I have used all typed of adhesives to hold down ballast, then one day I decided to do it like the real road, just lay the ballast and pack it down. Can you imagine a bunch of rail workers carrying a big bottle of Elmers Glue doen the track to lay ballast. So I decided no nd just let the ballast fall where it may. I also wanted to try this new technique of transferring pics to the topic and not going through what everbody has suggested.
I just copy the old pictures I have another web-site and paste to this discussion site, so here goes.
I am on the side of the Lion. Forty years of modeling and I have tried it all, wet water, diluted glue, alcohol soaked into the ballast, AMI rubber roadbed where you press the ballast into the roadbed, (actually like that, makes it easy); or just pouring it out and letting fall in place, just like the proto-types.
It apers to be sand, which have used so I just pour it on there and brush it in place. Wet sand looks like wet sand, but dry sand actually works, I even color it with with black and white powered paints; (no water, jus tthe pigment) from Crayola and it works great. It is a dry mix.
Now, you can also spread the glue first along the cork, topper tape, whatever you use for the subroad bed the using the paper cup method you can control the ballast material as you apply it to the tracks. Make sure you use very little, just a hint.
Both for the most part I use dry ballast and no glue. Ready for some pictures.
You can see the center line for the next piece of topper tape. Evening view as ballast has been laid.
Eventually the blue foam will be covered, but the essentials of the track laying are the same, center line on the blue foam then on the topper tape or AMI road bed.
Same on the curves, only I use a yardstick with a hole drilled at increment to determine the radius, 28",30",32", then draw a line the follow the line with the center of the topper tape.
Robert Sylvester, WTRR
Well what do you guys think, that is how I post my pictures, copy and paste.
See ya,
Robert Sylvester
We did the loose method for the layout we used to set up for the Christmas holidays - house wasn;t big enough for a permanent layout. So it went up, was up for a month and a half, then put away. Track was nailed down, but ballast, roads, and all the structures, people, and vehicles were removable.
The reason I would never do this on a permanent layout (or as permanent as they get) - a standard breeze will never blow real ballast rocks around, they are too heavy. Tornadoes or hurricanes, different story. But HO scale ballast? Sneeze once and you blow the ballast off a good section of the track. And all over your other scenery. Also, loose grains can get sucked up into gears, which is definitely not a good thing. If you're going through all the trouble to make it look nice - shaped edges, tie tops clear, etc - why not secure it in place so it stays that way no matter what? The hard part is getting it alll neatly groomed. Adding the glue is the easy part. Isopropyl alcohol is a better wetting agent than water with a drop of detergant in it - especially if you have hard water. Isopropyl, NOT rubbing alcohol - the two are NOOT the same. Rubbing alcohol is isoproply plus oils and other additives. Isoproply is just the alcohol plus water, the amount depending on the percentage, 70% is cheap and fine for ballast and scenery wetting, that's 70% alcohol and 30% water. 90% is 90% alcohol and 10% water.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Foolishness!
Ballasting track can be a pain, but I think Randy has it right. Eventually you will have a catastrophe. Do what I do and approach ballasting as an exercise in zen.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
I believe our Broadway Lion uses kitty litter and gravity.
Randy sneezes like my wife, an event "full of sound and fury but signifying nothing" but that may be TMI
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Robert, your ballasted track looks just fine to me! However....
The only time I clean track, in the conventional sense of that operation, is after ballasting or adding scenery near the track, and the main purpose of that cleaning is to remove any glue residue from the rails. After that, track cleaning occurs every one or two years, and is done with a shop vac, used to remove the small amount of dust which may have accumulated in that period. I'm not one of those modellers who complain about the agony of ballasting...I actually find it quite relaxing, but I certainly don't want to have to repeat it every time I clean track, even if it's only every one or two years.
Wayne
Dr. Wayne,
I do agree you when it come to cleaning track, loose ballast gums up the works, and there some area where I do use an adhesive. But when I have to rip up track to make a change that glue can make it difficult. When you have too change track where it is glued down what is the best way. Sometimes I just have to use the old spatula and pull it up. Thanks.
