I can certainly appreciate the fine detail and quaility of the looks of brass, but some of the plastic models today seem to be about just as good, or at least very close to brass at one-tenth the price or less, and with more features. And from what I have read here, many brass locos need work to make them good runners.
I can see there was a time that plastic manufacturing was not capable of what it is today, but that was a long time ago. Other than bragging rights, tell me what I am missing out on?
A few thoughts I can offer:
-There is brass and plastic, but there are also metal and composite locos. The latter have a lot of appeal.
-The story will be different between steam and diesel. Brass steam still has a lot of advantages, especially in terms of weight. I would argue that brass is still the best for most logging and mining locos in terms of operations.
- Prototypical accuracy is sometimes only available in brass because of the brass industry's capacity to produce in smaller runs.
Finally, and this is totally subjective, I simply like the feeling and look of metal (brass or other). Brass and metal steam locos just feel and look a little bit closer to the real thing when the boilers and pipes are made of real hard stuff....
Simon
A lot of the attraction to brass- especially steam, is that it represents specific prototypes. Steam locomotives were very custom creations and each railroad generally had their own designs (many times they even varied among the same class.) Brass was done in short runs of specific prototypes. Plastic because of the tooling requires larger runs so they tend to be larger more popular roads or things like USRA locos which were made for several railroads. For diesels there is little advantage to brass (except if it was a rare one-off model) as most locos have been run in plastic. At one point this wasn't the case (80's) and a brass diesel was often brought out long before plastic. Jim
restorator Other than bragging rights, tell me what I am missing out on?
.
You are not missing out on anything, and there are no bragging rights.
I own quite a bit of brass, but only because I like steam and I run DC.
I am able to buy excellent running and nice looking brass USRA steam locomotives for a good price. I have only paid about $200.00 each for my brass steamers. Most are Samhongsa imported by Key or Sunset in to 1990s. The detail on them does not stand up to todays plastic, but they are easy to keep running and repair. They are also more durable to being handled.
I thank the unknown collectors that bought and stored these for me in mint condition until I could afford them.
The STRATTON & GILLETTE does not pay a premium for road specific details in brass or plastic.
I only own a couple brass diesels, older models, and they are awful. Plastic has won the diesel battle completely.
All of my cabooses are brass, and a lot of my rolling stock is brass as well, but that is a different story.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I agree that plastic has come along way in the past three or so decades in regards to reaching the detail of "some" brass offerings. But that's also contingent on the brass manufacturer, as some older brass has better or worse detailing than others.
Most new and some older brass locomotives run quite well without the need for any tinkering at all - other than running them around the loop or putting them up on roller bearings to break them in properly. I have three brass locomotives from the late 70s/early 80s - one diesel and two steamers - and all three came with can motors. Two run quite well and the third is not too far behind. I think all it needs is a little more break-in time.
Yes, some older brass does require some effort to get them to run properly. And there are some older brass offerings that - no matter how much you lube and adjust and tweak them - they will NEVER be good runners because the mechanisms are so poor.
One of the major pluses that brass has over plastic is the provision of unique, prototype-specific locomotives, rolling stocking, or structures that would draw only a small interest from prototype modelers vs. the public-at-large. Brass is genrally made in smaller quantities (e.g. 50, 100, 200, etc) vs 1000-2000 in plastic. Plastic manufactures are concerned with turning a profit (albeit small) so they primarily market only those models that they determine the buying public is interested in buying and/or adding to their collection. That means that my NYC B-11L 0-6-0, NYC M-1 0-10-0, and NYC H20-44 switchers are very unlikely to be manufactured in plastic - if ever.
The prices for modern plastic offerings are probably closer to 20-25% of the equivalent offering in brass - minus discounts. Course, that depends on the locomotive. Steam models are generally more expensive to produce than diesel because of the increase in the amount of moving parts and details. And some of those parts have to work well together for the locomotive to work properly.
Lastly, brass is generally more sturdy than plastic - especially with fine details on scales HO and smaller. It's a comforting feeling knowing that you can store your model either upright or on its side without worrying if the handrails are going to either break or be permanently warped after long periods of inactivity.
