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Trip Pin Frustration

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Posted by maxman on Sunday, September 9, 2018 8:52 PM

BigDaddy
https://www.amazon.com/Kadee-Qualtiy-Products-Trip-Pliers-KADEE/dp/B01MTL2ZIM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1536361898&sr=8-2&keywords=kadee+237

Well, I went to the Amazon website and had a chat with "Phoebe".  Told her that there seemed to be a problem with the pricing.  Not sure she totally understood me, but I believe that I got her attention when I told her that I belonged to a forum and the members thought that Amazon was ripping people off.  She said she would escalate the issue.

Maybe nothing will happen, but at least I tried.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, September 8, 2018 8:02 AM

RR_Mel

 

 
BigDaddy

I have never used the tool.  I have always used pliers and fully expected I would break a pin, but never have.  I searched my favorite retailer Amazon and I can get one for a mere $63 and NO free shipping

"I kid you not" Jack Parr

https://www.amazon.com/Kadee-Qualtiy-Products-Trip-Pliers-KADEE/dp/B01MTL2ZIM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1536361898&sr=8-2&keywords=kadee+237

 

 

 

That’s a bit high Henry.   Model Train Stuff has the tool for $11.69.
 
 
I think I paid about $8 for my tool back in the 90s at my LHS.
 
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
 
 

Amazon is full of great deals, and also full of small vendors looking to take advantage of people........

Sheldon

    

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Posted by Graham Line on Friday, September 7, 2018 10:35 PM

Shimming inside the coupler box isn't the cure for coupler height problems. Shims keep the coupler from flopping through too great of a vertical range. Our shims are generally .005 or .010. It greatly reduces the chances of unwanted uncoupling.

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Posted by angelob6660 on Friday, September 7, 2018 9:31 PM

I wouldn't buy the trip pin pliers. It's a unnecessary tool, just use a regular set of pliers.

Modeling the G.N.O. Railway, The Diamond Route.

Amtrak America, 1971-Present.

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Posted by RR_Mel on Friday, September 7, 2018 6:57 PM

BigDaddy

I have never used the tool.  I have always used pliers and fully expected I would break a pin, but never have.  I searched my favorite retailer Amazon and I can get one for a mere $63 and NO free shipping

"I kid you not" Jack Parr

https://www.amazon.com/Kadee-Qualtiy-Products-Trip-Pliers-KADEE/dp/B01MTL2ZIM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1536361898&sr=8-2&keywords=kadee+237

 

That’s a bit high Henry.   Model Train Stuff has the tool for $11.69.
 
 
I think I paid about $8 for my tool back in the 90s at my LHS.
 
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
 
  • Member since
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Posted by 7j43k on Friday, September 7, 2018 6:53 PM

BigDaddy

I searched my favorite retailer Amazon and I can get one for a mere $63 and NO free shipping

"I kid you not" Jack Parr

https://www.amazon.com/Kadee-Qualtiy-Products-Trip-Pliers-KADEE/dp/B01MTL2ZIM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1536361898&sr=8-2&keywords=kadee+237

 

 

You COULD go nuts and pay FULL RETAIL:   $14.70

 

Ed

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Posted by BigDaddy on Friday, September 7, 2018 6:21 PM

I have never used the tool.  I have always used pliers and fully expected I would break a pin, but never have.  I searched my favorite retailer Amazon and I can get one for a mere $63 and NO free shipping

"I kid you not" Jack Parr

https://www.amazon.com/Kadee-Qualtiy-Products-Trip-Pliers-KADEE/dp/B01MTL2ZIM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1536361898&sr=8-2&keywords=kadee+237

Henry

COB Potomac & Northern

Shenandoah Valley

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Posted by joe323 on Friday, September 7, 2018 5:00 PM

I used to cut the pins off but that was mostly when i used inferior Kadee clones (Mostly EZ mates) but now that I have converted to all Kadees I check and adust them if needed.

Joe Staten Island West 

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Posted by RR_Mel on Friday, September 7, 2018 12:24 PM

I’ve always been a Kadee Coupler Gauge guy.  I always make sure the coupler draft box is at the correct height and I’ve never had to adjust a new bought coupler trip pin.  The only trip pin adjustment needed is a damaged one or a second hand coupler (used purchase).
 