Robert
Nice photos! My fear with not gluing down ballast is the stuff getting caught up in the wheels and creating issues. The problems of not gluing down ballast become worse when they mean having a damaged loco.
Ballasting is a zen thing for me too. I can't wait to do that on my larger layout to give it a "cleaner look."
My offer still stands to anyone interested: I do your ballasting if you do my wiring! I can even throw in doing ground cover, trees, etc.
Glue the ballast down with the wet water/alcohol method. After the ballast dries suck up loose particles in empty dust buster (for reuse) they repeat as needed until all bare areas are covered.
when finished use dusbuster carefully ove entire layout to remove loose rocks. Be careful little train people have been known to be sucked up!
Joe Staten Island West
I love the Woodland Scenics Scenic cement- Get a fine misting sprayer and it doesn't need a wetting agent.
robert sylvester...when I have to rip up track to make a change that glue can make it difficult...
My track is mostly Atlas, put in with track nails through the ties. Ballast is Woodland Scenics or real rock, fixed in place with diluted white glue. If I need to move or remove track, I simply pull the track nails, then spray the entire area with "wet" water.
Here's an area where the track needed to be changed to accommodate a new industry...
After using a sprayer to apply "wet" water to the area needing revisions, and letting it soak for an hour-or-so, the turnout has been lifted with the help of a putty knife - I unsoldered the rail joiners by applying heat and then used the tip of an X-Acto blade to push the rail joiner either completely onto the rails of the turnout or the track to which it was connected. When the turnout is re-installed, that process is simply reversed...
...because the glue was softened by the water, the ballast remaining is loose, and can be scraped up with a putty knife. You'll also note that the end of the disconnected track, to the right, has been slightly relocated further to the right, to accommodate the planned replacement of the removed turnout...
Here's the original turnout, relocated closer to the street, with some replacement track added to reconnect to the ones severed...
I then added ballast to the relocated turnout and to the added track....
...and re-ballasted a portion of the connecting track and of the long siding to the left...
Once the ballast was dry, the track was cleaned, then put back into service...
The tear-out and replacement was done easily, and with little disruption to the surrounding area.
These curves, mostly hidden by the trains, were originally built with a pair of turnouts in them, to allow run-around moves for locomotives working the nearby industries....
They were ballasted and had the adjacent scenery in place, too, and while they worked well, they proved to be redundant during actual operations. I removed them in the same manner as outlined above, then re-ballasted the area, and now there's no evidence that they even existed.
Don't be afraid to move or remove track if it will improve your layout. It's actually quite easy to do.
drgwcs I love the Woodland Scenics Scenic cement- Get a fine misting sprayer and it doesn't need a wetting agent.
I'd hesitate to spray the glue mixture - not only will you get it on anything nearby, but I can't imagine that it will leave your sprayer in useable condition. I'd guess, too, that it's considerably more expensive than ordinary white glue.Good if it works for you, though, I guess.
Pretty much all it is is white glue, diluted with water and a wetting agent. So yeah, kind of expensive considering you can get white glue by the gallon jug and just mix your own. I get taking shortcuts because something is difficult to do, but this is pretty darn easy and not very time consuming.
kasskaboose Nice photos! My fear with not gluing down ballast is the stuff getting caught up in the wheels and creating issues. The problems of not gluing down ballast become worse when they mean having a damaged loco. Ballasting is a zen thing for me too. I can't wait to do that on my larger layout to give it a "cleaner look." My offer still stands to anyone interested: I do your ballasting if you do my wiring! I can even throw in doing ground cover, trees, etc.
I may take you up on that. I don;t exactly find putting down ballast to be tedious, but I don't have a lot of patience for it. I can only do so much before I have to stop and go do something else or else I start getting sloppy and stop having fun. Same with painting the rails - I've always done it by hand, with a microbrush, not airbrushing the whole thing, and I usually use two colors to get the dirsty and sometimes rusty appearance of the web. I just can't zone out and keep on going, I can only do so much, then I need to take a break.
rrinker....I just can't zone out and keep on going, I can only do so much, then I need to take a break.
