I have a Hallmark GE U33C. It is one of the quietest locomotives that I have. Considering that brass locomotives are notoriously noiser than plastic I am very pleased with it. I runs very smoothly, will creep along with no jerkyness on my code 55 track and will take #5 switches with no problems. I am planning paint it in BN Cascade green and black in th near future.
Ira
The only recent engine I paid a "true" market price was my OMI C&O G9 2-8-0 that I needed as its the closest prototype to BC&G #13 as she was based on that class of C&O engine. My big GE will so be replaced by a OMI SW1500, more prototypical for a start up shortline than the other engine. The rest of my pieces I have gotten for good prices at shows, thru trades and online. But many models are rare enough that you have to "pay the piper" if you want to add one to your railroad. My friend wants one of the late run OMI ES44AC's in the KCS Belle scheme, only 37 imported and it will cost him if he ever finds one that is for sale. Yes there are cheaper options for the engine, but then again, like me he prefers the "feel" and look of brass. Mike the Aspie
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
With OMI diesels, it doesnt help that Ajin kept changing designs of the drives all the time. Once they found that sweet spot, they needed to stick with it. My 1988 run GE 8-40B runs smooth and glass with nothing more than a basic lubrication as it was bone dry. Every modeler, no matter what they run for locomotives, need to learn to do that kind of maintance. Do you trust the Chinese factory worker to have properly lubricated the $200+ plastic engine any more than we trust the Korean to have done the same to the $250-900+ brass diesel. Go see what the Division Point Krauss Maffei's sell for, not for the faint of heart! My sole gripe is someone that says all brass runs like crap. Thats like me saying any engine with DCC is trash. I dont care for it myself, but its neat and if others love it, great. I guess I was introduced to brass the "correct" way via an older "elmer" that steered me to a model that ran well to start with and would only get better with use. So I avoided the pitfall of a poor running model that takes tons of time and effort to get acceptable performance out of. Once I learned how to work on and repair brass, I sought out those poor runners as they were cheap. Making them run well is one facet of the hobby I really enjoy. I have worked on the newer diecast and plastic steam from several brands and never want to deal with one again. Brass steam is soooo much simplier to take apart and service, even the articulated ones. Same for diesels, 4-8 screws in most and the frame assembly can be lifted clear of the body thats upside down in my foam cradle. Try squeezing the body of the Athearn blue box era 4 axle GP's after detailing one to look like brass. I put micro plugs on my lighting circuits so they can be easily unhooked when I pull the chassis out of my diesels as well. By planning ahead when I install the stuff, I make my life easier when I do need to take one apart for service. Mike the Aspie
Some brass models (the newer ones) run a lot better if they don't wobble, short out, or have DCC installed.
Newer brass runs better, but is waaay more pricey than older brass.
I'm sure that most brass locomotive can be made to good runners. The question is only how much talent and effort is needed for the necessary tune-up. The tune-up can go from lubrication of the locomotive to total disassembly including running gear, new quartering of steam locomotive drivers with anything in-between.
Just removing resinified grease from the gears can be "fun". I'm one of those who are not very talented for this kind of work and made it worse with my own efforts. For my brass steam locomotive from the 1970s-1980s it cost me an average of 150 Euro ($180) to make them excellent runners, including a new motor.
Yes they are good runners now. For models of the 1990s onwards the chance is much better that they run good out of the box.
I'm not trying to hold back people from buying brass models, even as untalented I am I would buy brass again when I really want a model, just warn possible buyers what they might encounter. If not all the better.Regards, Volker Regards, Volker
I've actually gotten most of my brass pieces for less than modern plastic and diecast models. Aside from one Hallmark/Kumata diesel with poorly manufactured trucks that fell apart, they've all been great runners that rarely needed more than a tune-up or simple motor replacement (although I've done other things beyond that anyway). My newest brass piece, a Westside/Samhongsa 4-4-0, is probably 40 years old and glides like it's running on air. My oldest one is either an Akane 4-8-8-2 or Ken Kidder 0-4-0T from the early 60's, and both of those are also smooth as can be.
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I've had a love/hate relationship with Overland diesels.
Some can be simply amazing, are very well built, and look gorgeous, and run equally as well. Others had manufacturing defects. My local dealer returned some with problems, was told they had been repaired, and received the same engines back--still having the problems. Some have excessive camber or excessive distress in the bodies (for me, noticeable across a room, especially with painted diesel frame stripes--I can see the bowing). Nobody wants that on a $900 diesel. Others look like they are well worth the $900...
You can find plastic engines of the exact same models that also have bowing problems. One of the issues with manufacturing HO models is that the tolerances are so tight that longer engines--65' or so prototype length--well, it's hard to keep them straight.
