Regarding "Big Time US Railroading In the UK", I have a "roundy roundy" continuous layout that floats my boat, and I am very well, I assure you, Brian.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
bearman Regarding "Big Time US Railroading In the UK", I have a "roundy roundy" continuous layout that floats my boat, and I am very well, I assure you, Brian.
I agee, I like continuous run layouts as well, preferably with hidden thru staging.
True point to point layouts suffer from too much "getting ready" to run trains and not enough running trains.
With hidden staging and continuous loops, trains are always "ready" for the next opps session.
But what do I know?, I am one of those Americans with a big basement to build trains in.........
And the idea of limiting my modeling to what a bunch of other people decide they want to do, not in this life time.
Those guys seem to be doing nice work, and if that kind of operation is good for them, well then good for them.
Guess I am no longer the social type in this hobby, no interest in lugging stuff around either. Invite some guys over, sure - spend hours driving and setting up modules - no thanks.
Sheldon
Sheldon,
you are lucky to be
ATLANTIC CENTRALone of those Americans with a big basement to build trains in
Not everywhere in the world do people have the space and the funds to build big dream layouts. In Europe most model railroaders are quite happy with small layouts or even just a module they can take to a meet.
The fun in model railroading certainly does not correlate to the size of the layout one is able to build. Asided from the Japanese, the British are certainly among the best modellers there are. I´d say that the work of an average British "railway modeller" is far above and beyond what you will see here - but sometimes in spaces unbelievably small.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
Tinplate Toddler Sheldon, you are lucky to be ATLANTIC CENTRAL one of those Americans with a big basement to build trains in Not everywhere in the world do people have the space and the funds to build big dream layouts. In Europe most model railroaders are quite happy with small layouts or even just a module they can take to a meet. The fun in model railroading certainly does not correlate to the size of the layout one is able to build. Asided from the Japanese, the British are certainly among the best modellers there are. I´d say that the work of an average British "railway modeller" is far above and beyond what you will see here - but sometimes in spaces unbelievably small.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL one of those Americans with a big basement to build trains in
This is not about large or small or amount of resources, it is about the condesending ideas that true point to pint is "better" and that the "group" experiance is "better" than the individual layout "owner".
I run my layout as a "point to point" for opps sessions, I just save all that work of restaging trains before and after.
But I also like "display" running.
The article had several very condesending comments about several topics to say the least.
Agreed, I have said size does not make quality or fun - and I have started the discussion of size vs complexity - they are not the same thing.
But if one does have room for staging yards for 25 trains that are 50 cars long, then one needs 1250 cars and 75 locos, and they will make it out of the boxes.
PS - as for the living conditions or the social economics of the UK or Europe vs the US, that's not really a topic for this forum, or one I care to discuss, and maybe not even one for Model Railroader.
We get cautioned on here if we get to far a field of model trains, yet our host has published a story full of subtle digs at us "rich Americans".
Again I submit, at least here in the Mid Atlantic and the Northeast of the US, there are more "basement empires" of 1000 sq ft, or more, than many want to believe.
Not because we are "so rich" but because our life choices and situations allow it.
I am with Sheldon in terms of my original post. There was no need for the author of the MR article to take a gratuitous swipe at modelers who build a "roundy roundy". And, I am not making any judgements about who is the best modeler(s) in the world.
I can’t understand anyone being offended by Brian Moore's article*. He's simply stating his opinion, preferences, and experience. Looks like he and his mates are doing some fine modeling and having fun.
*Oh wait, it’s the MR Forum, now I understand.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Byron, I enjoyed the article until the gratuitous comment about roundy roundy layouts.
bearman Byron, I enjoyed the article until the gratuitous comment about roundy roundy layouts.
I read it as a toss-off -- in fun.
Then we read it differently.
I have a 4’ x 6 1/2’ “roundy roundy” which floats my boat just fine.
Alan
Bubbytrains
cuyamaI read it as a toss-off -- in fun.
Having lived in the UK for quite some time, I can confirm this. British people like to make fun of others, including themselves. Nothing to get upset about - it´s just their sometimes quirky sense of humor!
I smell a case of "offenditis" here, an illness of today´s society.
Sheldon - I wasn´t commenting on any political issues. It´s a known fact that houses in Europe are less spacious and certainly more expensive than your average home in the US. Consider yourself lucky that you don´t have to deal with that. I know that you are - you keep telling it quite often!
cuyama I can’t understand anyone being offended by Brian Moore's article*. He's simply stating his opinion, preferences, and experience. Looks like he and his mates are doing some fine modeling and having fun. *Oh wait, it’s the MR Forum, now I understand.
