Diaphragm question

[RR_Mel]

Diaphragm question.

 

I tried using Walthers 933-429 HO diaphragms on my Athearn Streamlined Passenger cars about 10 years ago and it wasn’t very successful.  The cars derailed and became uncoupled constantly.  I recently have built up a heavy weight passenger train also using Athearn cars.

 

The Walthers diaphragms work very nicely on this round of heavy weights.  I put them through my 18” radius test S curve and they do very good.  The diaphragms are sloppy enough that they work great, they look horrible in a 18” radius but look very good in my minimum 26” radius curves.

 

The diaphragms were bought in several batches over several years and some have faded.  I tried coloring one using India Ink and that went very well.  My question is will the India Ink be a problem down the line and ding the diaphragms?  I wouldn’t want the India Ink to ding the material with constant flexing.

 

Any and all responses welcome.  

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[mlehman]

Mel,

The main issue with India Ink will be the alcohol. If that hasn't caused an issue by the time it's dried, then I'd say you're good to go.

[RR_Mel]

Well the answer to my question is don’t use India Ink to color your Walthers Diaphragms.  I did two cars (4 diaphragms) and the India Ink stiffened them up and now I have derailing problems.  I have been trying to exercise them manually to get them to flex more but to no avail.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions to darken Walthers 933-429 Diaphragms?

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[Paul3]

Try a black Sharpie on those old paper diaphragms.

But honestly, I wouldn't use these in the first place.  As you have discovered, they are too stiff to actually work correctly.  They also don't look all that realistic, either (well, not without some extra detailing).

American Limited makes some good ones, and I've also started using the Hi-Tech Details ones.  Both will flex and both look much better than the old Walthers ones.

http://www.americanlimitedmodels.com/ho-passenger-car-diaphragms/

http://www.hitechdetails.com/Hi-Tech-P_Car_Diaphragms.html

BTW, one cool thing about the Walthers paper diaphragms?  They are the very last thing that Walthers actually makes here in the USA.  Deep in the Walthers facility is the ancient machine that makes these, and there may be only one or two guys at Walthers that actually know how to operate it.

[RR_Mel]

Thanks Paul

 

I’ll give a Sharpie a shot, shoulda thought about that myself.  I’ve tried several diaphragms and had problem with everything but this version from Walthers.  They’re sloppy enough that they work very good on my Athearn cars in my 24” radius curves and my tight Atlas turnouts.

 

 

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[gmpullman]

Hi,

Sometimes, the rubberized canvas wasn't always black.

4787-001 by John W. Barriger III National Railroad Library, on Flickr

In later years they were usually painted the carbody color. 

Sharpie has metallic silver pens that you could color the face plate with where they rub together and get shiny.

Regards, Ed

[RR_Mel]

Thanks Ed, I didn’t know they made a Metallic Silver Sharpie.

 

 

EDIT:

 

I went to the Sharpie site and it says the Metallic Silver is an oil based paint marker.  I think I would get a better smother finish using my airbrush and Tru Color Paint.  My thinking is old shakey hands Mel can't apply the paint smooth enough to either not come off when the diaphragms are moving together or make them hang up and derail the cars from a ruff hand paint job.

 

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[robert sylvester]

I have tried several items to build diaphragms over the years then I happen to see the Video on Chuck Hithchcock's railroad-Argentine Yard-by Allen Keller. I actually started using the pleated diaphragms in the early sixties when I recieved my first Walther's Steam engine and heavy weight cars which for a ninth grader was absolutely great. Before that it was Lionel O guage.

During the tape Chuck demonstrates how he converts the the diaphragms to fit the passenger cars for his railroad. He uses first of all #5 Kadee couplers which are installed after being measured for the right distance to attach the coupler at the correct height to the car.

