I did not single out eBay as there are several other on-line auctions with model trains including both Sotheby's and Christies, although not as frequent as Stout, Maurer and of course...eBay.
For years I was against these auctions as I thought not only was time being robbed from working on the railroad, but spending well-earned dollars on items not really needed, but pursued due to the thrill of the auction....and of course coming out as the high bidder. I was also concerned about the future of the LHS...now mostly reduced to supplying staples, whereas the big ticket models are mostly being purchased on-line, be it auction or web site. Now smart LHS owners are going on-line and being competitive again rather than crying foul.
I could not go on being a critic of on-line auctions as I find myself also in the game.
I'd be interested in how you folks may feel how on-line activity and auctions are affecting our hobby. I'm just not sure now if it is positive or negative.
HZ
The loss of local hobby shops is hurting the hobby.
.
Whether or not on line auctions are contributing to the loss of local hobby shop or not, I am not really sure.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Howard, my guess is that it has no impact when talking about upper tier brass and old stock. Regular day to day consumer stuff, who knows? Personally I just try to spend a minimum of 30% of my annual purchases at the LHS. If I haven’t balanced that at the end of the year, I’ll buy something(s) at the LHS for full retail regardless of the online options. Financially stupid, local economy and morally correct in my book.
I think the biggest impact of auction sites is when it’s the only way to get something. Current case in point: BLI’s rolling thunder. I have 5 RT locos, but the RT receiver has not been available for at least 8 months. I’ve emailed BLI with a politely worded version of why-t-blank isn’t the critical component of your Rolling Thunder system available? I get a generic response of “we will let you know when that item is back in stock.” There are a few (very few) options online (including auctions) for the receiver and subwoofer combo, buy I could care less. I have 3 powered subwoofers sitting a closet. Don’t need another. Point being BLI has forced one of their products to the secondary market (actually tertiary market because the LHSs are out of luck as well), for an inexplicable reason.
Howard,
First, Ebay in particular has changed from years ago, but in any event it allows used/previously owned new old stock, to reach way more buyers than any 20 train shows - faster and easier.
As for the "thrill of the auction", well either you are an addict, or not.
Personally, I can find someting I want on Ebay, place a maximum bid, and forget it. Either I win, or I don't.
Local hobby shops - the problem with local hobby shops is price and selection, period.
In today's world, if I have to wait for my local shop to order something, I may as well just order it myself.
Once again, when I ran the train department at Glen Burnie Hobby World, way back in the late 70's, we couild see this coming. Big dealers who could buy direct, and have big, complete inventories, at discount prices, were already making it tough for small shops.
Forget about mail order or the internet, the decline of the smaller local shop started well before either of those. Just ask Ted K.
Customers would drive right past our store in Glen Burnie, and drive 15-20 minutes more up the road, fight bad city parking, drug addicts and hookers, to save 20%..........and we had a good selection of stuff for that time.
Now all they need do is sit down in front of a computer, you do the math.
Limited runs and preorders - this too hurts the local shops and drives the world wide web shoping. But the changes in the products, and the hobby, seem to pretty much demand this approach.
All the great stores back in the day had one thing in common - depth and breadth of inventory - and the ones that lowered prices survived the changes in the hobby.
Sheldon
No, eBay is my last choice. My LHS is first, and online shops like Trainworld are next.
eBay is for things long out of production. It can be useful in that way.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Definitely positive. For one thing I know my experience with local hobby shops has been either a. They don't have anything b. They're never open c. They're a million miles away d. They're out of business after maybe a year or two or e. The owner is a contankerous old jerk who makes it seem like you're an inconvenience just for shopping there. Now maybe other people have had differnet experiences but those were mine and that's why I do my train shopping mostly online.
The layout I am currently building is a trip down memory lane, back into my childhood days. Track, engines, cars and accessories are a minumum of 30 years old, most of the stuff is closer to 60 years old. Without online auctioning platforms - mainly Ebay - I would not be able to source the things I need or it would take me years and lot. A few rare items, like a tinplate two-stall engine house from 1955, don´t come cheap, but to find one on a train show is close to impossible. I got mine from a seller in France for a high, but still reasonable price.
I actualkly do nearly all my buying through Ebay, even the new stuff. There is no LHS around in my neck of the woods and I don´t want to spend $ 20 in gas and parking, only to find out the stuff I need is not on stock and if it is, I have to pay full RRP for it. Ebay let´s me compare prices and find the best deal in no time at all.