Byron,
It was a nice article, they are doing great modeling, but it would have been just as good an article without the commentary on modelers with unused "collections" or those with continuous layout schemes.
Additionally, I have nothing against modular layouts, but it's not for me.
Their mainline run is 24', my average train is 18' long........
For one thing I prefer deeper and more diverse scenery........
I will repeat my disinterest in true point to point - too much setup - too little running, unless you are not modeling a mainline, and only modeling industries and switching.
Just my views.......
Tinplate Toddler cuyama I read it as a toss-off -- in fun. Having lived in the UK for quite some time, I can confirm this. British people like to make fun of others, including themselves. Nothing to get upset about - it´s just their sometimes quirky sense of humor! I smell a case of "offenditis" here, an illness of today´s society. Sheldon - I wasn´t commenting on any political issues. It´s a known fact that houses in Europe are less spacious and certainly more expensive than your average home in the US. Consider yourself lucky that you don´t have to deal with that. I know that you are - you keep telling it quite often!
cuyama I read it as a toss-off -- in fun.
I don't really like that word "lucky", I know I have worked hard to have what I have.
I also know that a lot of people here in the US are way more "lucky" than me, and that many are way less "lucky" than me. Some had different opportunities, others made different choices.......
I was not overly "offended" by the article, but I was willing to speak up and agree with the OP becuse I did get that "condesending" tone from some parts of the story.
cuyama bearman Byron, I enjoyed the article until the gratuitous comment about roundy roundy layouts. I read it as a toss-off -- in fun.
Sarcasm and "in good fun" comments don't always transfer well to the written word......
I just read the article, and it did not bother me at all.
.
A lot of the rules for wargames systems that I play are written in the UK, and this comment is very similar to what I read in those.
No big deal.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL cuyama bearman Byron, I enjoyed the article until the gratuitous comment about roundy roundy layouts. I read it as a toss-off -- in fun. Sarcasm and "in good fun" comments don't always transfer well to the written word......
If one is not predisposed to take offense at the slightest possible hint of “provocation“, it shouldn’t even be an issue. That being said, a “roundy-roundy” is quite common in the UK, although most of those are single town with staging/fiddle yards, sometimes with a branch line meandering off from the town. In any case, the large layouts which often appear on the British exhibition circuit and consist of multiple modules, are generally “roundy-roundy” in configuration.
While I have not yet seen the December issue, I’m quite familiar with Brian Moore’s work both from articles and his YouTube videos. What I find remarkable is that someone is complaining about an offhand remark rather than marveling that someone who lives over 6000 miles from the prototype he models is so well versed in the subject matter.
Brian’s home layout is based on the California town of Guadalupe as it was in 1954 (YouTube link below). This is a Brit who has acquired a vast knowledge of the Southern Pacific. It’s kind of staggering that he’s being criticized for what amounts to a rather trivial remark.
Incidentally, engine 2803 in the video below is not brass. It’s a Bachmann 2-8-0 modified to match an SP C-9.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uogm22XUCG4
While you’re at it, you might want to check out Brian’s friend Rob Mallett’s “Lodi Junction”. For a Brit, he does California San Joaquin Valley scenery as if he were a native.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wctQTd3ZEn0
Andre
andrechapelonWhat I find remarkable is that someone is complaining about an offhand remark
Why would you find that remarkable? You've been a member here long enough to know what you're dealing with. What I find remarkable is that all the old folks here haven't been able to grow a little thicker skin.
Guys, I think by now you know I prefer a point to point layout with yards at each end over a loop layout any day if the year.
The reason is simple.
As a teenager I was spoil by operating on Columbus HO Club point to point layout that had a yard on each end.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain bearman Regarding "Big Time US Railroading In the UK", I have a "roundy roundy" continuous layout that floats my boat, and I am very well, I assure you, Brian. For those of us who have not yet seen or read the December issue, can someone quote the offending paragraph to give us some context? Rich
For those of us who have not yet seen or read the December issue, can someone quote the offending paragraph to give us some context?
Rich, for me, there are two comments in the article that have nothing to ad to the modeling being done by these guys. The third paragraph takes this shot before even getting into what they are doing:
"After years in the hobby, it still surprises me that lots of railroad modelers continue to collect a large stash of locomotives, kits, and rolling stock, and then rarely seem to take them out of the boxes. Many don't seem to have access to a layout, big or small, and a common theme is that, one day, they'll do something big. How far that opportunity is in the future is usually a mystery"
Then, near the end of the article:
"Instead of the usual and big "roundy-roundy" continuous layouts that many clubs and individuals continue to build (and if that's what floats your boat, all is well), we've ventured down a different path. Once the bullets were collectively chewed and spat out, our small group acquired a new direction and grasped many opportunities that were previously uncharted or unimagined."
