Is DCC really "simpler", and is it useful for a shelf layout?

[Anonymous]

I know one of the advertised advantages of DCC is the simplicity. However, I seem to see a lot of postings like, "my new such & such engine & decoder won't run with my such & such DCC system". With responses like, "call customer service, they'll tell you to add a resistor" or "they took care of that problem in the latest upgrade...", or, "you should really get the system with more features if you want to do that...", or "they're no good, xxx brand is better anyway..."

This does not sound easier to me, but some DCC features sound downright fun.

I'm trying to figure out if DCC should be in my future or not.

I'm just getting back into MRR after a 15 year hiatus. This will be my first time MRR'ing as an adult. As a kid, it seemed expensive. As an adult, I'm determined it won't be expensive, because I'll keep my RR small and use my brain/skills instead of my wallet to make my RR.

I also liked Ben King's philosophy of, "I will only work on my model railroad when I feel like it". As a matter of fact, a layout similar to his in size is my goal.

My ultimate model railroad plans include a shelf layout, with a removable loop of unscenicked track to go around the room and return to the other end f the shelf for continuous running, or possibly two removable return loops.

Basically, in familar terms, I'd like a couple modules or "dominoes", with an unscenicked loop connecting both ends (or maybe two return loops).

I'd like to have one train run on the "mainline" which connects to the loop, and have another do some switching at the same time. I don't want the trains to end up landing on the same block, causing the main & the switcher to be controlled by the same power pack (here's where DCC would be nice, right?).

Being a mechanical engineer (and knowing a bit about electronics, but not enough to build fancy circuits, etc.), I figure I could wire this up with DC, even with some "protection" to keep the mainline train from hitting my switching train somehow, without having to flip block switches whenever the switcher needs to be on the main for a few seconds. (I may not be able to avoid flipping a block switch occasionally).

I want to do all of my model railroading "on the cheap". No fancy brass engines here, although I may scratchbuild one some day. All handlaid track ($20/turnout makes me cringe, no matter how good or bad my personal finances may be at any given time).

I am not the first on the block to buy the newest electronic gadget. I waited until DVD players were less than $150 to buy one (saw one for $42 at target a few days ago - makes me wonder how those who bought them at $500 a few years ago feel).

I'm just in the information gathering stage for DCC for my future layout plans.

Has anyone found DCC useful for a small shelf layout? I'm leaning towards good old-fashioned DC. There's something nice about fully understanding everything that's going on in the control system - no mysterious "black box" in there with chip that could die at any second, only to take me time to troubleshoot the problem.

Thoughts?

[Paul3]

For starters, for every horror story you've heard about DCC, I can match it with a DC horror story. [:)] If you want to have multiple trains running, something will be complex. There's no way around it. With analog, the complication is on the layout itself, with blocks, cabs, toggles, and lots of wire. If something breaks or shorts, you have to fix it yourself. With DCC, the complication is in the locos or the software/hardware of the DCC system. If something breaks, you send it back the company and they fix it, sometimes for a fee, sometimes free.

To address whether it is "simpler" or not, let me explain my own situation. I have a large layout, 25' x 50', and I have three operators running trains. Before DCC, I had three cabs, each with at least 6 blocks, each with it's own power supply. If I wanted to add an engine facility, I would have to add a block for each spot to park and engine, etc. I had several wiring problems at first, but I ironed them out, and all my engines needed no modificaiton.

Then I got the Digitrax Zephyr DCC system. I have some sockets to plug throttles into, a pair of 16 AWG wires running under the layout for track power, and a 6-cond. phone cable running beside the layout for the throttles. My DCC wiring on my layout couldn't be any simpler. However, each of my locos had to get a decoder installed, and while some took longer to get the shell off than to install the decoder, some others were real pains in the butt.

IMHO, each system for running multiple trains has it's problems, so I consider it a wash, really. That's when I start looking at what DCC allows you to do over DC, and DCC wins that hands down.