IMHO, online auctions or online shops (which bay has turned into) support the hobby, not hurt it!
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
i think of ebay as a time-machine ... it allows me to find old locos and rolling stock that has been out-of-production for decades. (i'm interested in Philadelphia and Reading RR).
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
YES
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I'm lucky as I now live in north central Maryland and we have several really good train shops close by, but I do remember my many forays into shops throughout the country whereas some attitudes were............"what are you doing here", and there was once a shop in Silver Spring where as when you walked in, the owner would toss a Walthers catalog at you with the utmost of unfriendlyness flavored with arrogance. My last trip there I tossed the catolog back at him, let go an F-bomb and just left.
Being the old dinosaur that I am, I do pine for the days of yore, when hobby shops were great, well stocked, centers of knowledge, and Saturday morning gathering places for modelers of all skill levels.
I purchased my first computer in 2000, reluctantly at first, but now I find that on- ordering is quite simple, offers decent prices, and is available 24/7. There is one drawback....I and many of you know what you are shopping for, but what about the newbie, or the prospect who may want to enter the hobby?
Overall, my opinion now is overwhelming in support of on-line auctions and shopping as I do feel when the dust finally settles, the answer is "yes", the hobby is being helped by on-line activity. The comments about driving sometimes long distances to a LHS and find that what you want is not in stock, but could be ordered with a deposit or full payment up front, and possibly receive it in a week or two vs. punching a few keys at 4 AM and have it here within two days, and at a better price.....is a very strong and valid argument for on-line vs. LHS.
My ten bucks..............
I think it brings more products to more people. More selection available to everyone, and that's a good thing.
A hobby shop that has plenty of stock is a good thing. Whether its a brick and mortar shop or an online shop doesn't matter to me.
What I don't like is limited selection. And I'm not sure if the product delivery system migtrating from B&M shops to online shops have created more of a pre-order/limited run atmosphere to the hobby than what I remember. If so, than that is a bad thing, IMO.
- Douglas
I don't have a LOCAL hobby shop. Closest is Hartmann's over in Intervale, an hour and a quarter drive. Or I can go all the way to Charles Ro in Malden, a three hour drive. Them's ain't local. I have to order even simple stuff like Kadee #5's.
Old Ron Nadeau at the North Shore club, who enjoyed loading up and taking all the club extra stuff to train shows, once told me that anything really nice that came into his hands he would put on E-bay, far better prices than at train shows. He finished up by saying he didn't know why he bothered to go to shows anymore, other than he kinda liked doing it.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
We have to add the online so-called swap groups on Yahoo, Facebook and Groups.IO If find searching those sites is tedious at best and if I find something bargain priced, it is already sold.
Because there are so many sellers on Ebay, finding something that is long out of stock is often easier than going to multiple train shows and never seeing it. The downside of auction sites is that postage sometimes more than your LHS sales tax, like lift rings, $3.50 to buy and 4.95 to ship.
Unlike Sheldon, I always enjoyed driving through Baltimore's "Block". These women seeking employment never surrounded my car like the homeless and squeege kids do now.
A well stocked hobby shop always had things you didn't know they made or didn't know you needed, until you saw them. Unless you have hours to peruse Ebay, that doesn't happen.
The genie is out of the bottle now, and Barbara Eden is not going back in
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I have bought only one item on Ebay because the kit was out of production. In fact, the manufacturer was out of business. The closest exclusive MRR shop is a 30 minute drive, and I am not going to travel that far because I need 5$ worth of couplers. Plus it is really small with very limited stock. I have heard that the only thing which is keeping it afloat is the website thy run. There was one MRR shop which opened up a few years ago about 15 minutes away, but it was out of business within a year. A second one opened up at the same location and met the same fate in lss than a year.
There is a LHS, about 10 minutes away, but the MRR section is rather weak. I do patronize it for items like styrene and WS turf, grass, paints etc.
I have bought virtually all my locomotives, track, rolling stock, electronics etc. on-line, except for Litchfield Station which is located in the next town over, through vendors like Caboose Hobbies, ModelTrainStuff, and Train Sets Only.