Maybe for them, but point to point is not new, not such a big deal, and in my view, as explained, not any more "prototypical" than my layout and operational concept.
These comments, combined with the the whole point of the article, which seems to be how this group over came their lack of space for home layouts, does seem to take a shot at those with more space, or more resources - why is this necessary?
And again, I would take even a small continuous layout with some sort of staging over a point to point any day for simulating prototype operations - I'm watching the trains, I'm not in the cab of the model, for me it is like watching a stage play.
Actors enter, actors leave.
Your mileage may vary.
It is on page 41 of the Dec issue the beginning of the section entitled "Modular railroading works for us." And I quote "Insted of the usual and big "roundy roundy" continuous layouts that many clubs and individuals continue to build (and if that's what floats your boat, all is well)..."
In fact, I enjoyed the description of the layout. And, having traveled extensively in Greece, I have an understanding that space in a European residence may be at a premium requiring alternative ways of enjoying the hobby. I'm good with that.
Geez, people. Such a silly thread. Go do something productive...me, I have an old motorcycle fuel tank to strip and paint...
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
ATLANTIC CENTRALActors enter, actors leave.
If I may make some observations?
That's one of the beauties of a point to point layout the actors enter the stage do their part and exit the stage.
While a staging yard is good for some types of trains-think solid reefer trains,stack,piggybacks,empty and loaded coal trains -they don't bode well for general freight trains because you are seeing the same cars on the same freight train every operation session...That's one reason I prefer two yards on a point to pointer-break up that repetitive train with the same-o same-o freight cars that is seen every week or monthly operation session.
Everybody's mileage varies on their style of layout..
I just happen to enjoy operating on a single track point to pointer where I need to meet opposing trains in a siding and watching for the block signal to change from red to green so I can proceed on my trip to my away or home terminal..
Not only did I not take offense at the article, I did not even react with a "oh oh, someone isn't going to like THAT remark." Thus I found this thread hard to understand until I saw the comments that followed the initial posting.
I think it is fair and accurate to say that most point-to-point layouts are small, some extremely small, and that most people with a fair amount of room do tend to create layouts that either feature a continuous run as part of normal operations or are capable of a continuous run for layout tours/shows or just end of the day decompression sessions for the owner. I regularly operate on one such layout -- it looks like continuous run but I have never attended an operating session where it works that way. It was just featured in the 2019 Great Model Railroads by the way.
Small layouts that are continuous run exist of course and indeed are pretty much the pattern for MR project layouts. I am sure they provide their share of fun.
Thus a large layout in a space that could accomodate a continuous run layout that by contrast is point to point is unusual enough to be worth remarking on. I read the author as as much justifying the decision as anything else, in an almost self deprecating way. I did not read him to be being snide about it. But I did not approach the article looking for things to annoy me.
Dave Nelson
Bubbytrains .. I was surprised MR didn’t edit that comment to reflect his layout style choice without the condescending tone. I wasn’t “offended,... I shrugged and moved on. I have a 4’ x 6 1/2’ “roundy roundy” which floats my boat just fine. Alan
.. I was surprised MR didn’t edit that comment to reflect his layout style choice without the condescending tone. I wasn’t “offended,... I shrugged and moved on.
We seem to be sharing opinions in this thread that shows our diversity, and that can't help but be good in the long term for the hobby. As you say, it's a shrug and move on moment, so MR's editing it seems to be contraindicated...to me.
Also, what was intended by the term 'roundy round'? Some of us would pause and say, "Well....you know...those typical 4X8 spaghetti bowls." And some of us, not all, would go, "Ah, yes...I see what you mean," because some of us, not all, would studiously avoid cramming a spaghetti bowl of trackage into a small space...just 'cuz.
As I have said so many times in the past, there's a lot of room on a hockey bench. Someone can slide left or right and let another backside onto it. It's the same with our hobby. It's just that some backsides are wider'n others.
