Is the internet killing our hobby shops?

[Anonymous]

From the above and from some general observations it appears not everyone who owns a LHS is really a business man. Many of them don't get it. By the same token, the guys who rant and rave and buy in online will complain when there's no local shop to help them figure out why the stuff doesn't work like it should. I lived in a rural area without access to a LHS for 20 years. I moved to an area where there was ONE LHS. I always gave him the first shot and he always took care of me. I now live where there are THREE LHSs within easy distance. I patronize them first, I ocassionally order from my friend who had the one shop nearby(mentioned above)and he STILL takes care of me. Once in a while I will buy on line or on ebay but usually I give the guy who I can look in eye the first shot. If he can't get it, well then it's another story entirely.

[BRAKIE]

One thing I have noticed..Hobby shops that offer discounts fair far better then full price hobby shops.5 out of the 7 hobby shops I go to offer discounts from 10%-15%. Now with that said I still prefer to buy my cars and other items from one of the discounters.That does not mean I will not preorder a locomotive that I want from Atlas..IMHO better safe then sorry especially when it comes to C&O locomotives.[;)]
At one shop every Saturday morning we have a gathering of the faithful and have a open discussion on the hobby,discuss our newest projects while enjoying cups of coffee provide by the shop's owner..You can't do that on line.
Of course we usually buy something while we are there..[:D]
Now,IMHO a hobby shop can and will survive if they offer discounts..The full price hobby shop owners just hasn't figured that part out yet and wonder why they keep losing customers to their competitors including the Internet..
I shop the Internet as needed but like I said my cars,some locomotives and other items will come from one of the five discount hobby shops I visit..Now in rare cases I will buy from a full price shop IF and only IF I can't find the item any place else.

[grayfox1119]

Bob, I too buy from Tony's when I purchase via enet. I also visited Tony's this Fall, 275 mile ride from central Massachusetts, but the Fall scenery through Western Mass and up through Vermont is second to none and worth the drive for me and the wife. Tony and his staff were great, showed me how to operate the new DCC equipment and other stuff I bought, so they are doing things right in my book, they go to train shows, they have a great enet site, and have a staff that knows what they are talking about, they KNOW THE PRODUCTS THEY SELL, end of story!!

grayfox1119

[Anonymous]

If I were to venture into the hobby business, it would be internet first, then as cash flow allowed, brick and mortar. The fact that Horizon is attempting to control their market for Athearn tends to tick me off significantly. By exclusion of service to dealers who discount, are they not involved in restraint of trade or even price fixing? I know, its a stretch.

The market will make itself felt through sales and it could be a good thing for Atlas, Kato, et al.

[pastorbob]

Kansas City has some good train shops, including two fairly new ones, both doing well.
I don't shop internet as much as some, I don't trust people with my personal information that much. I have a couple of internet locations I buy from on a regular basis, such as Tony's Trains, because they have earned a trust level with me. Otherwise, the shops in KC do discount and I still prefer to see before I buy.

Bob Miller

[aloco]

The thing that keeps me away from the local hobby shop is that it is not staffed by any model railroaders. They can order stuff for me, but after three weeks of waiting I'll go back to see if my stuff came in and they tell me it's back ordered. And over the years I've come to learn that the phrase 'back order' means 'we can't get it'. So if I really want something bad I'll surf the net. Where I live, it's the only way to shop for model railroad equipment.

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lehigh Valley Railroad

Short answer; yes.

Good answer!

This subject often comes up and the replies have always followed the same track. Some lament the internet stores while others embrace them.

The bottom line is that the internet stores are here to stay - like it or not. As an LHS, you either find a way to adapt or board up the store. It's cold and heartless, but that's "Business 101".

