Got a question....Is there such a thing as an official, licensed, bonified, or whatever appraiser of model trains? I appraised HO brass for years, but I have no official license or qualification other than my 50 years of collecting and selling.
As we are approaching older age, our familes will be soon (hopefully not too soon) left with selling our toys. There are of course many ways to sell trains, but to have a basic or rudementary knowledge of values would be most helpful, and certainly worth a professional fee.
As an alternative to an appraisal, I would tell folks to get several bids from sellers and then just interpolate, but of course this was for wholesale pricing. I would then figure for plastic, add 75% for retail value and roughly 50% to a dealers bid to get a fair retail or street value. But I was just shooting from my hip with this.
I'm no longer appraising brass as a question of ethics comes into view, be it that I have no offical license.
Any comments or ideas would be appreciated....thanks
HZ
Well, I only own two brass locos, and they have been kit bashed beyond any real value on the open market........
And historically, the rest of this stuff we play with is only worth 10 or 20 cents on the dollar after we take it out of the box.
Sure, some items can bring reasonable resale prices on Ebay or other sites, but at what labor and fee costs?
I hope my wife just gives it away to anyone who will clean out the basement and then enjoy the stuff......anything they are willing to pay will be a bonus.
Anyone who is going to buy it as a lot needs a big margin to make money - so we are back to 10 cents on the dollar.
Sheldon
A single, official one? Never heard of any and frankly, I don't think this is a perfect science.
Generally speaking, the value of something is based on: 1) the condition of the object; 2) the value of replacing the object new; and 3) how much people are willing to pay for it. Of course, 3 is pretty much the bottom line, and the easy way of getting this is to ask folks that are specialized in the resale of used items. There are 2 or 3 well known ones... Looking at Ebay would be futile in my opinion given how each piece is so unique when they are on the used market. And the range of prices I have seen is astonishing. My rule of thumb for valuing just about anything used is 25% of new price, if in good condition and if sold by an intermediary. Then it goes up to 40% to 50% if I sell it myself. But there are always exceptions. If you can find that buyer that REALLY wants that item, then you can get a better price for it. But that is only found by either luck, or being patient.
As someone else here said, my thoughts, your choices.
Simon
The state of Maryland hasn't figured out how to create a bureaucracy around model railroading appraisals, so there is no license. There is a national organization of appraisers, but their focus is on real estate, maybe businesses, but model trains are way too small a market to expect a routine appraiser to have any specific knowledge.
I've been to several auctions in Towson for various things. They sell a lot of oriental rugs and their "estimates" before sale are 50 to 100% too high. The also auction a certain collectable, that I can't mention here, but is mentioned in the Bill of Rights and they barely have a clue as to what they are selling.
The also auction Lionel trains from time to time, but I don't have a clue there, so I have no idea if their estimates are accurate.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I believe there are actually 2 very legitimate prices that an item may be valued at.
1- Value for insurance in the case of a fire or water or theft. We can always point to the catalog price of when we bought it and use that as the guide. I'm going through this right now after a water leak took out one of my Bachmann On30, DCC 2-4-4-2's. The adjuster had no idea of prices of trains so this verification has proved helpful.
2-The second price is the market or street value of an item. This can be a bit quirky as there are E-Bay prices,train show prices, and estate sales. As others have said it may be as low as 10 to 40% of your original price. The problem with an estate sale is that the survivor knows that the original owner paid, let's say $500 for that brass loco, and it must be worth a whole lot more now, when actually it might be a lot less than the original price.
A few years ago there was a "Brown Book" that listed values of various brass engines. I'll bet that there isn't one price in that book close to any value of items in today's market. So if you want to get some idea of todays values keep checking the various sale venues and get some sort of ballpark price and go from there.
Just my thoughts, others may vary.....
Howard, I am shocked that you asked this question. I would have assumed you were the go-to person for this.
.
When I was in Trainz in Buford, GA last week, they had a copy of your book on the coffee table. It was amazing. I need to get my own copy.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Kevin,
Thanks for the vote of confidence. As mentioned I have done appraisals in HO brass, but I never really felt comfortable doing this as I felt that some kind of professional rating should be required.
Sure there are sources for brass such as the ongoing on-line Brasstrains.com guide. But like me, these folks get thier data from sales experience and watching what item sells for on auction sites and from other dealers. When I did appraisals, I tried to make the path rather than follow what others were claiming. I'd rate model for quality, runability, condition of model and box, rarity, and whether any custom features added or hurt value. Of course I knew original MSRP, number made, and reputations of both importer and builder.
But today, brass is no longer mainstream, and the bulk of what comes on the used market is plastic. I have seen so many times families left with a serious mess of trains and fall victim to offers from dealers.........well let's say not the most honest. On line auctions such as eBay, Stout, Maurer, etc. are somtimes a fair barometer of what model is worth, but not always accurate.