And, for the record, as the OP I have no issues with point-to-point layouts, or switching layouts or modular layouts or any of the forementioned with staging, without staging or if there is a bowl of vanilla ice cream topped with chocolate syrup located somewhere on the layout.
dknelson Not only did I not take offense at the article, I did not even react with a "oh oh, someone isn't going to like THAT remark." Thus I found this thread hard to understand until I saw the comments that followed the initial posting. I think it is fair and accurate to say that most point-to-point layouts are small, some extremely small, and that most people with a fair amount of room do tend to create layouts that either feature a continuous run as part of normal operations or are capable of a continuous run for layout tours/shows or just end of the day decompression sessions for the owner. I regularly operate on one such layout -- it looks like continuous run but I have never attended an operating session where it works that way. It was just featured in the 2019 Great Model Railroads by the way. Small layouts that are continuous run exist of course and indeed are pretty much the pattern for MR project layouts. I am sure they provide their share of fun. Thus a large layout in a space that could accomodate a continuous run layout that by contrast is point to point is unusual enough to be worth remarking on. I read the author as as much justifying the decision as anything else, in an almost self deprecating way. I did not read him to be being snide about it. But I did not approach the article looking for things to annoy me. Dave Nelson
Dave,
I think you are on to somthing here, yes rereading, it seems he might have been going to a lot of trouble to justify the choices made.
The roundy roundy comment by itself did not draw my negative attention, but the earlier, seemingly unrelated comments about those with big collections and unfulfilled layout plans had me wondering where he was going with that?
That too may well have been meant to justify the simpler modeling choices related to just building a few modules?
Maybe I did read a little too much into his comments? Maybe he could have been a little more confident in his choices? He did not need to provide justification to me for his choices, he could have just shown me what he did, and let it stand on its own merits.
No question the modeling looks very good. I'm not a modular guy, or a west coast guy, or a modern era guy, no need to explain your choices, just show me your work.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL Actors enter, actors leave. If I may make some observations? That's one of the beauties of a point to point layout the actors enter the stage do their part and exit the stage. While a staging yard is good for some types of trains-think solid reefer trains,stack,piggybacks,empty and loaded coal trains -they don't bode well for general freight trains because you are seeing the same cars on the same freight train every operation session...That's one reason I prefer two yards on a point to pointer-break up that repetitive train with the same-o same-o freight cars that is seen every week or monthly operation session. Everybody's mileage varies on their style of layout.. I just happen to enjoy operating on a single track point to pointer where I need to meet opposing trains in a siding and watching for the block signal to change from red to green so I can proceed on my trip to my away or home terminal..
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Actors enter, actors leave.
Larry, we have been down this road before. In my operating scheme, most general freight trains come into the visable yard, and are broken up and sent out to industries on the industrial belt line.
So the same freight trains do not just keep appearing and re-appearing.
So the layout provides both the big time mainline operation and lots of ISL type switching.......
And thru staging still limits the amount of setup for the next session, as well as limiting the amount of 0-5-0 handling of equipment.
Single track - again - single track and long trains requires a LOT of space to look/feel believeable. I hate it when the distance between sidings is only a few train lenghts at best. Double track solves that problem.
I run 30 to 50 car trains....
ATLANTIC CENTRALthe earlier, seemingly unrelated comments about those with big collections and unfulfilled layout plans had me wondering where he was going with that?
That is a European and Japanese thing much more than something in North America.
There are massive numbers of people that buy items from Kato and Marklin, then never run them. They all intend to someday, but they never do.
There used to be a lot of this with brass in North America. I am enjoying that now. I have bought many 30 year old brass models that never had any current pass through the motor windings.
I don't understand the "buy and hold" mentality of European hobbiests. This behaviour goes well beyond model trains.
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL the earlier, seemingly unrelated comments about those with big collections and unfulfilled layout plans had me wondering where he was going with that? . That is a European and Japanese thing much more than something in North America. . There are massive numbers of people that buy items from Kato and Marklin, then never run them. They all intend to someday, but they never do. . There used to be a lot of this with brass in North America. I am enjoying that now. I have bought many 30 year old brass models that never had any current pass through the motor windings. . I don't understand the "buy and hold" mentality of European hobbiests. This behaviour goes well beyond model trains. . -Kevin .
ATLANTIC CENTRAL the earlier, seemingly unrelated comments about those with big collections and unfulfilled layout plans had me wondering where he was going with that?
Interesting. Personally, I only buy what fits the layout theme, and I have never changed era, scale, local or theme since settling on the current one about 30 years ago.
So I have never sold off any great number of items. Sure, a few things here and there that I changed my mind about, but basically I have 98% of the model trains I have ever bought - since 1968........
I don't buy anything "just because" I like it, or it is famous, etc, etc, it must have a purpose on the layout.....
Guess I'm not like most people.......