Some folks mishandled the brass and bent the handrail stanchions badly. I won't buy those engines, period. I want the ones that haven't been mishandled. If the handrail stanchions are badly bent, it can be difficult the straighten the stanchions without breaking solder joints--and then the superglue repairs--well some people are pigs.
Today's plastic engines have considerable handrail issues. Folks complained about the delrin handrails because they didn't hold paint well or had to be primed, thus they ended up looking "too thick", but the delrin handrails don't break or very rarely. Today's ABS/celcon/what have you handrails will hold paint, and can be glued, but are way too easily broken.
The best handrails ever done in plastic I consider to be the Proto 2000 Alco RS-27. Very fine scale handrails, dyed delrin plastic, and the plastic dye colors have so far held up very well, continuing to match the paint colors very nicely. They are exceptional--and nice Proto 2000 RS-27's can sometimes bring more money than the brass ones if they have the sound and dcc already in them.
As with buying anything, it helps to be very well informed regarding all the plusses and minuses of what you are actually buying. To me, the gear noise of a brace of Overland tower gear drive engines breaking in will always sound neat, and I'd rather hear that than some of the engine sounds in the chips.
I'm waiting for the "right" Overland, Challenger, or Oriental Limited Alco Century to turn up, and then I hope to buy one...or maybe get back one of the ones I let get away in the past.
John
Personaly, I do not buy brass to be a snob, or elitist. I like the "feel" of brass, the durablity of brass handrails/grab irons vs the break if you look at them wrong plastic. I handle my engines, moreso a few years ago than now as back then I would take my engines to the local club to run. I went thru phases of having a boat load of nicely detailed Athearn blue box power. But now, I prefer to have just a couple really really nice engines. Right now they are unpainted, but that will change soon. I am looking for someone now that is resonable on price and turn around time, professional quality finish, and can handle the Susquehanna bumblebee paint scheme. The other neat part of owning and running a brass engine, espically once its nicely painted is running at shows and someone asks what brand your engine is as it glides by pulling a nice long freight train. Its neat to see the expression when they find out its brass, usually followed by the comment. "I didn't think brass ran that nicely?" Which I have personally heard more than once when running my models at shows. To disprove that misconception is quite enjoyable. I have gotten more than one naysayer to buy thier first piece of brass after seeing some of my models run. But they did it with both eyes open and asking questions. As, there are plenty of duds that are plain trash when it comes to thier drive system. Most can be fixed (NWSL is your friend here). But plenty more run beautifully. The late 1980s/early 1990's is my cut off for affordablity right now. Not gonna spend upwards of $800 for a single Overland diesel or way more for Division Point(Really want one of their DRGW Krauss Maffei's). But I will buy every OMI diesel for $100 that I find and have the funds in my wallet at that moment.
PRR8259My youngest son decided he wanted to get a big screen TV. He sold his brass hybrid steamer, with brass showing on all drivers, for very nearly exactly what we paid for it. So much for brass "not holding its value"--and that was only a hybrid.
Yes, there examples but you should look carefully. I once bought a Tenshodo GN L-1 2-6-6-2. Today I would get 20% more than the original price. Looks good but I bought the locomotive in the late 1980s. Inflation has long since taken care of the increase.
Yes the are locomotives, that hold their price. A few W&R models come to mind. If someone wants to use brass as investment he/she should do it with surplus money.
None of my brass locomotives, and it is quite a number, has held its value inflation adjusted.
PRR8259There is a lot of quality HO brass out there that runs very well, from older Westside and Max Gray steam engines of the later 1960's, up to today's gorgeous museum quality models.
You are right, there are a lot good running brass locomotives out there. But two locomotives of the same manufacturer, importer, type, and year can be completely depending on the care they received.
And then there locomotives from the 1980s with early Japanes coreless motors. Over the years the magnets lost their power. The Tenshodo GN L-1 and a Westside SP T-1 4-6-0 overheated the motor running light.
So there always can be surprises. If you have the talent for tinkering brass and get fun from it OK. Otherwise you should look in the ebay offers how the locomotive runs. No information can mean it was not tested, or it was tested but ran not so good. In both cases there can be a surprise coming. If you are not sure buy at a dealer where you can test it. Ok, I know how difficult this is today.Regards, Volker
emdmike--
Thank you for sharing. I think I get it.
Unfortunately, there are those whose minds on both sides of this issue are fully "made up", who will simply not be persuaded.
I have seen the very best, and the not so good, of HO brass, and there are people on these forums who absolutely positively hate brass and think any of us who like it at all are a bunch of rich elitists. Nothing could be further from the truth.
For the record, I ended up needing the cash, and at the current time all my locomotives, and all of my sons' locomotives, are good 'ole plastic. No hybrids left. My youngest son decided he wanted to get a big screen TV. He sold his brass hybrid steamer, with brass showing on all drivers, for very nearly exactly what we paid for it. So much for brass "not holding its value"--and that was only a hybrid.