I have cut over to the Kadee #119 Scale Shelf Couplers for my passenger cars because I rarely uncouple any of my passenger trains except to remove them from my layout.  That stops accidental uncoupling by visiting observers.
 
The #119 has whisker centering springs and sometimes they need shimming in older draft gear.  The Kadee #5 brass centering insert works great after trimming off the sides with sharp diagonal cutters.
 
Because of the slightly smaller size of the Kadee Scale Couplers I’m planning to convert my freight rolling stock also.  I don’t have a huge quantity of rolling stock like most on the Forum and I’m not a rivet counter but I do like the closer to scale size of the Scale Couplers.
 
When I have a derail from the trip pins it is always a damaged coupler of draft gear, normally caused by the finger method.  The older I get the more I drop stuff and I’m normally super clumsy.  Invariably the coupler gets the worst end of the mishap.  If any coupler looks like it might be damaged it goes into the round can and is replaced with a brand new Kadee.
 
As I overhaul or make modifications to any car it must pass the Kadee Coupler Gauge check before it’s returned to service.
 
The only coupler pins that I have cut off are on locomotive pilots where the pin would be in the way.    
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
 
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Posted by SeeYou190 on Friday, September 7, 2018 11:36 AM

7j43k
I don't think so. Currently, a Kadee code 83 magnet is .100" high. It will project above the rail top by .017". Back when they magnets were introduced, Kadee said they projected above the rails by 1/64" (.016"). And the coupler pin to rail top was specified as 1/32". Giving an operating clearance of 1/64". Not a lot, for most modelers. But enough.

.

OK, that makes sense, and I think it makes all the difference.

.

I only use Kadee #308 or #309 under the tie uncouplers, so I do not need to contend with any magnets above the rails.

.

If I had a magnets mounted 0.017" above the rails, then a trip pin height of 0.020" would not give me comfortable clearance for operation.

.

-Kevin

.

Living the dream.

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Posted by 7j43k on Friday, September 7, 2018 10:57 AM

SeeYou190

 

 
7j43k
So a go/no-go gauge would not be used, only a go gauge. And that gauge, according to Kadee's specifications, should be .031" (1/32") thick, and sitting on the rail tops. The .020"/.040" gauges will accept pin clearances below the .031" specification (.025", for example), and are therefore incorrect. A piece of .030" styrene would likely be an adequate choice for a gauge.

 

 

I think we are really splitting hairs on this one.

 

Yeah, probably.  What we're all after is reliable coupling.  How it's done is, in a way, secondary.  Your system works for you, mine for me.

The Kadee specification is a nominal measurement of about 0.030"

 

 
I don't think so.  Currently, a Kadee code 83 magnet is .100" high.  It will project above the rail top by .017".  
 
Back when they magnets were introduced, Kadee said they projected above the rails by 1/64" (.016").  And the coupler pin to rail top was specified as 1/32".  Giving an operating clearance of 1/64".  Not a lot, for most modelers.  But enough.
 
So it ain't nominal (in name only), it's real.  Kadee said so.
 
 
Ed
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Posted by SeeYou190 on Friday, September 7, 2018 7:14 AM

7j43k
So a go/no-go gauge would not be used, only a go gauge. And that gauge, according to Kadee's specifications, should be .031" (1/32") thick, and sitting on the rail tops. The .020"/.040" gauges will accept pin clearances below the .031" specification (.025", for example), and are therefore incorrect. A piece of .030" styrene would likely be an adequate choice for a gauge.

.

I think we are really splitting hairs on this one.

.

The Kadee specification is a nominal measurement of about 0.030", and I accepted a tolerance of +/- 0.010", so I made my 0.020"/0.040" step go/no-go gauge which verifies that all my trip pins are in between 0.020" and 0.040" with 0.030" being the theoretical median.

.

This has resulted in perfect performance with my magnetic uncoupler of choice.

.

Also, making precision adjustments to trip pin height, even using the Kadee trip pin pliers is very difficult. Getting them to within 0.010" is possible with acceptable frustration.

.

If you can adjust your pins to get slight drag on a 0.031" shim, well, more power to you.