Just my immediate thoughts on the topic...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
restorator,I am a brass owner and operator. The major benefit for me in buying brass over plastic is that many of the things I want are only in brass. For example, I'm a NH fan who likes steam but only two NH steam engines have been made in plastic. These limited choices make it rather difficult to model NH in the steam era.
Meanwhile, in brass almost the entire NH steam roster of 20th Century-built locos have been produced. I can model most any NH train or terminal in the 1900's with that kind of roster.
With diesels, that's when plastic really shines for the NH. Almost the entire NH diesel roster has been done in plastic, some of it very high end. Some are even better than brass for accuracy (see: Rapido FL9). Still, if you want accurate NH diesel models for certain prototypes, brass is the only option.
For some folks, modeling a specific railroad as realistically as possible is more important to them. I am one of those people.
Meanwhile, I barely care about freight cars. Most of my car roster are Athearn BB's I bought on the cheap. For me, the locos set the scene. They are the lead actors on the stage play I'm producing, and are worth spending my attention (and money) on. The spotlight is on them. My freight cars are the extras in the background; required to be seen, but it really doesn't matter much who they are as long as they are dressed in period-correct costumes.
Another benefit of brass is that they can out-perform plastic in certain situations. Being metal, they are more robust. I've never seen a broken off a lift ring on the roof of a brass diesel, but I've seen some BLI E-units at my club that look like someone shaved the roof clean due to ham-fisted owners. Same goes for handrails, grabs, and other detail parts. Brass isn't immune from damage, but it is more resistant.
Paint quality can be superior on brass. Not always, of course, but some brass models have a great paint job on them that plastic still can't beat. We're modeling metal objects, so it looks more realistic to use metal. Sort of like why a wood model of a wood prototype will generally look better than a plastic model of the same thing.
Paul3I barely care about freight cars. Most of my car roster are Athearn BB's I bought on the cheap. For me, the locos set the scene. They are the lead actors on the stage play I'm producing, and are worth spending my attention (and money) on. The spotlight is on them. My freight cars are the extras in the background; required to be seen, but it really doesn't matter much who they are as long as they are dressed in period-correct costumes.
It is amazing how two experienced modelers can have oppinions completely 180 degrees opposite from one another.
All my freight cars are high quality with seperate ladders, grabs, brake rigging, etc. About 20% of them are brass, with the remainder being split between resin kits and high detail plastic (Intermountian, Red Caboose, Proto 2000). All cabooses are brass.
For me the freight cars are the stars. The layout is all about moving these little gems from point to point. I love all my freight cars.
The locomotives are just there to move the freight cars around. Generic USRA designs, F units, and Geeps are good enough. Running quality is all that counts. Athearn BB mechanisms are fine. Detail does not matter as much as it does on frieght cars.
I am not saying I am right or anyone else is worng, just different objectives and priorities.
And plastic models today are very nice but can be very fragile. Leave them on the layout and try not to transport. I have some BLI diesels with fragile steps that can break off easily. Try to repair those. Brass, it can be done.
Others have mentioned fragile parts on plastic quality models.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
I suppose it all depends on what locos from what manufacturer and what era. Some brass still goes for crazy prices, especially given that there are far better detailed and running plastic/metal version sof the same loco. My prime example is from my prototype. There have now been at least 3 runs of the Reading T1 from BLI (PCM for the first one, but same company). Each is, in direct visual comparion (my ex father in law had one) far superior in detail to the late 70's/early 80's NJCB/Daiyung brass version, but the prices I see people selling the brass ones for on ebay are near insane. Now, the 90's Overland version - that is superior in detail to the BLI models. Painted, the price they go for though...
Now I see there is PLENTY of brass steam available on eBay for $200 or less, however none of it is EVER for roads I need or want. It seems a lot of Eastern road brass is just so much more limited in availability. I may just have to give RDG Casey's method a try and turn one of the P2K 2-8-8-2's into an N1 if I ever want to have one of those, the brass ones are just too rich for my blood.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Paul3 The major benefit for me in buying brass over plastic is that many of the things I want are only in brass.
The major benefit for me in buying brass over plastic is that many of the things I want are only in brass.
