So I have a bunch of old tyco freight cars from when I was a kid (actually thats all I have as I'm getting back into the hobby :-). Anyway I notice the lighter ones (flatcars, tankers) derail alot compared to the heavier ones (box cars). And I'm not talking about wheels falling off poorly connected track. I mean more like they're being pulled off going around turns (24" radius) and such.
It this is thing or just me?
Rolling stock - particular flat cars - need to be weighted to track properly. You can always add weight on the underside of the car. Here's a few solutions:
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Lighter cars don't derail because they're light.
They derail because they're surrounded by heavy stuff.
I used to run a string of about 5 Superliners with absolutely no metal weights. Just the plastic body, floor, etc. Didn't derail.
Put a bunch of heavy cars behind them, and go through a 24" curve = flop-bot.
An experiment for the OP: we know the light cars derail. Try putting them all at the back of the train and see if it's still doing it.
All that said, your cars should all weigh approximately the same. Light. Heavy. In the middle. So, yeah, you should weight the light ones to match the heavier ones.
The National Model Railroad Association recommends, for HO, a weight of 1 ounce plus a half ounce for each inch of length. Not an unreasonable weight.
Ed
The big fellows have the same problem sometimes.
I recall a Trains Magazine photo spread where a photographer caught a sequence of shots of Trailer-Train flats (empty) derailing at Horseshoe Curve. It was back in the Penn-Central days.
I think the term is "string-lining". Liken it to pulling (or pushing?) a length of string.
Regards, Ed
And the real railroads have rules about placing light cars at the head of the train to prevent the above.
Ed (other)
7j43k And the real railroads have rules about placing light cars at the head of the train to prevent the above. Ed (other)
I agree with you there — Just think of the dynamics of the degree of curvature, super-elevation, the grade and two or more "Snappers" (helpers) shoving hard on the rear end and — wow!
As I recall, there was a "misstep" in placing at least a dozen, maybe more, 86 foot Trailer Train empties all in a group within that train. I'd sure like to read the investigation into that derailment. Maybe someone remembers which issue of Trains that was?
Cheers! Ed
Penn Central...ie "youre crazy or doing something wrong" types.
We are, too. It's just that we're more experienced.
So OUR crazy gets real specific and detailed.
And OUR something wrong is so specialized that most other people couldn't tell.
Don't worry. If you persevere, you'll be right up there with the rest of us.
7j43kLighter cars don't derail because they're light. They derail because they're surrounded by heavy stuff.
Absolutely, which is why consistent weighting is so important whether or not you follow NMRA weight standards, although some cars are SO light - I am thinking of the old 1950s Varney plastic flatcar and ore cars that were pure plastic without a bit of weight anywhere that would derail if you batted an eyelash when they went by.
Mixing body mounted with truck mounted couplers can result in sideways pressures that can lead to, or at least encourage, derailments, especially if the old hornhook couplers have springs that are so taut as to not let the coupler move in the draft gear box.
Cheap trainset cars sometimes have poorly formed wheels and axles that make derailments more likely. Couplers with very tight springs such as some trainset cars have can also make derailments more likely.
Dave Nelson
Penn CentralPS - should've mentioned these are all horn-hook couplers if that makes a difference. from the sounds of it above it may not.
It does make some difference. Those couplers, because of their design, have a sideways force at each end of the car. "Regular" couplers (Kadees and all their clones) don't.
Whether that sideways force is causing or contributing to the problem is a good question. But if/when you change to the good stuff, it surely won't.
gmpullmanAs I recall, there was a "misstep" in placing at least a dozen, maybe more, 86 foot Trailer Train empties all in a group within that train. I'd sure like to read the investigation into that derailment. Maybe someone remembers which issue of Trains that was? Cheers! Ed
Ed,I see a lot of empties behind the engine(including bulkhead and well cars) on various live web cams so that may not be the real cause of stringlining and recall every manifest train is preblock.
A heavy hand on the throttle might be the cause.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
7j43kWhether that sideways force is causing or contributing to the problem is a good question. But if/when you change to the good stuff, it surely won't. Ed
Truck mounted X2F couplers was never a good idea from the get go.
When properly body mounted the X2F worked quite well---in fact they work better then some of the KD clones does today.
Body mounted X2f's may well work better than some other couplers. In some ways.
But I was talking about the innate sideways force generated by their design. Which other couplers don't have.
I almost never have derailments. "Brakie", who I have not seen in a while, claims to never have derailments.
.
It is a package deal, and weight is just one factor.
You need good track, good wheels, good trucks, properly weighted cars, properly adjusted couplers, etc.