[grayfox1119]

The only way that small town HS will survive, is if they have enough hobbiest living within a "driveable" radius, and will support the store sufficiently enough that the owner can make a descent living. Like Kyle stated above, we really do need these local shops, I love to browse a shop, and I always buy "something" that I need or want. Then there is the shop-talk, even a coffee at some stores. Sometimes I wish I could win the lottery, I would open a HS and make it a place that people would love to come into. Being a millionaire (win the lottery first) I would only have to make ends meet, that would be great for me and for all the local customers......what a pipe dream right guys?
There is one shop that does come close to this, it is Hartmann's up in Intervale, New Hampshire. Roger has a huge store, well stocked, he has a train museum in a huge new building adjacent to the store in which he has every guage of train set up in multiple displays, you can operate each one. He also has a coffee shop, AND, an operating riding train for your kids while you shop to your hearts content. Hartmann's is in the White Mountains of NH, about 20 miles south of Mount Washington ( highest peak in the Northeast, home of the Cog Railway).
grayfox1119

[ksax73]

I surely hope not. I think for hobby shops to survive, more need to do mail order type business. I know one shop in the Manhattan that you can order from and they charge for less for someone ordering a product that has to be shipped as opposed to someone going into the store and buying the item off the shelf. Even so the prices are still reasonably discounted. Not like a trainworld/trainland but typical of a good hobby dealer.

I hate to see hobby shops to disappear. Most of the time when you order online, people you deal with often don't know what they're selling and therefore can't provide you with usefull information. I personally am someone who needs to look over and inspect models before I buy it unless I have good photos before hand and already know what I'm getting.

You also need the hobby shops there for those small things you might need when you're building a layout or something. Who wants to work on a yard and realize they're missing a particular track piece and then wait like 2 to 3 weeks for a internet dealer like internettrains to ship a piece of track for 8 dollars shipping. That's a setback for layout construction and that's a major pet peeve of mine.

Hobby shops are also a great place to meet others interested in trains and forge friendships. I've met a fellow Amtrak modeler and I can say that in less than one year that we've known each other, our modeling has benefitted from sharing information and ideas. We are even working on AEM7 rebuilds simultaneously to do the best possible job we can. He has connections as do I for finding certain materials or what have you for the project. As a matter of fact, we meet at the Hobby Shop during the week for whatever.

We need the hobby shops and I would urge all modelers to support your local hobby shop. You don't have to get EVERYTHING from there, but if you need a track piece here or there or detail parts, manuals, books, tools go to your local hobby shop. You'll also find that when you are a frequent visitor and you establish a relationship with the owner(s), you'll start to notice that they'll show their appreciation from time to time whether its rounding down the price a few bucks or something. Granted not all hobby shop owners do it but the ones that I patronize(ed) have done that on a number of occasions.

Well that's my 2 cents, lol.

[Anonymous]

Will there be less LHS's in the future because of the net? Yup. Will the traditional small town LHS go away? Probably. Will LHS's totally disappear? Nope - they just won't be as "local" as they used to be.

When I was in Dallas I went to Discount Trains (I think its called). It is, for all intents and purposes, a LHS. The place had a good amount of customers, all were buying stuff , the prices good, the stock outstanding, the building well lit, very clean and the staff seemed very very knowledgable, totally friendly (smiles everywhere - even the teenaged employees were very courteous). The workers there obviously knew several of the customers by name. My fiance and I spend nearly two hours just wandering around looking at everything (much more enjoyable when you can see stuff, not just look at pics on the net) and I ended up spending quite a bit more than I was planning to (we had just stopped by because I saw their listing on MRR and "wanted just to look"). This place will survive the internet. It would be interesting to see what it could become if it decides to join M.B. Klien and Caboose Hobbies in having an internet site to sell from also.

The LHS will not totally go away - just transform.

[SteelMonsters]

Getting items 40-50% off MSRP isn't impossible. I can easily get 25-30% off my local hobby shop's price, in my hands, by doing a little bit of shopping online.

I have a limited budget. I can either get more by shopping around or less by limited myself to local hobby shops. In the long run, it turns out to be a huge amount saved. Can't really say that I'm blinded by the internet. For instance, I don't order pizza online. I can get better prices via coupons than the regular prices that are online.

Most people resist change, the problem is it's inevitable. As every other change tha happens, If hobby shops don't/can't/won't compete with online competition, they won't last. If the world goes into another ice age and humans can't adapt to the changes, extinct. I don't care how cruel it may seem to some people, it called life.