Presently I'm doing what most old dinosaurs like me should be doing.....making a list of everything with suggstions of current wholesale and retail values. This will sure be a help for my wife and kids when I'm gone.
I knew a fellow who had a huge accumuation of brass, but he lied to his wife for years about what he spent.....like $200 for a Tenshodo Big Boy, etc. When he finally passed, she let around 600 locos go for what she thought they were worth. It is too painful for me to put in writing what she was paid for the collection....but the point I feel is well made.
RR_Mel I’m a couple of days away from 81 and I’ve started an Excel spread sheet on my locomotives so that someone can sell them on eBay. The spreadsheets include an eBay listing for each locomotive with pictures. I’m including a good description with both features as well as deficiencies.
That's a great idea Mel. Think of it as a form of estate planning. If your accumulation is large, it would be worth at least a few thousand dollars and worth your time to help who ever deals with it have the option of selling it off if they want. They may have the time to pack it up and ship it. Maybe they won't, and will just sell it bulk or throw it out, but at least you gave them an option.
- Douglas
There won't be an official liscense for train appraisers. The market is too small. Those folks on antiques road show have some sort of credentials backing their estimates of old things and odd collectibles, but I think they just watch the market and tell the seller what the last similar item went for at auction.
Howard could probably do just as good of a job estimating the value of brass trains as anybody else.
But the market matters. There is a difference in finding two buyers who want the itme you're selling it at the time you're selling it, and trying to sell the item when the limited market is silent.
Whichever way you look at the issue, the value of our trains is what people are willing to pay for in the event of a sale. This is in turn depending on the supply/demand situation and not on any "appraised" value.
Supply and demand will most likely diverge quite dramatically within the next few years. As model railroaders are becoming of age, more and more collections will hit the market, while the number of potential buyers is stagnating - at best. However, let´s not get into the "hobby is dying" rut here. The hobby is changing and therefore a shift in attractiveness will take place.
How to support those who have to deal with what we leave behind? I think RRMel has given the best answer. Make a lit of your possessions, including a photo, a description, any modification you´ve made, what you paid for and what your current estimation of a sales price is. You heirs will undoubtedly shake their heads in either disbelief or anger when they find out how much you had spent on your hobby, but they will develop a feeling for the value attached, which will guide their decision. Nothing more, but nothing less.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
If Howard is asking this question, then probably nobody knows the answer.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
What does an "appraisal" mean anyway? Sure it will tell you if you have something of real value or not, but the dollar figure is not worth all that much - unless the appraiser offers to buy the item for that amount.
IMO, if you want an idea of an MR items worth, check out Ebay sales. That will give you real world cash value, and not an overly opptimistic "catalog number".
Remember, MR items are not "one of a kind" like works of art. So the value of the item is similar to what others of its kind have sold for.............
And of course we all know, that any dealer will not give you "market value", for they will resell it and of course must make a profit. So getting 50-60 percent of "market value" from a dealer/reseller is pretty much the norm.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
riogrande5761 If Howard is asking this question, then probably nobody knows the answer.
That sounds reasonable!
Speaking of value - older folks in my country still remember the dire times following WW II, when people traded mink coats, oriental rugs and diamond jewellery for a handful of potatoes.
I recently sold my collection of BB and Roundhouse cars and several unwanted BB and Athearn RTR engines to a train show dealer and got a four digit lot price..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
riogrande5761If Howard is asking this question, then probably nobody knows the answer.
I think this should become a slogan for something. My thoughts exactly.
BRAKIE I recently sold my collection of BB and Roundhouse cars and several unwanted BB and Athearn RTR engines to a train show dealer and got a four digit lot price..
Was that 1000 cars at $1 each? Inquirying minds want to know.
Howard, I don't see any problem if you continue to do appraisals as long as the client is advised up front that you are not licensed, because there is no licensing authority, and you also put it in writing, assuming that you put the appraisal in writing.
I had this very issue come up with my aunt. My uncle had been a model railroader and even though he had basically sold off his collection over the years, she still had some passenger cars that she offered me, gratis. I declined because I don't run passenger trains. Then she asked how she could get an idea about the value of the cars. I told her if she could access a model railroad club in her area, then there would probably be somone(s) who had enough experience to give her an idea of what the cars were worth.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
As with art, I buy trains for their entertainment value, not their monetary value. Because I have left my train collection for my 19 year old cousin (since he is a Lionel guy) I can't be bothered with what he will do with the HO part of my collection once I go.
Joe Staten Island West
Howard Zane ...our familes will be soon (hopefully not too soon) left with selling our toys...
...our familes will be soon (hopefully not too soon) left with selling our toys...