SeeYou190 It is amazing how two experienced modelers can have oppinions completely 180 degrees opposite from one another. l my freight cars are high quality with seperate ladders, grabs, brake rigging, etc. About 20% of them are brass, with the remainder being split between resin kits and high detail plastic (Intermountian, Red Caboose, Proto 2000). All cabooses are brass. For me the freight cars are the stars. The layout is all about moving these little gems from point to point. I love all my freight cars.. The locomotives are just there to move the freight cars around. Generic USRA designs, F units, and Geeps are good enough. Running quality is all that counts. Athearn BB mechanisms are fine. Detail does not matter as much as it does on frieght cars. -Kevin
l my freight cars are high quality with seperate ladders, grabs, brake rigging, etc. About 20% of them are brass, with the remainder being split between resin kits and high detail plastic (Intermountian, Red Caboose, Proto 2000). All cabooses are brass.
For me the freight cars are the stars. The layout is all about moving these little gems from point to point. I love all my freight cars..
Kevin, how about both of you can be right in my eyes. I understand Pauls comments about buying brass over plastic because some things are only available in brass.
I can't afford as much brass as either of you, well, I could, but I might not stay married. Since I can't afford much, what I do have is simply to obtain rolling stock not availalbe in plastic. My only brass are two passenger cars (Pullman Standard combines) that ran on the Rio Grande Zephyr, and 6 brass Rio Grande cabooses, because there are no correct plastic Rio Grande caboose as of the present.
That said, I love freight cars and have been spending the extra money to get accurate, detailed cars from Moloco, Exactrail, Tangent, Wheels of Time, Genesis and Intermountain, and Atlas.
Of course eveyone has to decide what they like, but if you can afford brass and it's the only way to get correct rolling stock, and your goal is to closely copy a RR, you get what you can.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Kevin,That difference of ours is due to our individual focus in this hobby. You're modeling a home road, so locomotive accuracy isn't important to you because you're not modeling a prototype railroad. I am modeling a specific railroad, and therefore locomotive accuracy is very important to me because without accurate NH locos I don't feel I'm reproducing the NH (which is what I want to do most of all).
On your railroad, moving the freight becomes the way you connect with your vision of what your railroad should be. Therefore they become your focus and are worth the time/expense to you.
On mine, freight cars still are required to move about, but they're just wheeled vehicles for my NH locos to move. As long as they fit my era and scheme (and aren't Bachmann/Life-Like/Tyco trainset cars...I mean I have some standards), I really don't care what they are because the cars are immaterial to my goal of modeling the NH.
Let me put it this way: if I take a freight car and put it in a generic layout scene, no one can tell what I'm modeling. It could be just about anywhere on any railroad line. If I put a NH GP9 in the same layout scene, suddenly I'm modeling the New Haven in MA, CT, RI or NY. And that's why I spend my money on locos.Not to say I don't want accurate freight cars, I just don't care if they aren't. I have a number of Kadee, IM and other high end freight cars, but they can't be more than 20% of my roster.
Fortunately, our hobby of ours is big enough for all of us.
...So, in view of the foregoing, I go on the auction site looking for a decent deal on a brass 44 tonner. If it runs badly, (brass diesel has it's reputation) I can put a spectrum drive in it. I have seen some decent big brass steamers go for a couple hundred dollars. What might a relatively simple 44 tonner, maybe in need of some t-l-c go for? I'm looking for the extra weight it offers, mainly.
The only one I found, painted, was in need of at least cosmetic t-l-c, how it may run wasn't mentioned in the vague description. $486 buy it now, including shipping.
Some guys think brass is gold.
Southgate,
There is a W&R GE 44-ton diesels listed on a reputable brass website for <$300. While the paint job isn't the greatest, the description states that "it runs well" and running noise is a "3" (i.e. 3 out of 10; 10 being the noisiest).
On eBay you can find good and bads deals on brass - just like you can in plastic. Know what something is worth and determine if that is something you can afford and live with. So far I've only purchased brass with undecorated shells. Not surprising the painted shells generally garner the higher prices.
Reputable brass websites can be worth looking at for particular and/or prototype locomotives. And some - like the one above - will offer more detail descriptions and photos (warts and all) than sellers on eBay.
Southgate...I'm looking for the extra weight it offers, mainly....