The only exception is if you are only going to run one loco at one time. Then it only makes sense to go DC. But once you start running more than one train at the same time, DCC starts looking good.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Anonymous]

If you're just starting out fresh and buying all new stuff, I'd really go with DCC. The basic starter system from Digitrax is only $150 right now at Tony's in Vermont (very nice people at Tony's btw). It comes with everything you need to control and power your layout.

With new or recent locomotives, the decoder (a circuit board) is already there, or its a cheap plugNplay swap out if there is no decoder in it. With older/cheaper engines, its still cheap to convert to DCC, but more time consuming. The programming involved is simple and straightfoward, as are the manuals.

My layout is similar to yours, but I usually have a boy or two with me, so DCC is an easy choice for me. If you are sure that you will be *always* alone operating the layout, then DC could be an option.

I don't look at it as a black box. You can really have some fun programming different variables into things, and operating everything on your layout from your transformer console or hand held throttle.

I really love the old muscle cars from the 60's, but I have to admit to myself that today's cars with their electonics produce more hp and torque from smaller, lighter, cleaner burning, fuel efficient engines. Transmissions and braking systems too.

DCC is modern.

My 2 cents, anyway.
Jim

[Jetrock]

One "plus" of DCC: It seems like it makes it easier to expand the LAYOUT, but a bit harder to expand one's fleet of engines! This is a reverse of the traditional "model railroader with a 4x6 layout and 20 locomotives" scenario...

Heck, that might help me...I've got a hatful of engines and not much layout...but nobody makes DCC trolleys yet, and I'm not ready to start cramming them into my Birneys yet.

[orsonroy]

DCC is only as complex as you want to make it. If all you want to do is run a couple of trains at one time, that's all you need to do, and you don't need a fancy or expensive system to do it with. Most of the big issues related to DCC show up when tech geeks get into model railroading and start to use it's full potential.

DCC is the simplest way to build a walkaround layout, since it offers the best ways to get into either handheld, IR or radio throttle control of your layout, and that's what shelf layouts are all about.

So if you're planning on building a walkaround shelf layout, using modern DCC-equipped (or ready) engines, and don't want a hard time getting a versatile track plan up and running, then DCC is the way to go.

And DCC-ready switches are only about $8 apiece (Atlas code 100). Factor in your time and materials for handlaying, and it's generally cost-effective to go with commercial track. I know my TIME is the most valuable resource I've got, and handlaying will never be an option for me!

[BRVRR]

All of the above is good advice. I have a relatively small (4x10) layout. I converted to DCC two years ago and have never looked back. The independent control of engines, regardless of direction, or the number on the layout is worth the price of the control system. If you ever intend to have sound, DCC is the only way to go. I know, that some systems, QSI comes to mind, operate on DC, but you cannot get the full potential out of the engines and decoders you pay for, without DCC.
Try all of the systems available before you buy. Any of the entry level systems should suit your purposes. Just keep the idea of expandability in mind. Some of the low end systems are not expandable.
I installed my Digitrax Zephyr on my layout in about 5-minutes and had an analog engine running. (Most systems can run one, non-decoder equipped locomotive at a time). Installing a decoder took a little longer but the results were worth it.
Were I you, I would go with DCC from the get-go!

[Anonymous]

Digital Command Control Really does make things simple.

On my old layout, Which was basicly a loop of track, a small yard and a few industry spurs crammed onto a 4X6 sheet of plywood, DCC eliminated my entire electrical controp panel and its related wiring. (My Switches were hand throws) and made things a very simple two wires to each side of the main line loop and to the industry group, and yard group of tracks. I am now planning a larger layout that would make use of its more advanced features, and DCC still makes it much simpler to go vs the old toggle wiring system.

James.

[raynbecky]

I had a 2x8 for years and had 4 blocks and power routed turnouts for industrial tracks. I converted it to DCC and never looked back. It's awesome for having two engines working together to move trains! Before I had to be careful to make sure engines were in blocks before I could do anything. (I had 2 power packs but it was such a hassle to operate this way I disconnected the second one unless someone was visiting.) After putting in DCC I simply either used the left knob for one engine or the right knob for the other engine. No more worrying about switches or anything else, just moving cars just like they do on the real railroads. Now if you don't use multiple engines then I wouldn't bother. If it's just going to be one or two engines always mu'ed then it doesn't matter either. I LOVE DCC now that I have it. I'll never go back to DC control.

