to feature lots of photos of (American) OO scale stuff. I'm looking forward to seeing it again, when I open up some more boxes.
Ed
mlehmanI believe that OO scale track is the same gauge as HO, 16.5mm. It's the scale of the models that run on it that's different. HO is 1:87, while OO is 1:76.
The Brits use OO scale 1:76 on HO track (although there are some Brits who model in OO but with a corrected gauge) but in the USA OO was a reasonably accurate scale with its own gauge. Wider than HO.
I once saw a very interesting caboose at a swap meet but when comparing it to other models nearby I realized I was looking at an OO scale model.
Dave Nelson
dknelsonThe Brits use OO scale 1:76 on HO track (although there are some Brits who model in OO but with a corrected gauge) but in the USA OO was a reasonably accurate scale with its own gauge. Wider than HO. I once saw a very interesting caboose at a swap meet but when comparing it to other models nearby I realized I was looking at an OO scale model.
I remember an article as late as the early 80's about one layout in RMC- but at that point it was a novelty. As I understand what happened the idea of OO in Britain was a compromise- the smaller outline of the British trains would not fit the motors of the day so the HO gauge was retained while the body was sized up. When it came to the US one way corrected the scale resulting in HO and the other way corrected the gauge resulting in OO. Lionel actually made OO for a while. (by the way a similar thing happened with O when it came over from England- our O gauge is off with 5ft gauge) Jim
I suspect that a different term than American OO would be used if such a thing were introduced today. It doesn't make a lot of sense to call something whose scale and gauge both differs from its namesake basically the same term.
That said, American OO was at best a very shortlived niche and any remaining references to it are anachronistic. 1954 was a long time ago. In comparison, what is known today as OO is still in regular production and used by model railroaders around the world.
mlehmanThat said, American OO was at best a very shortlived niche and any remaining references to it are anachronistic.
I think TT gauge fell into this category, too, at least in the U.S.. I seem to recall an outfit trying to breathe some life into TT a while back but I can't say it ever really took off here. IIRC, TT was refered to as TableTop gauge. Still popular in Eastern Europe and maybe Japan?
Suprisingly TT gauge was invented in America by Hal Joyce. (TT meant table top) It was however doomed when N-scale started to come out as it gave a definite size advantage over HO vs a slight one that TT gave. It is interesting that the successful scales are roughly half the size of the next succesful scale IE #1 (or the narrow gauge version G), O, HO, N, and to a lesser extent Z while the intermediete ones that didn't show as much of a size advantage, S, TT and OO. floundered more.
TT seemed to have more success in Europe, especially Eastern Europe. Probably the main reason why (at least that I had seen reported) was limited production of model railroad items in the former Soviet Block. Zeuke/Berliner TT Bahnan now Tilig produced most of the trains and they were TT. Model Railroader ran a couple of reviews/ articles that explained the situation at one point including an article on TT in the July 1993 issue. Perhaps Ulrich might chime in on TT's current popularity in Germany?
Jim
I apologize for the late response to you all, I was unable to work for a week because of scheduling, and when I did, the forums acted up, and wouldn't allow me to log in for some time. Its fixed now, so I suppose it was just a temporary bug.
Moving back to the subject, I took some of the names that were mentioned, and found the GG-1 model to match the schematics of the Famoco 1950's era kit model. I can't say difinitively, as the engine has no identification stamps. Unfortunately, none of my photos are able to be posted, but I found some online which have the same paint scheme, and look similar. Furthering the suggestions, the site claims the engine to be the OO Famoco model, so this is my best bet I assume.
Thanks all for the help, I found the search quite interesting!
Just a touch more background...Marklin was the first company to produce electric trains in different gauges, 1 to 4 with No.1 gauge (what's now commonly referred to as "G gauge") being the smallest. When they added a new smaller scale, it was 0 (zero) gauge, commonly referred to (in the US anyway) as O (like the letter) gauge.
As was mentioned earlier, when someone on the continent (possibly Marklin again) came out with an even smaller "half-o" (HO) gauge, the British manufacturers found they didn't have any motors small enough to fit in correctly scaled UK engines. So they increased the linear scale from 3.5mm/ft. to 4mm/ft - but keeping the same track gauge - and called it "OO" scale. Some people in Britain (and perhaps a handful in the US) have built layouts increasing the track gauge to be the correct size for 4mm=1ft scale, but most are content to run OO trains on HO gauge track.
Lionel in the 1930's made OO scale trains running on HO gauge track - both in two and three rail versions by the way.
In the older magazines they often mentioned "American OO" to differentiate the practive of using the correct track gauge from the typical Brit practice of using HO gauge track with 4mm scale models. That is, as was stated, still listed in the NMRA standards. Most certainly the loco in question is the FAMOCO one, I don;t recall seeing any other GG1 done in OO.
Today there is the ScaleFour Society which primarily focus on British outline trains using the correct gauge for 4mm scale, built to fine scale standards, similar to what Proto:87 and Proto:48 are. There's also a 2mm Scale Association which is a more accurate fine scale version of N scale (kind of). Some of their work is absolutely astounding, especially when you consider how tiny everything is.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
This talk of track gage and scale reminds me of the O gage dilemma:
If you're after a better scale relationship between gage and scale, and you're starting with O gage, do you narrow the track, or "bigger" the trains?
It's certainly a puzzle. With the former, you likely end up with hand laid track. And you've got to narrow all your wheelsets. Some fun!!
Or. You can go bigger. You can keep all the track. And sort of keep all the wheelsets. Except the diameter of the wheels will be slightly off. And EVERYTHING you buy that's 1/4 inch scale will be wrong. Wrong enough to be a problem? Your call.
Do note that regular O gage is alive and healthy. And the other two are still minority.
It's too bad the Brits had to make that nasty decision long ago. For the same reasons as above.
I have long thought that TT was the perfect scale. It is easy to do the scale conversion math becuase 1/10 of an inch equals a foot. Bigger than N, but requires much less real estate than HO.
It really needed a full line of quality components, which it never had in the USA.
I use TT scale trains for terrain when wargaing in 15mm WW2. They are easy to find in appropriate European prototypes, and they do not cost much. They also fit on HOn3 track with just a little bit of tweaking.
Ya O scale/gauge has an interesting history. If you divide out 1-1/4" gauge and 4' 8-1/2" standard gauge, you get 1:45 scale, or 17/64" = 1 foot. A few people did model in that in the early days of the hobby, most notably Minton Cronkhite. It was sometimes called "Q scale".
Otherwise, everyone else chose something simpler. In Britain and Europe, where metric measuring was better known, the went to 7mm = 1 ft., or 1:43.55 scale. That's why there's so many European made automobile models in 1:43 scale. In the US, we went with 1/4" = 1 ft., or 1:48 scale. So our US "O scale" trains are slightly undersized compared to the track, and in Europe they have the opposite problem.
BTW since HO ("Half O") started in Europe, HO scale became half of European O scale's 1:43.55 ratio, so is 1:87.1, or 3.5mm = 1 ft. In the UK as mentioned, the smallest motors available wouldn't fit in UK-style engines, so they used 4mm = 1 ft or "OO" scale, still running on HO gauge track.
I believe 2mm = 1 ft, sometimes called "OOO scale", is half of British OO and runs on N gauge track, resulting again in slightly oversized trains for the track (I think OOO is 1:148, correct N scale is 1:160).