The short answer is there are some negative aspects and some positive aspects, mostly positive.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
I would argue that on line shopping has saved the hobby...not hurt it. I only have one (small) LHS within an hours drive and he has little to offer. He can order stuff in current production but I can do that myself on line and have it faster and typically cheaper. Meanwhile, via on line and the auction sites, I have access to virtually anything I want and I can shop around for prices. On a unique item or out of production item, I can often find what I want even if the price is high. However, if that item is critical to me, the price may be worth it. I am finding that train show vendors are typically no bargan and often are selling at full MSRP. Many of the specialized electronic widgets I need can be found cheap from Hong Kong and I am willing to wait 6 weeks for delivery.
If not for the on line sources, the hobby would really suffer. Serious modelers would not be able to locate the special items they want from around the world and new beginners would not be able to afford to build beyond a basic box of trains from Christmas season. If the on line sources did not keep the hobby alive, the limited life left in the LHS would be totally gone.
Paul D
N scale Washita and Santa Fe RailroadSouthern Oklahoma circa late 70's
I don't see auctions having that much affect on the hobby as a whole. It's another venue for selling used stuff. It probably helps sellers get more money. Of course that means buyers pay more.
Changing from bricks and mortar to on line helps the hobby by making it easy for anyone to order stuff. But shipping charges do hurt those on a limited budget who can only make small purchases.
Where switching to on line does hurt, is exposing the hobby to new people. When you had local general purpose hobby shops that carried trains and when toy stores sold electric trains, I think there was more general awareness of trains. I know there's youtube and others, but you still have to know to go looking. With toy stores, you would see the trains even when shopping for something else, same with the general purpose hobby shops.
Of course the real question is: are there more people in the hobby now? has the hobby grown proportional to population growth? This gets argued a lot and there seems to be no hard eveidence either way. Plus we can't even agree on who to include.
Paul
I don’t really like auctions because if I want something I want it. I don’t want to bid on it and not get it. And because internet auctions work like a silent auction instead of a live auction I get annoyed because you can’t raise your bid at the last moment. I’ve lost auctions at the very last second because someone comes along and enters a bid and you don’t get a chance to up it. There is no, “going once, twice, sold” like a live auction. To me that seems bad for the bidders, the sellers, and the website. They could easily change that by adding a minute to the clock every time someone places a bid. So because of that among other reasons I would rather just “buy it now.” That way I know I get what I wanted. As for buying and selling on the internet, I think it is great. My local hobby shop just closed but they were poorly managed and they refused to have an on-line presence. When there is a fundamental change in the way people do business you have to change with it or perish. On the other hand an eBay seller who I recently purchased something from announced that they were opening a brick and mortar model railroad store. Their on-line sales were good enough that they could open a real store to work out of so people could buy items from them on-line or in their store. Anyway because model railroaders tend to have a shopping list of items we need to complete our layouts and local hobby shops or big mainstream “hobby stores” which are actually arts and craft stores don’t have the items on our list we have to shop on the internet to find them. Probably 90% of the items I buy on-line are model railroad related because I can’t buy them in a local store. Almost all of my other shopping needs I go to a store to buy. The exception is of course items that I can’t find in a local store. I can order a car part from Autozone or O’Riley’s or I can drive, ride a bike, or walk the one mile to the store and get it immediately. Why wait?
This discussion is somewhat academic regarding b&m hobby shops. Why? Because there is already a pervasive shift in many sectors to online sales.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
basementdwellerI find myself using Ebay far less than 10 years ago. I still get on it from time to time but in general I have got away from it, the bargains on there are far less nowadays i think.
Yes but I shop for things long sold out that I can't find anywhere else, which obviously is what eBay can be most useful for, not so much new on the market models. For those sold out items, I can usually find what I need at good prices still with a little patience.
One thing I wonder is for those of you who prefer to shop online - are you loyal to a particular online merchant? or do you strictly shop by price and availability?
Both of course. I've found a few vendors which have good service and prices and mbk is usually best of them, but a couple others often as well depending on items and availability.
Otherwise i prefer to visit my local train shop 40 some miles away, sometimes just to see what is on the shelves. I would say I am 50 / 50 between LHS and online.
I would call 40 miles exactly local. I live way out west of Washington DC and there just aren't any decent b&m shops to get the things I need. So online and a couple trips to Timoniom a year is the only real options but they work well enough.