Your old Tyco cars are going to fail on every item above. If you are determined to run them, they need weight, wheels, trucks, and couplers all serviced with replacements.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190 "Brakie", who I have not seen in a while, claims to never have derailments. .
Kevin,You haven't seen me because I was in hospital and then a nursing home for extended care.
A great embarrassment for me is derailments so,every car is inspected and KD couplers are checked for proper height and smooth operation. I also take care during track laying to ensure smooth track work.
I also add 3/4 of a ounce of stick on weight over the trucks.
BRAKIEYou haven't seen me because I was in hospital and then a nursing home for extended care
I am glad to see you back, and I truly hope that you are doing better.
Take care of yourself.
-Kevin.
Welcome back, Brakie! Good to hear you're back at home.
I agree with Dave, consistency is most important. The NMRA weighting requirements came from a different era, where cars were often either very light wood or cardstock or they were cast metal or brass. The standard was an attempt to come up with a viable means of getting fairly consistent weighting through the train.
In HOn3, many modelers adopt a lower weight, but still try to stay consistent. I wieghted my first 3000-series boxcar to the NMRA standard - and never did it again, even before I learned that my reaction was quite common among narrowgaugers {this was pre-internet and there's no one else around here who was a NGer.) Otherwise our relatively puny locos would not be able to climb realistic grades with prototypical length trains. Most of the time, this is with a single steam loco. Standard gauge tends to use a lot more diesel and thus, MUing, so this really isn't a problem for SG.
As for prototypical car placement requirements, the need was often limited to specific lines where the combination of grade and curvature made string-lining more of an issue. There's always a cost to such operational restrictions, so they weren't always applied throughout a RR's track mileage.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Penn Central should've mentioned these are all horn-hook couplers if that makes a difference.
The problem with horn hook couplers is not the coupler, it is the fact that it is mounted on the truck instead of the body. This means that the coupler controls the truck kind of like a rudder. This has the biggest affect while being pushed. With body mounted couplers the trucks are free to follow the track. I still use several of my old Tyco cars without any problems because I have removed the couplers from the trucks by cutting them off with wire cutters. I then body mount a Kadee #5 coupler using a small piece of styrene as a spacer so the coupler is the proper height compared to the Kadee coupler height gauge. And of course follow the rule: empties in the rear, fully loaded cars in the front. I also run trains that are fairly short because my layout isn’t giant and because you can only really see for first several cars anyway. A train that is ten or fifteen cars long is just as much fun as a train that is 100 cars long. Plus less wheels means less wheels to derail.
Lone Wolf and Santa FeThe problem with horn hook couplers is not the coupler, it is the fact that it is mounted on the truck instead of the body.
The other big problem with HornHook/X2F couplers is that the spring pulls the coupler to the side. This put sideways force on the freight car which transfers to the truck. This causes the flange to ride on the inside of the rail and will help the flange pick in points, frogs, and rail joints.
If the HornHook/X2F would have had a CENTERING spring, like Kade uses, that would have made it much better.
Aside from being so doggoned ugly, I think the HornHook/X2F is a good coupler design with quite a few benefits. It is nearly immune to uncoupling from grade changes. It is very forgiving for coupler off-center when coupling. It even couples better on curves than Kadee does.
It was eclipsed by the superiority of the Kadee design before it had a chance to evolve, but I do not think it deserves the "total junk" reputation it has received.
One thing you may eventually do which will help is replace plastic wheelsets with metal ones. This will add a bit of weight and lower the car's center of gravity, helping to keep it on the tracks. Properly tuned up, you'll get less rolling friction, another plus.
When I came back to the hobby after a 40-year hiatus, I too had old cars with horn-hooks, not enough weight and plastic wheelsets. I've got almost all upgraded to modern standards now. It's nice to see these old childhood friends running again.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
The barely-visible flatcar trailing the fourth locomotive in the photo below has another 70 cars behind it...
...but no troubles with derailments because...
....it weighs 5oz.
I've seen quite a few steam-era photos where the first car or two behind the locomotive are flatcars or empty gondolas, so there's no reason we modellers can't do the same (as long as those types of cars have some heft to them).
Wayne
doctorwayneI've seen quite a few steam-era photos where the first car or two behind the locomotive are flatcars or empty gondolas,
I suspect that the engineers were pretty easy on the throttle in the curves!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
As others have mentioned, light or heavy isn't really too big of a deal, until you mix the two together.
I have a set (6) of really old Athearn BlueBox (BB) coal hoppers that are best described as featherweights. (Not even 1/3 of NMRA recommended weight!) Other than the (replaced) wheels and the KD couplers, they are 100% styrene.
By themselves, they track beautifully, but if I mix them in with coal hoppers that can be classified as welterweight or higher, they jump off quicker than a jackrabbit in a barrel of rattlesnakes!