[Bob Hayes]

My "LHS" is 90 miles away, so the internet is my only choice. If I still lived in So. Cal. it would be a different story, and when I get down there I generally stop in at San-Val for G gauge and All Aboard Model Railroad Emporium for HO. For O scale, it's O Scale West and maybe the Whistle Stop. And BTW, Walmart is not the cheapest place in town. If you price compare with other stores in your town, you may find the other stores are cheaper. Just remember, a store that's always "rolling back prices" must have had their prices too high to start with, which is why I very seldom shop at Walmart.
Bob Hayes

[Roadtrp]

The future of this hobby DEPENDS on the internet. Younger people shop the internet far more than we do and they are the future of this hobby (if it has one).

You also have to consider the HUGE impact sites like this one have. How many people would have started the hobby, run into a problem, and given up if they didn't have easy access to a site like this? Sure, you could ask questions at your LHS. And if they've taught that 19-year-old kid anything other than how to run the register they could possibly even help you. But it is a lot less threatening to ask a 'dumb question' when you have the anonymity of the net.

I think that overall the internet has helped the LHS more than it has hurt it. Sure, I buy all my locomotives online. But I pretty much buy EVERYTHING else at my LHS. The internet keeps my interest high through forums like these, keeps my major purchases affordable, and gives me ready access to information when I need it. How could it not be good for the LHS? Hobby shops that are folding basically deserve to fold. If they could adapt to today's climate they would prosper.

Barnes & Noble is a great example. I shopped several BN stores for Christmas trying to find books I wanted to buy for gifts. I was able to find most at local BN stores, but for a few I had to go to the BN website. The first thing I found was that books at the BN website cost a LOT LESS than books at the BN stores. Also, their stock was infinitely better than what was available locally. I was very happy. All the items I had been unable to find locally I found on the net, and I saved money to boot.

I guess I'll always shop BN's website in the future, huh?

Nope. And that is why BN retailers survive. Every time I go to one of their stores they are mobbed. Why, when you could get better prices at BN's own website?

Because BN stores make shopping a pleasure rather than a chore. Beautifully laid out stores, knowledgeable staff, comfortable sofas and chairs where you can read books before you purchase them. Coffee from a Starbucks available within the store. Shopping at a BN store is not about buying a book. It is about having a very enjoyable experience WHILE buying a book.

Barnes and Noble was able to figure it out. If the LHS can't... tough luck.

[Anonymous]

This is an age old issue. My great grandfather was appalled that my grandfather had made trade with the enemy when with his mothers help he bought a steam engine mail-order from Montgomery Ward instead of through the country store he ran. Today's threat to LHS is Wal-Mart and Internet. Today's oppurtunity for the LHS is Internet. Past threats have been long-distance telephone and mail order. Reliable delivery systems provided by canel, steam ship, railroad, interstate highway system and airplanes have all had a hand. I buy local and internet and my reasons vary. I'm willing to pay a premium at a shop that knows its stuff. I'm willing to resort to the internet if I'm looking for something in particular and my LHS has been unable to deliver. At certain price points I buy internet as the LHS is not willing to even spot me the state sales tax. My closest LHS is 28 miles. My first useful LHS is 47 miles. Beyond that it becomes an all day road trip. But even the two closest have sold their stock EBay.

[Anonymous]

Short answer; yes.

[camarokid]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

One Answer to your Question,YES!
The Internet is the most POWERFUL TOOL around today!
Even I will idmit I myself must shop online because there are NO LHS in area for more than 50 miles.
There is a LHS in Lincoln,Neb. but im not gona drive over a 100 miles just for one Locomotive or I have at least 200 Dollars on hand or if I go Railfanning in Lincoln it self.

I will agree with you that the internet is bad for LHS business. If the LHS doesn't keep up to date or offer discounts on items it has to order (train cellar in lincoln does) the store won't be long lived. I won't order online as I detest giving my credit card number to anyone even when making hotel reservations. Have you ever tried to find an LHS in Omaha? Is South Sioux or Sioux City closer? I haven't looked at the map. I like driving to Lincoln to visit with Don and Don, Jr as they always have helped me with some of my problems. I will admit the 4 lane makes it so much easier. I will probably always buy my railroad items at my local hobby shop.
Archie

[csxns]

I got 6 Atlas 8-40CW locomotives for 575 dollars that includes shipping and insurance or i could have went to the LHS 73 miles one way and paid 114.95 so the net won this business.The only locos i will have to buy at the LHS are Athearn.