The other day I watched an interview with Florian Sieber, the CEO of Marklin in Germany. He sees the secondhand market being readily accessible to buyers through platforms like Ebay as a real challenge to the industry, as used stock is competing for the buyer´s $$$ in a market with limited growth potential. Furthermore, he predicted the secondhand market to grow as large collections hit it with the passing of their owners.
From that point of you one could say that on-line auctions/shops hurt the industry.
However, I do remember him saying that the industry must pick up the challenge by developing a new customers base among younger people again, on the basis of affordable models.
Time will tell whether this is the right recipe!
Tinplate Toddler The other day I watched an interview with Florian Sieber, the CEO of Marklin in Germany. He sees the secondhand market being readily accessible to buyers through platforms like Ebay as a real challenge to the industry, as used stock is competing for the buyer´s $$$ in a market with limited growth potential. Furthermore, he predicted the secondhand market to grow as large collections hit it with the passing of their owners. From that point of you one could say that on-line auctions/shops hurt the industry. However, I do remember him saying that the industry must pick up the challenge by developing a new customers base among younger people again, on the basis of affordable models. Time will tell whether this is the right recipe!
And my response to him would be this, I would be happy to not buy "used" trains on the secondary market if I could walk into a store, or go on a web site, and buy 95% of my needs new, when I need/want them.
But this industry has demonstrated that it cannot or will not do that.
I don't like buying "used" stuff. Most of the secondary market products I do buy are "new old stock", still in their "virgin" state, never on the rails.......
I'm not a collector, of brass or other "old" trains, just for the sake of collecting, I'm a modeler. I much prefer to buy things others have not "messed around with".
But this hobby is what it is, and the "modeling" side of it appears to be getting even smaller, so we do what we have to do........
For me, the big irony in his comments are the fact that he runs the biggest "ready to run" company in the history of the hobby, a group of products I have zero interest in.
Every Trix/Marklin product of a North American prototype I have ever seen has compromises for tight radius performance that I consider unacceptable at their price levels.
But I agree with one thing, the soultion for manufacturers is to grow the market, regardless of the age of those new customers......
IRONROOSTER Of course the real question is: are there more people in the hobby now? has the hobby grown proportional to population growth? This gets argued a lot and there seems to be no hard eveidence either way. Plus we can't even agree on who to include. Paul
And this is the real question, that every manufacturer and retailer would like to know.
But even if the number of modelers has kept pace with population growth, the industry, manufacturers and retialers alike, is still at a disadvantage compared to years ago.
With each passing year those modelers interesst are spread over an ever increasing number of eras and prototype possiblities. Models whos prototypes did not exist 10 years ago, or twenty, or thrity......
Despite any limited accuracy of models in the past, the fact remains that back then it was easier for manufacturers to "cover" the desired prototypes because there were far fewer of them.
Combine that with today's desire for better, more detailed, more accurate models, and you need a big box store to have a representive inventory today, assuming the products were available.
Retailers, especially brick and mortar retailers, cannot live on preorder "vapor ware". They need products on thier shelves.
So selling less and less of more and more different items is a tough goal for any manufacturing and distribution chain.
Model trains have always been made in relatively small runs, or batches. But years ago the number different items being less, and the volumes the market supported of each item, made it feel like most stuff was available most of the time.
No longer true.
The first solution as this problem grew was the "Train Show" where vendors of all sorts could get their "new old stock" in view of different buyers. This worked for while.
Today the interweb is that "train show".
And Howard had misgivings at first about the auction format, but every train show he ever put on had people negotiating prices.......
ATLANTIC CENTRALEvery Trix/Marklin product of a North American prototype I have ever seen has compromises for tight radius performance that I consider unacceptable at their price levels.
Which might be the correct attitude, when you live in the US and have what we would say "unlimited space" available for the hobby. Europe is very much different, and a model which cannot safely negotiate an R1 curve - that´s a radius of 360mm - will simply not sell. Add to that the fact that the US market is a negligible quantity for most of the European manufacturers, which is actually a pity! Gone are the days of cooperation to harvest benefits from economies of scale...
I have my doubts, though, that Sieber will succeed - in the long run. IMHO, the hobby has to look back from where it once came - affordable models, sufficient, but not super-detailed and after-marketr solutions for those who need electronic bells and whistles (pun intended) to run their trains.