Our families will soon be parting out our stuff!?!?!?! How can they do this to me? What backstabbers, parting off my railroad stuff soon before I have even finished school! I have put good money into that! Why so soon? This is awful! I can't believe that as I approach 25 they would dare to begin parting off my stuff! SOON to! Those jerks!!!
Oh wait... I think I'll be showing myself to the door now before my bad attempt at humor backfires...
maxman BRAKIE I recently sold my collection of BB and Roundhouse cars and several unwanted BB and Athearn RTR engines to a train show dealer and got a four digit lot price.. Was that 1000 cars at $1 each? Inquirying minds want to know.
No.Cars with KD and metal wheels and the number was 300. I also dumped some unwanted Athearn BB and Athearn RTR engines.
I 'm happy with the prices for the locomotives and cars..
I'm also sure he made money on the deal.
Pretty hard to appraise something for which there is no established market.
Lionel trains have price guides and grading standards. There is a big collectors market.
Scale model trains have none of this. You sell on eBay or at train shows and prices are all over the place. I have seen Athearn Bluebox NIB kits going for $5 and $15 from different vendors at the same train show. I have seen estate sales at some train shows, again prices vary.
I agree with others above that for your estate you need to leave a list with suggested selling prices. Also suggested places to sell. eBay is one, but big train shows can be good also and there are online sites. If you have specialty stuff like O scale, S scale, narrow gauge, Toy trains there are train shows for those that likely will do better than a general show. Of course there's also the factor of time and hassle to sell off a collection for maximum value.
Since my wife won't need any money from the trains and one son and my grandson are into trains, they get first pick. The rest can be sold/given away as they desire and want to fool with. But I do plan to leave a list at least for the more valuable items.
Paul
What I had in mind about professional model railroad appraising and due to aging population into trains, a possible very good idea...was for an organization like NMRA, TCA, and TTOS offer an appriasing certificate predicated on applicants qualifications. Along with this certificate would be a code of ethics and fair service charge guide. Ethics? you bet!
If hired to appraise, appraiser must recuse himself from submitting a bid to purchase. I did this for years.....offer client a choice: hire me to appraise or ask me to submit a bid on purchase...but never both.
The arguement about just enjoying the trains while alive and not caring about future of where your hard earned purchases and creations my wind up may work for some, but not for me and for many folks I know in the hobby. I worked quite hard for my purchases over the years and my family put up with my many forays into the basement instead of spending more quality time with them. They will have earned a fair reimbursement.
end of sermon........
LION has ten 6-car subway trains, all with drawbars and inter-wired, so they are six car sets and would have to be mailed in 4' long shipping tubes.
They are heavily used, abused and altered, none have original mother boards, most have lame-made interior lighting that does not work like I would like.
That is 60 subway cars. Just put them on e-bay and see what happens.
I also have about 50 Tortiose switch machines. Also well used and well abused. $10. each would be nice.
I have hundreds of relays. More than our maint dept could use, 2-3$ea is about the most that could be expected, IF and only if someone has the patience to salvage themn all.
I will make a list of the equipment, others will have to move it.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
What does Lion's post have to do with this subject, and what about using this chat room to sell personal items?
Howard Zaneand what about using this chat room to sell personal items?
Nope. Selling on this forum is strictly prohibited, as per this excerpt from the MR Forum Policy:
No selling or advertising. That means no links or references of any kind to items or services for sale or auction.
There are other appropriate venues for that.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
The Lion aka Br. Elias sometimes speaks in rather abbreviated terms. If I understand his roar correctly, all he is saying that those he will one day leave behind should put his train stuff on ebay and see what will happen. He is, however preparing a list of his "worldly " possessions.
He is not at all advertising anything here.
tstage Howard Zane and what about using this chat room to sell personal items? Nope. Selling on this forum is strictly prohibited, as per this excerpt from the MR Forum Policy: No selling or advertising. That means no links or references of any kind to items or services for sale or auction. There are other appropriate venues for that. Tom
Howard Zane
and what about using this chat room to sell personal items?
SeeYou190 Howard, I am shocked that you asked this question. I would have assumed you were the go-to person for this. -Kevin
Yep! Hey...I'm just happy that Howard has a car that I built! lol
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
Model trains are unlike a lot of items in that the price of an item can change from week to week even. I have seen a rare item go for x year after year and all of a sudden someone has a bunch of them to sell and the market changes, sometimes for good and it can be in either direction. I spent years getting Kadee logging cabooses, I had a lot of them and got them all at a great price because they were going for about double what I paid. Sold most of them on e-bay through a freind and did a little better than break even on them and he sold them over a long period of time. Now I check prices and they are slightly over what I used to haggle for, don't know if my collection did anything but things have changed (good thing I got a bit more for these as I lost money on some brass).