[Anonymous]

I look at product online to find out what i want and since you need a credit card to buy online i go to the LHS to make all purcheses because the internet is not plasible. Look online buy in person.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grayfox1119

OK, so lets talk about the big ticket items, as these are the items that bring the greatest profit margin, items like engines, DCC equipment, etc. At what discount do you decide to go enet vs LHS? If an engine cost $250 best price enet, and your LHS will sell it to you for $260, will you go local? $270, $280? I believe that will have as many answers as people replying to this thread only because everyone's financial situation is different. It is apparent to me that only a LHS located in a great market area, will survive in the coming decade. I sure hope I am wrong.

grayfox1119

The recent Broadway Limited factory sale is my experience with this question. Buy on the net or at the LHS?

My PRR J1 2-10-4 BLI engine listed at 380- retail. The recent sale had prices as low as 240- on the on the internet with rumors of even lower prices of 199-

I chose to have my LHS order the product due to the fact that he took a great deal of time and I would like to ensure that the item is not DOA when I go there to collect it. I was able to recieve a price that was between the low on the net and MSRP so that helped alot.

So the winner was the LHS.

[grayfox1119]

I totally agree with you Ray, I do the very same thing. When you are on limited income, you have no other choice.

grayfox1119

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grayfox1119

OK, so lets talk about the big ticket items, as these are the items that bring the greatest profit margin, items like engines, DCC equipment, etc. At what discount do you decide to go enet vs LHS? If an engine cost $250 best price enet, and your LHS will sell it to you for $260, will you go local? $270, $280? I believe that will have as many answers as people replying to this thread only because everyone's financial situation is different. It is apparent to me that only a LHS located in a great market area, will survive in the coming decade. I sure hope I am wrong.

grayfox1119

These days, I generally buy ALL my big ticket items online, be they engines, DCC components, or even track. The best discount I can get from any of the LHS around my area (west of Chicago) is 20%. That's fine for buildings, supplies, details, and "ooo that's neat" stuff they have in stock, but when we're talking a BLI engine that I can find on Ebay for 25%-40% off MSRP, I have to go online. I'm sort of stuck with buying track online, since I'm going with Peco code 75. LHS have been giving me a "weak dollar, raised prices, gotta charge more" spiel when it comes to Peco track, but I can still go to someplace like Internet Trains and find Peco code 75 at the old prices, and with 16%-28% off THAT price.

If the best price I can find online, including shipping, is within 10%-15% of what my LHS are charging, I'll generally go with them. I actually prefer shopping at them and supporting the local hobby community, but I can't afford to burn money by only shopping at them. And considering I'm mostly buying big-ticket items these days, most of my hobby dollars go online.

[douginut]

Another valid point,
My favorite LHS prospers through not only it's storefront but a GREAT website.
Also considerable numbers of auctions on EBay. good ones too.
their local prices are fair, and their Train-IQ is incredible!
They treat kids with courtesy and respect and become the genuine friends of most of their customers.
Rodger and Pauline are making the hobby GROW around Utah Valley.
The Hobby Stop, here in Orem and online www.mostlytrains.com
the best!

Doug, in Utah

[grayfox1119]

OK, so lets talk about the big ticket items, as these are the items that bring the greatest profit margin, items like engines, DCC equipment, etc. At what discount do you decide to go enet vs LHS? If an engine cost $250 best price enet, and your LHS will sell it to you for $260, will you go local? $270, $280? I believe that will have as many answers as people replying to this thread only because everyone's financial situation is different. It is apparent to me that only a LHS located in a great market area, will survive in the coming decade. I sure hope I am wrong.

grayfox1119

[tstage]

I have bought a few things off the Internet but 90% of my business I divide between two LHS's in my area. The knowledge base is insurpassible and the ability to look, open, and hold the merchandise BEFORE purchasing it is a real plus in my book. I want to see both of these shops do well, so I will continue to give them my business whenever possible. I would encourage everyone of you to do the same by supporting the GOOD ones in your area.