Despite living in America, I also have limited space. I actually have some Marklin analog equipment from my old layout with R1 and R2 curves. But Marklin lost me when they dropped the Hobby line. At the time I wasn't interested in upgrading my analog fleet, or the cost of purchasing Marklin's digital equipment. Fast forward a few years, I got back into the hobby with with U.S. prototype DCC equipment. However, in the same small space, I only buy small steam locomotives, 0-6-0, 2-6-0, 4-6-0. As newer locomotives have more scale fidelety, I doubt I'll ever purchase anything larger. I often wonder if I'm in the minority with this issue, or are the more like me out there.
Frank
Tinplate Toddler wrote the following post 3 hours ago: ATLANTIC CENTRAL Every Trix/Marklin product of a North American prototype I have ever seen has compromises for tight radius performance that I consider unacceptable at their price levels. Which might be the correct attitude, when you live in the US and have what we would say "unlimited space" available for the hobby. Europe is very much different
wrote the following post 3 hours ago: ATLANTIC CENTRAL Every Trix/Marklin product of a North American prototype I have ever seen has compromises for tight radius performance that I consider unacceptable at their price levels.
Which might be the correct attitude, when you live in the US and have what we would say "unlimited space" available for the hobby. Europe is very much different
And a correct attitude it is to the majority of us here. Keep in mind the overall context here is US/north Amrican model trains as is the majority of the forum participants as would be logical. So while you regularly interject the European angle here, it is generally "out of scope" to those of us born and raised and still living here in MR country. Europians will work within a system that they are accustomed to be but we here can't really relate to it much. Apologies, those are not the droids we are looking for.
Lone Wolf and Santa Fe I don’t really like auctions because if I want something I want it. I don’t want to bid on it and not get it.
I don’t really like auctions because if I want something I want it. I don’t want to bid on it and not get it.
Honestly who does really like auctions? I don't either, but lets see, it's either that or go with out eh? I prefer BIN on Ebay but I do bid on items and actually I do watches on items and regularly see people putting a single bid in and getting the item at the end of the auction for the minimum bid.
Of course the best way to do Ebay bids is bid what you are willing to pay that's above a current bid and either you get it or not. Annoying? Yes. But life is annoying. But I've found I actually win the item more often than lose it at the price I am willing to pay - in the end I get the item I want and thats a good thing. In fact it's been too good a thing in the last few months because I've managed to catch up on a bunch of items I missed from past runs, "NIB old stock items" at "decent" prices but it's really hammered my budget.
And because internet auctions work like a silent auction instead of a live auction I get annoyed because you can’t raise your bid at the last moment. I’ve lost auctions at the very last second because someone comes along and enters a bid and you don’t get a chance to up it.
Are you talking about the automatic bid programs that people use to outbid you at the last second of an Ebay auction? My answer to that is I put in my maximum bid that I am willing to pay, and if I win it good, if not, I wasn't willing to pay more anyway. Problem solved. Otherwise you may have to bid more than you want to pay to out bid someone in the last second, which is bad in my option.
When there is a fundamental change in the way people do business you have to change with it or perish.
Basically that's the situation today, and it's not train shops, it's many genres. My wife buys here cloths on line because she has found creative ways to save money, often buying items worn once or twice, getting a nice brand name for very low price. There is a pervasive shift and it's the way of things and individually we adapt or get left behind and shake our fist at the world, and many are doing that in forums. But change is hard for many - I get it - sometime I whinge about change too.
riogrande5761Honestly who does really like auctions?
I do!
I go to live auctions at least once a month, and I am always active on eBay.
I went to an estate sale three weeks ago in Ocala and scored a large collection of Porcelain Incence Burners from Occupied Japan (1945-1955) for $5.00!
You never know what you will find or who will be there bidding.
SeeYou190 I do!
A few in every crowd.
Here in the northern Virginia area there is something almost better than auctions, there are Facebook garage sale sites and there are lots of posh people around here getting rid of nice things for low cost. All you have to do is be first to claim something and the seller will hold it for you. Since we have a fixer upper house needing anything from tools to furniture to you name it, we've been getting lots of good things for cheap.
riogrande5761 there are Facebook garage sale sites
Heck yeah!
My wife watched those constantly. Never found any train stuff worth having.
We did get a signed cel from my daughter's favorite Disney movie for $50.00 from one of those. That was our best score to date.