But that's the whole point, Randy...it's not a race. Do as much as is comfortable, then take a break...15 minutes, or hours, or even 15 days. Eventually it'll get done. I'm pretty much the opposite, I guess: if I set a target of 15', I usually end up extending it to 20' or more.
For painting rail, I also prefer a brush, but use a wider, chisel-type - as big as will fit in the paint bottle. It holds more paint, so less dips into the bottle. and if you accidentally get some paint on the tieplates, so much the better, as they weather just like the rail...that colour often bleeds out onto the ties and ballast, too, just like in real life. Don't worry if you get paint on the top of the rails, either - it'll wipe off pretty easily, even if it dries before you get to it.
Yes, I just don't get into the zen of it like some people. To me it's a tedious task that needs to be done so to keep sane I need to do it in small doses. Definitely lean towards ADD, but there are plenty of other things I can sit and work at for hours at a time. Reading in particular - new magazine or book comes, it's hard to put down to go do something else, I want to read the whole thing. It's also why I have never and will never build a layout the way I see some done - build 100% of the benchwork. Then lat 100% of the roadbed. The 100% of the track. The wire it all, etc. I prefer a rolling approach - some of the benchwork, the start on roadbed, maybe extend the benchwork, add some track, hook up some feeders and test run, keep on to the next section. So any time I have to work on the layout, I cna do whatever I feel like at the moment. Feel like building some benchwork? Feel like hooking up some wiring? Paint some track? Somewhere there be sections at various stages to handle whatever I feel like working on. ANd most things I do work at I tend to just go at them - often times I intend to take pictures to show progress, or a technique I am using, but once I get into it, I just complete the task instead of stopping to take pictures.
Not gluing ballast seems like a disaster just waiting to happen.
.
Sooner or later it is going to get all over the place and be very hard to clean up. You will always need to be careful any time you touch the layout not to mess it up.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
doctorwayneI'd hesitate to spray the glue mixture - not only will you get it on anything nearby, but I can't imagine that it will leave your sprayer in useable condition. I'd guess, too, that it's considerably more expensive than ordinary white glue. Good if it works for you, though, I guess.
To be honest I was a little shocked how well it worked. I had always used the wetting agent/ eyedropper routine before. I first tried it on a gravel parking lot-nothing moved and everything stuck great. I think the key is a real fine sprayer- I tried another one more intended for cleaning- too course a spray. I think the one I got was like they use when doing haircuts- sprays a fine mist. (My wife picked it up at Dollar Tree it is a colored bottle) You do have to run some water through it occasionally to clean and always shake up the bottle. Jim
The tropical storm is beginning to pick up here in the midlands of SC, battening down, play with trains in the basement. Dr. Wayne, your track work is amazing and really neat, (ol timer saying), but it really looks good. Your tips, as well as everybody's was excellent and I thank all of you for your input.
I actually find ballasting relaxing and when it looks good it is very satisfying. I do use the loose stuf, (each to his own), but I also use the alcohol and white glue in some areas, espeically when I feel the track is solid. This mornig I had to coaches that kept derailing. I checked the trucks, a little tight, but also my track was leaning to one side, difficult to see, but getting down to track level and eye balling the area I could see one rail lower than the other. Fortunately the ballast was still loose and I could remedy the situation by brushing the ballast away and using shims on the lower side lifted the track up just a bit to make them level and now the coaches travel right through with out a hitch. One the ballast settles in then I will glue it down. I also use the track nails to hold the track in place then paint the heads to match the ties.
Again, thanks to all of you for your take on this subject.
Newberry to Columbia, SC
Have both HO and O gauge layouts up now for 30 years. I used kitty litter on both layouts with a large portion of it laying there for decades, never glued down. This has made additions, changes, and repairs easy through the years. Find several big containers of the litter that fit your expectation and go with it. Size and color do vary. HO is brass track and O is Gargraves not so flexible flex track, both airbrushed rail brown. Had no problems with locomotives or turn out control. Would never mess with glue......my experience.