[Anonymous]

The size of your layout really does not matter,when you consider the simplicty in witch you can run your train or trains.With dcc and one hand on the throttlle you can run one or more decoder equipped engines at the same time doing different things in different directions,on the same track.with the addition of a staionary decoder you can control your turnout or turnouts still while only having one hand on the throttle.If you have a reverse loop the addition of a power reverser your polarity is switched automatically.All the while only requring your one hand on the throttle,while your other hand may be used to drink coffee,a beer,pop,or yes i must include scratching your rear end,not a pretty picture but one that i fear happens many times.Before you go out and buy any system,you should look for clubs or other modelers in your area who are running DCC try and go see them and look at the ease in witch they run their layouts.I started out with digitrax didn't like the throttle found someone who was running lenz,went and seen it in operation came home that day and bought one I think it is the greatest for my perticular taste,and i like the throttle.I had no way to try Nce but from its following here and many other places it must also be a great system.Weather or not you choose to go dc or dcc it's your layout and I hope you have many hours enjoying your trains..Also[#welcome] no matter the question you will undoughtly find the answer here amoung the many modelers who use this forum.Good luck Terry.

[Anonymous]

One thing I could say is I love DCC because it is easy. I would rather run DCC with my reverse polarity moduleand not have to worry about doing all taht stuff myself. I can run more than one train at a time without have blocks and crap. DCC by far is the best thing. The downfall is that I have to buy a loc, and then buy a stupid *** Decoder which is expensive for a small thng. Even ebay sellers lost their mind selling them for $25 the really rip you off by charging you $7 shipping!!!! Crazy *** sellers. I hate some ebay sellers by the way. Anyway DCC I love it!!! IT IS BETTER THAN DC

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock

One "plus" of DCC: It seems like it makes it easier to expand the LAYOUT, but a bit harder to expand one's fleet of engines! This is a reverse of the traditional "model railroader with a 4x6 layout and 20 locomotives" scenario...

Heck, that might help me...I've got a hatful of engines and not much layout...but nobody makes DCC trolleys yet, and I'm not ready to start cramming them into my Birneys yet.

Hey Jetrock! Hope you're doing well.

Just wanted to throw in my two cents that at the Tampa GATS show recently I saw a number of DCC decoders that, IMHO, would fit in that Birney! These were Digitrax units. If I'm not mistaken, TCS also makes decoders that fit into tight spaces.

I'm in a similar situation and you're actually in a good position! I don't have a layout yet, so I'm upgrading my small fleet of HO units to DCC with the help of a good friend that's already into DCC. I'm (hopefully) buying a Zephyr in a few weeks. Don't let the small size of your fleet or layout dissuade you.

(BTW: here in Tampa the transit bus company has a prototype Birney that was recently restored, and it runs!)

Peace![:)][:D][8)][:D][tup]

[dehusman]

A lot of the problems are with which system you buy. Look at the brand names of the systems that are having the problems.

I bought NCE and haven't had any of those problems. Truly plug and play.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

I've just plunked down $450 for a Lenz System, TTX power shield, power supply, xpa wireless phone adapter, etc. After doing much research and placing this order - I have to wonder is it really worth it. Mind you that includes 0 decoders. I have 3 Atlas DCC equiped locos to start me off - I have another 12 to 15 locos that will need chips - so lets add another $300 for decoders. So $750 is a lot of money - does the benefit outweigh the cost - I think that is a better question.

To all the folks that feel the wiring is easier - do you solder ALL of your track sections to either another piece of track or a feeder wire - this can be very time consuming (especially when you have 0 solder experience) - and is not necessary (although it may be recommended) on a DC layout (DC is a lot less sensitive).

Also did you wire in power districts - If I understand this properly - wouldn't you need a separate bus for each district - (this will result in a lot more than the two wires - that folks say make up a DCC system)

On my old DC layout - i used Peco power routing turnouts - this negated the need for additional wiring and electircal switches - and I had no blocks on the mainline - no feeders etc.