I doubt that a brass loco as small as a 44 tonner will offer much more in the way of weight over a plastic one. Some strategically-placed sheet lead shoiuld get the Bachmann loco to a similar, if not better, weight than the stock brass one.
Wayne
restorator I can certainly appreciate the fine detail and quaility of the looks of brass, but some of the plastic models today seem to be about just as good, or at least very close to brass at one-tenth the price or less, and with more features. And from what I have read here, many brass locos need work to make them good runners.
Yes, all true. From what I gather, it's mostly the older brass engines than may need work to run well, some old ones run very well, others not.
Nothing. By your comment above, it seems like your just taking pot shots at brass owners with the "bragging rights" comment, which is silly and unconstructive. It's not as "petty" as all that.
The brass that I have, and alluded to earlier, is because I could not find the correct passenger cars or cabooses I needed in plastic - pure and simple. I really want to be able to run trains that look like the trains the Rio Grande ran back in the late 70's and early 80's.
Oh, and there is also a notion that people buy brass as an investment, at least in the olden days. Some has appreciate in value but it can just as easily go the opposite direction. At one time I had a set of brass California Zephyr passenger cars which cost me around $180 each. Later-on, Broadway Limited offered nice plastic CZ cars and I think I got may be half that back when I sold the brass CZ cars. With more and more nice accurate models coming out in plastic every year, that probably will happen to some other brass models.
All the above being said, there are some other positives about brass; if John Mock is here, he could talk about his reasons.
riogrande5761Oh, and there is also a notion that people buy brass as an investment, at least in the olden days. Some has appreciate in value but it can just as easily go the opposite direction.
In the old days brass was for model railroaders. The Japanese needed some time until they understood that their models were really run in the USA. That started improvement of running qualities.
Since a number of years brass dealers try to sell brass models as investment. There are only few that gained worth above its inflation adjusted purchasing price. If you consider to invest in brass you should do it with surplus money only.
When selling, dealers will give about 50% of market value. At auctions one pays fees. That can reduce the gains.
As soon as similar plastic models are released the worth of brass starts to drop. Diesel locomotive are another example.
Once you needed brass for modern railroading. Currently brass importers are backward-looking again.Regards, Volker
While more and more brass releases are being delivered with sound & DCC, I think they are still primarily marketed toward the "collector" rather than the model railroader. The runs are usually pretty small and the prices fairly high.
If I purchase a locomotive my intention is to run it on my layout. I'm not one who enjoys having it sit in a box in a closet somewhere for the occasion peek-a-boo session; nor look at it as some sort of investment. Nope, mine have to earn their keep.
doctorwayne Southgate ...I'm looking for the extra weight it offers, mainly.... I doubt that a brass loco as small as a 44 tonner will offer much more in the way of weight over a plastic one. Some strategically-placed sheet lead shoiuld get the Bachmann loco to a similar, if not better, weight than the stock brass one. Wayne
Southgate ...I'm looking for the extra weight it offers, mainly....
I agree, Wayne. Adding lead sheet was and is plan A. The rather unlikely deal on a brass shell would have been plan B. I'll get some weight in them little critters. Dan
Maybe people wouldn't have negative impressions of brass owners if every single discussion of brass on this Forum didn't degenerate into a contest to see who can claim to have been insulted by the other side first.
This thread has been cleaned up. The fact that I didn't delete the entire thread shows that it is possible to discuss the brass vs. plastic topic civilly. Now do so, or else.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
I own only one brass engine - a Westside Model Co. HOn3 D&RGW T-12 4-6-0 I bought back in 1975. It is by far no match for the recent Blackstone creations - in terms of detail and running characteristics, but it has a feel of ruggedness, durability and heft to it, that only brass engines or die-cast engines have.
Would I pay a stiff premium for this feel? Most likely not!
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
I have two tower 55 locomotives that are half brass the way the drives look are rugged and run ok.
Russell
Every subject has extreme examples....brass models are no different. When I was an active brass seller (1987-2005... still am, but much smaller), I never told a customer to buy a brass model as it is a good investment....only purchase because you like the model and want to own a work of art (I'll go to my grave still claiming that brass models are a form of fine art).