He then uses the pleated diaphgram-cutting off a complete section of one of the pleats-attache the remainder of the diagphram to the car with Goo thinned down with acetate, then he attaches the striker plate to the diaphgram and makes sure they are level and straight. By removing the first section of the pleating you remove just enough to give the correct distance between the diaphgrams of the two coaches with just enough separation not to complicate things. He smashes the diaphgrams to the car making sure it springs back. As Chuck says, "do not paint the diaphgrams but you can use a magic marker or sharpie -BLACK- and touch up the diaphgram.

 

Once you create the correct distance between diaphgrams they work well and look good. You need a relatively good curve radius, (30+ inches in radius), for them to really work well and look good. I have to have diaphgrams on all of my passenger cars- and the old pleated, (not the rubber), diaphgrams of 60+ years are still the best for me.

 

Robert

[RR_Mel]

I washed the four diaphragms that I colored with India Ink with 70% Alcohol several times and that seems to have taken care of the stiffness.  I have since colored them with a black Sharpie and that is the correct way to color the Walthers Diaphragms.  Using the Sharpie they remain flexible.

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[doctorwayne]

I used the rubber diaphragms, with metal striker plates, from MHP, on my A-B-B-A set of Globe F-units.  They worked well, even on the 22" radii on my original 4'x8' layout.
For my current passenger and express cars, I like the ones from American Limited.  These two cars have body-mounted couplers...

...while these two have truck-mounted couplers...

...and on these, the one on the left has body-mounted couplers and truck-mounted for the car on the right...

Cars are a mix of lengths and manufacturers (Athearn, MDC, Rivarossi, and Branchlne/Atlas).

Wayne

 

 

[SeeYou190]

I am also a fan and user of the American Limited diaphrams.

.

Currently they are only on my Stewart F units with the Kadee 450 coupler conversion, but they look and work great.

.

-Kevin

.

[doctorwayne]

I probably should have included these photos, too.

Body-mounted couplers (not sure which curve they're on, but most on the layout are 34" radius)...

...truck-mounted couplers...

...and one car with body-mounted, one with truck-mounted couplers...

I may revert to truck-mounting the couplers on all my passenger equipment - both appearance and performance are better.

Wayne

[RR_Mel]

Here are a pair of Walthers 933-429 Diaphragms after removing the India Ink with 70% Alcohol.  Their springiness has returned to very close to normal.

 

 

 

The two Heavy Weights are Athearn Sleepers painted SP Lark Grey.

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[Mark R.]

doctorwayne

 

 

 

I may revert to truck-mounting the couplers on all my passenger equipment - both appearance and performance are better.

Wayne

 

Curious as to how / why truck mounted couplers look better ? Operational-wise, don't truck mounted couplers try to push the trucks askew when shoving through curves ?

Mark.

[RR_Mel]

All of my passenger cars have truck mounted couplers and I can push them into my yard with out any problems. 

 

All but one are Athearn 72’ streamline or heavyweight cars, the oddball is an 85’ IHC heavyweight baggage car that I kitbashed to a 60’ RPO, it also has truck mounted couplers.

 

The turnouts in my yard and the approach turnouts are 18” radius Atlas code 83.  The heavyweight cars have three axle trucks and the streamline cars have two axle trucks.  I use Kadee #119 scale shelf couplers on all my passenger cars and passenger locomotives.

 

Everything running in my yard runs at a creep so no problems pushing.  My tightest radius outside of my yard is 26” and I can push them without problems at normal speeds.

 

I did have slight problems pushing the longer 85’ Bachmann cars (also truck mounted couplers), I didn’t keep them.  Not because of problems pushing them but because my layout isn’t large enough to support longer cars, 10’ x 14’.  The longer Bachmann cars run well just looked bad.  The 72’ Athearn cars are marginal for looks on my layout. 

 

The longest track on my layout between tunnel portals is 13’.  Ten 85’ cars are just under 12’, the locomotives were entering a tunnel as the observation cars were leaving a tunnel.  Throw in a couple of E7s for the streamline trains and a Cab Forward for the heavyweights the ten shorter 72’ cars look much better.

 

Mel

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[doctorwayne]

Mark R.