[robengland]

DCC will never be cheaper than DC. For those modelling on a tight budget it is a no-brainer: go DC.

For those who want to get more operational possibilities out of their railroad, who want to simplify wiring and control panels (what control panels?), or who get off on technology, go DCC. I've spent a fortune on it and loved every minute of it.

A repost of mine from another thread:

"Last night I stopped a sound effects-equipped Mikado and its train, left it quietly huffing and ticking (the pump), pulled a diesel switcher up to the back of the same train, pulled off the caboose, turned off the red flasher on the rear of the caboose remotely, backed up, threw the turnout remotely, pulled forward with the Mikado which huffed and hissed back into life, ran the diesel and caboose forward into the parallel track at the same time.... and did all that from one handheld wireless controller controlling the two locos, the caboose lighting, the turnouts...

When I first built the layout I made the grade too steep on the dip in the loop round the back and a train got stuck in the bottom of the dip, wheel spinning in either direction. SO I stopped it while I sent a helper round to give it a shove. I adjusted the speed of both locos to get a nice smooth push up the hill...

try doing all that with anything but DCC. It's awesome."

[Anonymous]

As to the question of DCC making is simpler or being worth it on a shelf layout I would ask this: How many locomotives would you like to see moving on the layout at the same time? If that number is larger than one then the answer is that DCC will make it simpler!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by solosdad

I've just plunked down $450 for a Lenz System, TTX power shield, power supply, xpa wireless phone adapter, etc. After doing much research and placing this order - I have to wonder is it really worth it. Mind you that includes 0 decoders. I have 3 Atlas DCC equiped locos to start me off - I have another 12 to 15 locos that will need chips - so lets add another $300 for decoders. So $750 is a lot of money - does the benefit outweigh the cost - I think that is a better question.

To all the folks that feel the wiring is easier - do you solder ALL of your track sections to either another piece of track or a feeder wire - this can be very time consuming (especially when you have 0 solder experience) - and is not necessary (although it may be recommended) on a DC layout (DC is a lot less sensitive).

Also did you wire in power districts - If I understand this properly - wouldn't you need a separate bus for each district - (this will result in a lot more than the two wires - that folks say make up a DCC system)

On my old DC layout - i used Peco power routing turnouts - this negated the need for additional wiring and electircal switches - and I had no blocks on the mainline - no feeders etc.

If you would sir take a look at the links at the bottom of this post although this layout was orig. wired for dc control,thats why the seperate panels for the switches and turntable.And yes the track was soldered togeather,and the feeders were soldered in about every 10 feet, after allmost five years without a train one being run on it within ten minutes of hooking power and my set 100 from lenz {two days of track cleaning} i was able to run the entire lenght of this layout without a single power problem.Is dc cheaper than dcc well thats without a dought,is there as much wiring well that depends on your layout size and track plan, and how you intend to operate once it is complete.Even if you run dc good track power connections is a must for reliable operation,Once this layout is up and running there are six districts all with their own throttle bus,5 guys will be able to operate while I run my wireless controlled mainline what ever uninterupted by what they are doing as I pass thru there pirticular district,other than occuping track space it will noy affect the control of my train.Try that with dc while drinking a cup of coffee.I think once you get the lenz in operation you will see the ease at witch you can controll your trains.As far as decoders and prices my set came with an offer that had a buy one get one free with the return of the warr. card while not the best offer it was atleast a little bite off the cost. I do not claim that dcc is the best thing for everyone,Just my opinion on what works the best for me.

[BRAKIE]

I use a Digi Traxx Empire Builder II and Sound Traxx Plug and Play DCC/Sound decoders..I use BASIC DCC..That means I do not fool with the CV settings..I simply put the DCC/Sound decoder in,program the engine address and acquired it and ran it. No fuss no muss.[:D]
Now, If I knew I would end up having to move due to a highway access extension and would end up with a one engine industrial switching layout I would have NOT gone DCC...DCC was nice on my old layout since I usually had 3 operators.Now outside of sound DCC is no better then then my DC N Scale industrial switching layout....