I promised an extreme example and there are many.....In 1963 as a very low paid junior officer in the army, I found myself in the brass department of Hi-Way Hobby House in Paramus, NJ. Unfortunately I had my wife with me (or fortunate). In a case was a beautiful PFM/Nakayama KCS 2-10-4 that told me to take her home. The tag was $163.95 and labled 1 of 13. I had been into brass for about a year and knew something about limited run locos...but I was in the under $50 bracket then. My monthly salary was then around the same, so Missy, my wife talked me out of it. Fast foward to march of 1997 or 34 years later. This same loco fetched $28,000 at a Southeby's auction. The buyer after buyer's premium, city and state taxes wrote a check for over $34,000. In 1984 I purchased as many as could find NPP Erie, 4-6-2's, 2-8-2's, 4-6-0's, DL&W 4-6-2's, 2-8-2's, and RDG, 2-8-2's for around $225 each which was then close to MRSP. Today any of these locos will bring over $800 each and often higher. Again this is not the norm, but realizing that many folks do not buy thinking of future resale, then this is not an issue. But it will be some day when family has to sell your trains. I have found over the years that basically brass hold their value way better than counterparts.
HZ
All my model railroad purchases have been investments - into fun and entertainment. I have never seen them as a capital investment.
There was a time I had to sell my prized possessions to buy food for the family and I was lucky to get 20 cents on the dollar, although some of that stuff was supposed to be limited, highly desirable collector'scollector's items. Rare doesn't automatically mean a high value.
One other factor has to be keyed into the equasion - age. Most of us are in their 60s and 70s and it will be a matter of only a few years, before our collections hit the market, where they are most likely meet less interest than in our prime days. It doesn´t take a crystal ball to predict what that means for the value of what our heirs will sell.
In some cases brass was pretty much the only game in town unless you were willing and able to do a big kitbashing or scratchbuilding project. Even now there's still stuff such as some steel mill equipment or rare and obscure cars and engines owned by maybe one or two railroads at most that will likely never see the light of day as a plastic model. That is unless a company like Walthers, Athearn, Atlas, etc. is willing to either A. Settle for not selling too many (they won't be) or B. offer them in fantasy schemes for railroads that never actually owned them or promotional schemes for companies like back in the Tyco days.
Personally I don't own any brass locos or cars and most likely never will due to not having the money for them but I can appreciate the detail and craftsmanship they offer.
I view brass like any other model railroad purchase. For what I want to do, is the brass a better option than something else that costs less? Or given the many things I want to do in the hobby, is this where I want to spend a big chunk of what money I have available? Most of the time the answers are no, which is why I only own 2 brass pieces. For me, this is no different than any of the other many tradeoffs we all make in this hobby.
It's a hobby and if the brass is what makes it fun for you, then go for it. Otherwise do what's more fun for you.
Paul
Steven Otte This thread has been cleaned up. The fact that I didn't delete the entire thread shows that it is possible to discuss the brass vs. plastic topic civilly. Now do so, or else.
I have only five brass locomotives and only three of them are in-service on the layout. My first, a B&M B-15 Mogul, cost under $100.00, and didn't run well at all. I re-motored it, and modified it slightly for my free-lance road...
...and later re-geared it and modified it more severely...
A great-running locomotive and a surprisingly good puller for its size, I doubt it's even worth its original cost, but for the enjoyment it's given me...priceless.
This one I got for free, from a friend who felt that it didn't pull well enough...
I changed out the original air pump for a cross compound type, put neodium magnets in the open frame motor, added as much weight as would fit, then renumbered it for a loco which had worked in my hometown, and gave it a new paint job.Another great runner and capable of handling 20 cars (of varying rolling qualities) on level track. I offered it back to my friend, but in the interim he had acquired two United 0-8-0s (which I had upgraded in a similar manner to the 0-6-0), so the loco stayed here. Again, well worth the work that I put into both it and the two 0-8-0s. What's it worth? I don't really care, and when I'm gone, I doubt that it will matter to those selling it, either.This one is one of my favourite CNR prototypes....
...and I acquired at a reasonable price because it didn't have its original box. I modified it slightly to match a photo of the real 1383 (the extended coal bunker is the biggest visual change), then gave it a new paint job.