There is a lot of quality HO brass out there that runs very well, from older Westside and Max Gray steam engines of the later 1960's, up to today's gorgeous museum quality models. As great as some of the recent HO plastic operates, there are brass models out there that will simply outperform it. (Note: I'm not saying all brass will do that so don't misquote me, but some of it certainly will outperform).
I will make 2 new videos here in a little bit, both are super smooth, even at slow speeds. The saying "Brass runs like crap" is a generalization I hear over and over again, here, on facebook and at shows. Both of those models are pretty much raw from the box, with only a basic lube with a needle oiler. I have done NOTHING else to them, no modifications to handle that curve. Only addition to each model was Kaydee couplers, good ol number 5's to be exact. There is some really crappy models out there, not just in brass. Even Overland had some real duds over the years and not just some of the early models. That steamer is one off thier earlier models from a not so great Korean builder, but this one runs really well. As did an Alco Models NYC G46H 2-8-0 that was a RoK Am build that I used to own. I still know the owner and it still runs well he uses it on his local peddler freight, so it gets lots of slow speed operation as he is deep into realistic operation. It has a similar drive to this OMI 2-8-0. As with any major purchase, consult others, if you buy a dud without asking others in the know about it, or atleast taking it to the test track prior to the green backs changing hands, then that mistake is on you alone. I research, ask questions and either see it run in person or in a video if buying online. Just because I have all brass motive power, doesn't mean I have depth of wallet. I chose a few really nice brass engines, over having a bunch of nice plastic ones. All you hear about are peoples problems with thier brass or what have you. So I made a postive one. I was floored that the big GE went around the curves without derailing or shorting out. The GE was imported in 1988, so its no spring chicken in age.
BRAKIEMark,Back in the 60s I had a United Santa Fe 1950 class 2-8-0 that would creep from fiber tie to fiber tie. My United UP 0-6-0 would do the same.
Yes but just these locomotives are more than 50 years older now. If the were run a lot they might need a gear replacement now and the wheel treads might be pure brass now. If they weren't run there is a good chance one needs to remove resinified grease. The running gear might got bend and so on.Regards, Volker
I have brass steam locomotives from the 1970s that ran right away. Others from the same time needed a lot of work. With the early South Korea built locomotives it got even worse.
As Mark said try very slow speeds (crawling). The speed in the video might cover slight hesitations.
Overland diesel locomotives are similar. Those with the two gear towers over the trucks are usually good runner. The earlier ones with the tank drive can be tricky.
It can be really "fun" to remove resinified grease from the gears.
The two videos don't change my judgement about brass locomotives in any way.Regards, Volker
Pruitt Road speeds are one thing. How smoothly do the models run at scale yard speeds of 3-4 mph, with reversing moves and such?
Road speeds are one thing. How smoothly do the models run at scale yard speeds of 3-4 mph, with reversing moves and such?
Mark,Back in the 60s I had a United Santa Fe 1950 class 2-8-0 that would creep from fiber tie to fiber tie. My United UP 0-6-0 would do the same.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
riogrande5761Obviously some brass does run like crap but some runs very well too; it really depends on the item, the run and other factors.
Jim,Back in the 50/60s brass steam engines from Japan was far better in the running department then brass diesels.
Younger modelers like my oldest Grandson is having the best models handed to them on a silver platter and they don't know it..
Sad but,true.
Re: the title of this topic "For those that say brass runs like crap", how can you make a generalization like that. Obviously some brass does run like crap but some runs very well too; it really depends on the item, the run and other factors. Title of this topic reads like "click-bate".
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
emdmikeSecond video link, you will have to cut and paste, cant get the quick link to work
See if this works?
Well, Overland — yes, my Overland models run just fine, too. Alco, Balboa, Arkane, maybe not so much. I can usually fix a poor motor or gear problem but wobbly wheels is a problem I sometimes encounter and that can be more of a challenge.
Thank You, Ed
I am impressed with that big GE going around those tight curves. Did you need to modify the mechanism?
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-Kevin
Living the dream.
Second video link, you will have to cut and paste, cant get the quick link to work
https://youtu.be/VDG9brUAgSg
Here are two short videos I took tonight, first is my early Overland/Rok Am (imported in 1977) running around my traction layout(15" radius Atlas snap track), only thing I did to her was relubricate everything. Powered by a small Sagami can motor with an idler gear box to the second driver. Second video is my Overland/Ajin GE Dash8-40B, a monster 4 axle engine running around the same layout. A basic lube job was all she got as well. While it looks absurd, it just proves my point even further. The proper trains are sitting in the middle, 2 PE cars from Suydam and a CA&E car from Soho. Enjoy! Mike the Aspie
https://youtu.be/cdmQ86nINVc