.

Mine are all consistent and good enough for perfect operation, and that is all I need.

.

I also made my own coupler height gauge with a tolerance of +/- 0.010", and it also helped me achieve perfect operation.

.

-Kevin

.

Living the dream.

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Friday, September 7, 2018 6:19 AM

7j43k

Agreeing with Tom, I haven't bent a Kadee pin in years.  But I do spend a whole lot of time getting coupler height right.  It frequently involves a milling machine.

Ed

You may be right in that Kadee sells the trip pins adjusted correctly out of the box so that if the coupler matches the Kadee height gauge, the trip pin should not interfere with with trackwork.

I like that little extra margin so have made a practice when building kits to bend the trip pin up just a bit more than "stock".  Why?  because even though I do my best to match couplers to the height gauge, something might change while the car is in operation and that bit of extra margin will hopefully keep the trip pin up enough that even if the coupler droops, it will still clear track work.  I have found that occasionally couplers I had checked against the height gauge as a match, later on dropped a bit for some reason.  I have put a lot of effort also into getthing coupler height right, but as the old saying goes. "stuff happens".

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

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Posted by zstripe on Thursday, September 6, 2018 7:03 PM

I really suspect though.....If the OP has the trip pins on the coupler hitting the ties, that there is a lot more going on then just the length of the trip pins.........

Take Care!Big Smile

Frank

 

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Posted by BNSF UP and others modeler on Thursday, September 6, 2018 6:46 PM

Worse case scenario, you can tell the pins to quit tripping on the ties!!!

I'm so not funny.

I'm beginning to realize that Windows 10 and sound decoders have a lot in common. There are so many things you have to change in order to get them to work the way you want.

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Posted by 7j43k on Thursday, September 6, 2018 6:12 PM

Agreeing with Tom, I haven't bent a Kadee pin in years.  But I do spend a whole lot of time getting coupler height right.  It frequently involves a milling machine.

 

 

Ed

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Posted by tstage on Thursday, September 6, 2018 5:57 PM

oldline1
KD's have been around forever and when properly adjusted provide flawless service. They aren't generally open the package, slap them in and go run though. They need to be installed in the coupler boxes correctly and the trip poins often need teaking.

oldline1,

I've used Kadee #58/#158 couplers exclusively on my rolling stock (150+ pieces) and I think I've bent the trip pin up on maybe 4 or 5 of them?  For me that's pretty much tweak-free operation.

Tom

https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling

Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.

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Posted by zstripe on Thursday, September 6, 2018 5:45 PM

richhotrain

 

 
zstripe

Not a big fan of whisker couplers.

 

 

How come, Frank?

 

Rich

 

 

I believe it's possibly a personnal thing.....but it seems to Me that the #5 when using the sheet spring, produce's a tighter fit.....no slop in shank area.

Take Care!Big Smile

Frank

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Posted by 7j43k on Thursday, September 6, 2018 3:11 PM

CNSF
So everyone's talking about bending the trip pins and wagging fingers at you for not installing Kadee's "right", and only a couple of posters have identified the real problem, which is excessive height inside the coupler box that allows the coupler to droop, and recommended shims.
 

The inside height of a Kadee 242 box is .075", and a Kadee 158 is .058" thick.  Allowing .002" for clearance, that means you can only shim .015".

I have just been doing coupler height correction on freight cars and locomotives.  Many of those have a much greater correction need than .015".

While shimming can be a good solution for some coupler height problems, it cannot be the only one.  As I have been finding out.

 

Thus I must continue to wag my finger at you!

 

 

Ed

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, September 6, 2018 11:24 AM

zstripe

Not a big fan of whisker couplers.

How come, Frank?

Rich

 

Alton Junction

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Thursday, September 6, 2018 11:17 AM

zstripe
Not a big fan of whisker couplers.

.

I have found that the whisker couplers work amazing in Kadee's own coupler boxes, especially the #232 snap together black box.

.

In most manufacturer's boxes the #5 or 20 series seem to work best.

.

-Kevin

.

Living the dream.