I recently required another identical 4-6-0, this time from an estate sale. The original owner had modified the coal bunker in a different, although still prototypical, manner, but since I have a particular locomotive in mind, not only is the coal bunker incorrect, the original tender is so different from the one I want to represent, that I will use only the model's original tender chassis - the rest will be scratchbuilt. I'll save the tender body in the box, in case the next owner prefers it to what I'll be building, but the locomotive also needs some work to match the appearance of the prototype I have in mind, so the old tender body may prove redundant (if I do a decent job of the conversion work).
The fifth loco, also from the same estate sale, was a gift from another friend, for whom I've done a lot of work over the years. He has the same locomotive, but it had some serious issues with zincpest in the driver centres, and was not a great runner. We decided to rebuild the loco, and I installed a new NWSL motor and gearbox, new drivers from Greenway, and gave the old girl a new paint job...
For my version, I had a particular prototype in mind, so, working from photos, I redetailed the locomotive to match, refining the piping and other details, and replacing the under-cab air reservoirs. I had always thought the latter to be undersize on the stock models (I had offered to make the same change during the rebuild of my friend's loco, but he had declined). The new air tanks are lead-filled brass tubing. I also cast a new boiler weight and, to maintain the loco's balance point, new weights for the cab interior. The loco, as shown below, weighs in at 11.25oz. A new can motor gives it great low speed performance...
For this one, the model's tender body is not useable as-is, and it will be easier to scratchbuild a new one than try to alter the original. Again, I'll save the original for the next owner.
The prototype which I have in mind for my CNR Mogul can be seen in the photo below. It's a mural on a building's wall, based on a photo taken nearby, when the wheels of the tender of Mogul in question picked the points on a turnout, with the result shown...
Another photo of the incident, also taken from a nearby rooftop, shows a similar scene, but amongst the crowd, is, I think, my mother, holding my younger brother, and me standing, viewing the wreck. I hope to make my Mogul into the rebuilt version of the one lying in the street. I can't possibly place a monetary value on that.As for my plastic locomotives, they're equally valuable/valueless for the work they do on my layout and for the enjoyment they give me.
Wayne... I know this is an old thread, but I was looking for this mogul of yours, and this is the thread I found...
I saved this picture in my "Ideas" folder a couple of years ago as inspiration.
I just bought a suitable 2-6-0 base model to use for this project. Hopefully I can get to work on it within the 2020s!
tstage If I purchase a locomotive my intention is to run it on my layout. I'm not one who enjoys having it sit in a box in a closet somewhere for the occasion peek-a-boo session; nor look at it as some sort of investment. Nope, mine have to earn their keep.
Alton Junction
richhotrain tstage If I purchase a locomotive my intention is to run it on my layout. I'm not one who enjoys having it sit in a box in a closet somewhere for the occasion peek-a-boo session; nor look at it as some sort of investment. Nope, mine have to earn their keep. Same here. Putting those models in glass display cases doesn't do it for me. Rich
Same here. Putting those models in glass display cases doesn't do it for me.
I can relate fully to this. I have one brass steam locomotive, an Oriental Limited Pennsylvania M1b (not M1a as the box says) with a list of things I want to do to it. Namely, get it equipped with DCC, sound, LED lighting, and maybe extra weight, though it's quite heavy as is, paint, weather, and see it pulling long freight trains. I will in time as I acquire the parts it needs. I didn't buy it for a display case or to never leave its box. I also care not about future resale value, there are far better things to invest money in, and I feel that just buying models to keep them in pristine shape is not much fun, at least for me. Buying models, fixing them up as we want them to be, and seeing said models make a living on our model railroads has it's own sense of satisfaction and joy.
I'm also in agreement with others who've stated that the look and feel of brass is it's own joy over buying plastic models. I love today's plastic models, I have many that are excellent miniatures of the real thing, especially after a bit of work adding details and weathering, but with brass models, especially steam engines, there is more of a heft and feel akin to the real thing I think that plastic just will not replicate. I get that some of that sense from my diecast BLI PRR steamers too, but not the way I do brass, and certainly not from plastic. However, I don't look down on plastic models, I just do not have the same sense of enjoyment from them.
Alvie