Tom

[RMax1]

I think things are just evolving. I buy a lot of stuff at the LHS and the local Hobby Lobby. I tend to order certain items from the internet and others from shows. The small stuff I need comes from the LHS. I buy a lot of supplies from Hobby Lobby the day after Christmas i.e. plaster cloth, ground cover, track, glue, people, at 40% or more off. Over the internet I've started buying decoders and an engine here and there. Train shows I pick up freight cars at $2 or $3 dollars a shot and kitba***hem or decorate. The LHS is there when I need them and provide good service and support. They answer questions and order strange things I require. In turn I buy some larger stuff from them and the higher margin items.

RMax

[Anonymous]

mehrlich

I agree with you, I am just trying to show what is happening to the LHS in the current buying climate. I love going to the LHS and looking at the new stuff and just gabbing in particular with the owner and fellow hobbyists. But if things do not change we will not be able to go to the LHS. My previous LHS was a mile from my house, the next one was eight and it just closed, now I go to one 20 miles away.

The LHS I do go to does just that, they stock what items you can not readily get on the Internet, and I do order items from them rather than use the internet as I can return them easily if there is a problem. I do buy on the internet for items that are no longer available locally or have been out of production for years.

Rick

[Anonymous]

I use the internet as a tool to keep an "Ear" on the track for coming new releases that otherwise would be "Missed" (Especially the limited run)

Ebay is really bad for MSRP when you are trying to buy today's offerings. I go to both of my LHS's and get these for the same price or slightly lower. However EBay is a source for OOP items. To save a little bit of money you need to know the MSRP of the item that is for sale and dont get caught up in the bidding.

I think that LHS's are doing rather well in my area I was told there is a very large amount of orders for some motive power due out soon coming in.. and Walthers shows these items as completely sold out. I think the day (I have one of these in for a order) that the UPS truck comes in to that LHS will be a "Happy days" for the store as people will line up to pay for it and take it home. Parking can be difficult.

Christmas time is usually a time for buying hobby items and it is a good year so far.

[Anonymous]

Rick,
Read again in my post why I go to a local hobby shop. It's not just about the shop paying rent, moving to a new location, threatening the landlord or selling bottles of paint. It's about getting to see your stuff run, visiting face to face with guys who know what they're talking about, and visiting with other modellers. You can't do those things on the internet. Well, except here, this is a great place to visit with other modellers...

It's a social thing, and generally lots of fun.

I find it amusing that anyone would think a hobby shop could make a living selling bottles of paint or items that can't be bought on the internet because the shipping would be too high, or just pull up and move to a better location so they could lower prices.


m

[BNSFGP38]

Wow, I didnt think I would get so many replies....thanks guys.

I must admit, for this upcomeing purchase of the Atlas DCC system, the LHS I frequent will not recieve my business. Not because of price( although I did find the duo pack for$120 [:)] online ) but because he does not know anything about DCC.
He even admits this is huge gap missing out of his business.

I also agree........some of these guys are old crotchety basterds and your utterly loathe haveing to give them a dollar.

The fact is, I am young and impaitent. I want that new engine now! [8D]
To be honest, I need to see things in my hands, look at the ballast, browse his back shelves and find these little trinkets he has from small small companys that Walthers wouldnt give the time of day too. Its rather like a treasure hunt.
I think these little details and small unusal kits are nice and add a touch of uniqueness to a layout.

I also have bought things there that I would have never given a second thought to even searching for on the net.
The one thing he turned me on to was the fact that, I dont need to buy a 6 billion dollar kit . When some paint, know how and some detail parts will make that $7 IHC kit look just the same.

So often, on events like the Tour De' Chooch, I vist peoples layouts and can practicly give the Manufactuer,price,page and walther # of that building to someone off the top of my head. Maybe its cause I used to work at the great train store, maybe its cause I read the Walthers book all the time..........or maybe, just maybe model railroading is becomeing sterile,cookie cutter business, like modern railroading it self.[2c]