...Curious as to how / why truck mounted couplers look better ? Operational-wise, don't truck mounted couplers try to push the trucks askew when shoving through curves ?...

I should have been more specific, Mark.  The truck-mounted couplers themselves don't look any better, but do make the diaphragms look better on curves. Body-mounted couplers on 80' passenger cars are less forgiving of tight curves, too.

I've not had any issues with truck mounted couplers when pushing such cars through curves.  The cars are fairly heavy, although I did remove some weight from the Rivarossi cars, as the weight was having adverse effects on the styrene trucks, specifically with the axle tips wearing the plastic excessively.  When I can afford it, I want to re-fit those cars with Walthers trucks, then restore the weights.

Wayne

[Mark R.]

Sorry Wayne - I must be having a brain cramp .... how does truck mounted couplers vs. body mounted couplers affect how the diaphragms look ?

Given an identical track radius, the angle at which the diaphragms meet will be the same regardless of how the couplers are mounted. The only way to change that would be to alter the king pin location.

Mark. 

[robert sylvester]

Mel: I meant to tell you, the pleated diaphgrams on your heavy weights look great. Nice job. I think with my eye sight as it is they work fine, and they are cheaper too than other diaphgram sets. I must say also Dr. Waynes look good also, I have not used that brand, My problem now with the American Limited kits is trying to put them together, can't see the tiny parts as well, so for me the pleated diaphgrams are easier and look and work great for me.

Robert Sylvester

Newberry and Columbia Line

[doctorwayne]

Mark R.

Sorry Wayne - I must be having a brain cramp .... how does truck mounted couplers vs. body mounted couplers affect how the diaphragms look ?

Given an identical track radius, the angle at which the diaphragms meet will be the same regardless of how the couplers are mounted. The only way to change that would be to alter the king pin location.

Mark. 

Well, if you look at the three photos, all taken on the same curve, the one with truck-mounted couplers has the smallest gap between the diaphragms, and while the one with body-mounted couplers is only slightly wider.  Admittedly, not much difference. 
However, the photos with the body-mount coupled to the truck-mounted one, the gap is noticeably worse.
 
Since I do have a number of cars with both types of coupler mountings, I think that I'd be better off with them all truck mounted, as some particular cars with body-mounted couplers don't work well with other body-mounted ones - not just the appearance of the diaphragms, but also more prone to derailments.
 
The same cars coupled to ones with truck-mounted couplers are fine, and I can live with the gap, but not the derailments. 

I think, too, that the amount which the coupler extends from the end of the car may be a factor.  I currently don't run enough passenger trains to to explore that, but will when the layout is more fully operational.

I suppose that if I moved the layout's timeframe to a more modern one, I could just eliminate passenger service altogether.

Wayne

[robert sylvester]

Dr Wayne:

Your diaphragms look great. Now, besides using the pleated diaphragms though, I have been looking for the soft rubber diaphragms  with the brass striker plate.. For some reason I really like those and there appearance.

 I found a site that was selling the Precision Scale rubber diaphragms with the metal striker plate and I just recieved noticed that they are on the way. I have five beautiful brass passenger coaches and I want to add those diaphragms to each end of the vestibule of each coach. My question to you, when you have a chance, is the question of attachment. Super glue or Walthers Goo. I am concerned that the chemistry of super glue may disfigure the soft rubber edges of the diaphragms. I think the Goo is safe.

Thanks,

Robert Sylvester

Newberry-Columbia Line

South Carolina

[doctorwayne]

Robert, I've never been a fan of Goo, and use super glues mainly for metal-to-plastic joints.

However, the MPH diaphragms which I mentioned in my first post were rubber, with interlocking metal striker plates, and they were attached to the plastic Globe diesels using Pliobond contact cement. 
I prefer gelled contact cement nowadays, but any good contact cement should do the job - make sure to apply it to both mating surfaces and to let it dry the specified amount of time before bringing the two surfaces together.

Wayne