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Posted by zstripe on Thursday, September 6, 2018 10:08 AM

Use of the Kadee copper sheet coupler spring that comes with the #5 coupler for the draft gear box, just about will eliminate coupler droop.......on all the ones I have anyway. Not a big fan of whisker couplers. I still use #5's, and many 1/4 shank couplers for a closer car to car fit. Tightest curve I have is a 32''.....not a problem......I install all My couplers with a little bit of Labelle #134 Teflon lubricating powder....works like a charm.

Take Care! Big Smile

Frank

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Posted by CNSF on Thursday, September 6, 2018 9:51 AM
So everyone's talking about bending the trip pins and wagging fingers at you for not installing Kadee's "right", and only a couple of posters have identified the real problem, which is excessive height inside the coupler box that allows the coupler to droop, and recommended shims. This is a particularly common problem with Athearn blue box cars, and shims are indeed the best way to deal with it because not only will the trip pins then clear the track but the coupler itself will be at the correct level and less likely to disconnect due to height differences with adjoining cars. Use the smoothest, slipperiest material possible for coupler shims. I have had success with thin styrene sheet, but plan to try brass sheet as well since it can be easily lubricated.
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Posted by cv_acr on Wednesday, September 5, 2018 9:42 AM

BroadwayLion

Da heck with couplers, ... LION uses DRAWBARS

 

Most people aren't running subway trains with fixed sets that never change. Your example isn't really that useful...

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Posted by rbturner on Wednesday, September 5, 2018 9:31 AM

I think sometimes the cost of the KD tool prohibits its use. Another tool that works just as well and looks pretty much the same as the KD tool can be found in a Michael's or Hobby Lobby in the jewelry making supplies section. The tool is used for bending wire etc. I have used one for trip pins with good success and it is also invaluable for making handrail bends and forming the top curve on caboose ladders.

Randy
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Posted by 7j43k on Tuesday, September 4, 2018 8:23 PM

 

"A go/no-go gauge is an integral part of the quality process that is used in the manufacturing industry to ensure interchangeability of parts between processes and between different manufacturers."

 

Ed

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Tuesday, September 4, 2018 8:10 PM

riogrande5761
The only "go no-go" I've ever heard of is a point on the runway airplane needs to abort a take off or proceed.

.

A "Go/No-Go" Gauge has a step and two different thicknesses. The most common application is for valve stem clearance adjustment.

.

If you need to set a valve to 0.012", you would use a 0.011"/0.013" go/no-go gauge. If the 0.011" is loose (go), and the 0.013" will not clear (no-go), your clearance is a nominal 0.012" check.

.

The gauge I made to check couple trip pin height is 0.020"/0.040", so I am 100% sure that all of my couplet trip pins are between 0.020" and 0.040" above the rail head. I have found this works perfectly with #308 under-the-tie uncouplers.

.

-Kevin

.

Living the dream.

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Posted by Graham Line on Tuesday, September 4, 2018 2:38 PM

Beware of knock-offs of the Kadee pliers. Some are better than others. Xuron markets pliers that have the reverse action, to open up the trip pin curve instead of closing it down. Our club car fleet had a problem with a former member who "Dilberted" trip pins so they would curve up like Dilbert's necktie.

If you search for "Bob-Mac Gage Company," they offer an excellent insulated go-no go gage to check coupler height and trip pin positioning.

Many times I find that an out of position coupler is due to slop in the coupler box -- generally they have too much top-to-bottom space and the coupler droops. I use either thin (.005-.010") styrene to shim the opening so the coupler sits level. It's also nice to adjust this without monkeying with the car's ride height.

Lately, I've been saving shiny paper and plastic offcuts to use as shims.

One of our club members has drawn and laser cut shims that fit precisely inside the bottom of the coupler box to take up the excessive travel.

We keep the trip pins because they are the easiest way available to check for correct side-to-side swing and coupler centering. On an operating layout with a lot of switching, this is essential.

 

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Posted by Paul3 on Tuesday, September 4, 2018 1:08 PM

riogrande5761,
As you noted, sometimes the pliers slip off.  If it grabs the knuckle while you're still squeezing, it'll bend it.

The Kadee pliers are faster and more controllable.  I've seen some really bent up trip pins where they turn them into fish hooks from squeezing too hard...which can become a problem when coupling to a snowplow-equipped diesel.

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