If I run them behind all the other coal hoppers in a long train, with nothing behind them, they again track very well, and only derailed when it was due to operator error.
So, the trick is in how you make up your train, heavy cars go in the front, with welterweights in the middle, featherweight cars in the back. (Or, if you have enough, a train of nothing but featherweigh" cars.)
Or, in the case of hoppers, boxcars, or gons, you can easily hide weights in them, to give them enough heft to rumble with the welterweight guys, without getting knocked out in 3 seconds flat.
Flat cars and solid tank cars are a bit more tough to change weight on, but can be done with some ingenious methods.
And, as has been said, excellent trackwork, and smooth train handling are also a must.
So, featherweight cars in of themselves do not derail more than heavyweight cars do, they just take some more careful planning.
(Side notes - WELCOME BACK BRAKIE!!! And, humor in the post was deliberate, as derailing cars need to be dealt with somewhat humorously, otherwise it gets way too frustrating!)
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
ricktrains4824And, humor in the post was deliberate, as derailing cars need to be dealt with somewhat humorously, otherwise it gets way too frustrating!)
As far as humor..I was a member of a club back in the late 90s that had a member that was three to four times more fussier then I am when it comes to faulty equipment .
I loosen the truck screws on one of his cars just enough to make the car rock as it rolled along..
It took him days to figure out how both truck screws came loose.
Harmless practical jokes came with club membership.
I run a fair amount of cheap tyco, lifelike, and other rolling stock. Most of it has been swapped to kadees but even there I've kept alot of the talgo mounts and just used kadee 212 adaptors to keep the kadee couplers in place.
My observation is that weight does matter, even in a consist of just lightweight cars. There's a bit shimy and vibration with lightweight cars that weight cuts down on considerably. Luckily adding weight is one of the easiset things you can do. Pennies, nickels, fishing weights, nuts, bullets or whtaever are all quite cheap and with a kitchen scale it's easy to get it right.
One thing I will add is that even the basic plastic wheels with metal axles that used to be standard in kits are usually a pretty major upgrade from the one-piece plastic wheels on Tyco, especially when you gauge the trucks with a truck tuner. I've been given alot of metal axles plastic wheelsets -and while of course it's not as great as new trucks and all-metal wheelsets- with my truck tuner I've seen big improvements with minimal $ outlay.
As for Horn Hook couplers, I change them out for kadees for aesthetics and ease of uncoupling. For running and staying together they work just fine.
Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad for Chicago Trainspotting and Budget Model Railroading.
EilifMost of it has been swapped to kadees but even there I've kept alot of the talgo mounts and just used kadee 212 adaptors to keep the kadee couplers in place.
When using the Kadee 212 adapter, how does coupler height turn out with Tyco trucks. It seems to me the only way to adjust it would be to change wheel size.
Is this ever an issue?
Wow, went away for a few days and come back to all of these responses. LOL. Ok I'm learning alot here. Until yesterday All of the rolling stock I owned was my old tyco stuff from 40 years ago. And the dozen or so cars I've been running - besides the light tankers - have been great. very few derailments. Pretty much all sturdy box cars and all with truck mounted horn hook couplers.
So yesterday on a trip to the model train store with my two young boys we purchased our first passenger cars. A used set of 4 santa fe cars. They have knuckle style connectors (not sure if kadee).
And boy are they fussy. So many derailments that its turned out to be a blessing in disguise. As a result I'm now finding all of the issues in my new layout. To your point uneven track height, gaps, anything and everything derails these suckers. But each time I find one I analyze and have been fixing them one by one. Less derailments.
So in the end this is good to test my new layout and get it ready for the holidays.
Kevin,
I don't think coupler height is going to be an issue unless a truck is seriously warped. Say what you will about talgos, but the one thing they do give is consistent proper coupler height.
If the height was off, you could adjust slightly by shimming the inside of the talgo coupler box, but there's not much room to adjust there. However, it's likely such an uncommon issue that if the issue did arise I'd probably just swap in a different talgo truck (they're not exactly expensive or rare) or body mount the coupler.
It seems that regardless of the type of car, being lighter than NRMA standards creates issues. Toe avoid problems, weigh the cars with a kitchen scale. One thing that I do for weights is us fishing lures attached with CA, or liquid nails. To minimize their appearance, I squeeze them with pliers.
kasskaboose One thing that I do for weights is us fishing lures attached with CA, or liquid nails. To minimize their appearance, I squeeze them with pliers.
I was just doing this yesterday evening. Even for a box car where they are completely hidden I will squeeze them with my huge pliers (or a hammer) so as to give them a larger flat area for the glue to hold them in place.