My wish is to have more staging area but it will not happen in my current situation. In reality, I have too much stuff on my layout. I love long trains but finding a place to park them became my headache. To help, I wound up adding a lot more track. That helped but now my layout has more track that I would prefer. As a result, this situation has dictated my operating style.
I always have a continuous loop that I can run a long train on. It operates primarily in the background while I am busy running a local that shuttles cars to/from a yard and customers. So far I am not using any card list, JMRI or any other structured process to move cars. I do plan to integrate something structured into my operations as soon as I figure out what works best for me.
In the meantime, the long train operates on the mainline loop but is forced to stop as needed to accomodate the work by the local.
Paul D
N scale Washita and Santa Fe RailroadSouthern Oklahoma circa late 70's
My lone wolf runnings on my old layout consisted of having a mainline train run around and around, while I focused on switching cars. The most fun comes when you try to figure out how to get the mainline train and the switcher to not collide or hog the right of way. Totally unrealistic, but...
I'm beginning to realize that Windows 10 and sound decoders have a lot in common. There are so many things you have to change in order to get them to work the way you want.
You are right about staging Kevin, and I was right about having too many cars on the layout. I ran the schedule I had planned. It worked very well except for the switching cars part, where i realised that all my switching tracks were a bit too full. So in addition to removing one whole train I also removed 2 tank cars, 3 box cars, two flat cars. a gondola and a caboose. I kept my special passenger train (Oscar and Piker) for the bigwigs to used for adhoc inspections, and I need to add a spur in the loco depot to store them.
Once again thanks to restorator for starting this thread.
Alan Jones in Sunny Queensland (Oz)
Alantrainsyou can never have too much staging even on a small layout.
.
I have learned that lesson, you are correct.
Over 1/3 of the space on my next layout will be dedicated for staging.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
This is a great thread and I have read most of your very interesting replies.
Thanks to restorator for starting it.
I am a solo operator and this thread encouraged me to document an operating schedule for my small layout (11' X 6').
I don't use waybills or car cards (yet).
As I tried to get a working schedule, I realised that I have too many trains on my layout. By reducing the numer of trains I can now have an interesting schedule that is flexible enough that it doesn't matter if I don't complete a full session at one time. I can pick up where I left off or just run a train around to show visitors without messing up the schedule.
Now to try it out! I suspect I may have to reduce the amount of rollingstock (Cars) on the layout too.
Oh one piece of advice, you can never have too much staging even on a small layout.
I think it might help if you ask yourself what you really want out of your layout. Do you want to simulate the experience of running a real railroad, being a real train crew member? Or do you want to simulate the experience of watching trains in another place and time? For my home layout, which I operate alone, I have decidedly come down on the side of being the watcher, and in fact the layout was designed to support this.
Essentially, it's a short section of a busy single track mainline, with a couple of passing sidings for meets and one depot where the surviving passenger trains still stop. And to change it up a bit, I've got bits of two branch lines and several local industries. So there's some slow-paced operations to balance out the mainline action. I've never used car cards or waybills. I have a bunch of trains made up and parked in staging, and I operate them according to a schedule that represents a day in the life of the railroad. The passenger trains are usually pretty predictable, arriving at least close to schedule, but the freights are more randomly variable, sometimes so much that the order is changed slightly. That way I don't get exactly the same meets every day. When I'm lazy, things get spread out, and meets are few. If I'm feeling ambitious, maybe I'll decide it's been a bad dispatching day, and plug both sidings and then send two more trains out to work their way through. The ideas suggested above for gaming this aspect of the operation are pretty cool.
The local turns working the branchlines and industries are pretty repetitive, as described by other posters, but never identical. Daily, high-volume customers provide a baseload of work, (hoppers for the gravel quarry, boxcars for the grain elevators) but other customers are more sporadic and may only need to be worked once every few days. I only switch up and rebuild the through freight trains every month or two, once I've begun to memorize their consists (my fleet is somewhere between 150-200 cars). I rework the locals between every session so they're a little bit different every day. So, I do sort of have to decide how many empties I'm going to drop at each elevator today, but I do that on the fly, not with cards or a program.
I have a DCC system, and have used its memory capabilities to create pre-programmed turnout routes through the staging yard. I've also used switched infrared detectors to automatically "park" inbound trains in their staging tracks. This makes it fairly easy to control up to 3 moving trains at once, at least on days when I'm observing Rule G and feeling relatively sharp. One of the coolest effects is being able to just watch freights roll by on the mainline while simultaneously working one of the local switching jobs.
It takes about 3-4 hours to work through an entire 24-hour schedule, but I rarely do this all in one sitting. Instead, I work my way through it in order at whatever pace I feel like. Some days I just go down and spend 10-15 minutes running one train, and that's enough.
Now, having said all that, if you want a more realistic operating experience, as opposed to just being a trackside watcher, I'd suggest a very different approach.
My road is a regional quasi-governmental that hosts: - a for-profiit freight shortline, which connects on the east to a fictional fourth Conrail shared-use area, and to the east with NS- regional commuter rail- run-through Amtrak (Empire Service)- Intermodal freights that exchange with my terminal and run through to the other side.- We have just implemented transloading, intially of boxcars but later to have bulk, liquids and large loads.
So we have lots of varied operation.
The overal timing has scheduled regional commuter, Amtrak and intermodal trains. They're scattered around the day so that they don't confict. The local freight runs after the morning commute, then takes a siding at mid-day for a meet with one of the Amtrak trains.
Of these trains, only the local freight and its interchange roads use a car card (envelope, actually) and waybill. Waybills have 2 or more sides and you just advance to the next side on arrival. One of the sides may indicate layover. At the end, you start over at the first side. These are designed to have an ansynchronous pattern, that is, you should see different cars together on freight runs. The intermodal terminal has a deck of cards saying how many containers or trailers shall be removed or added for each run.
Genesee Terminal, freelanced HO in Upstate NY ...hosting Loon Bay Transit Authority and CSX Intermodal. Interchange with CSX (CR)(NYC).
CP/D&H, N scale, somewhere on the Canadian Shield
mbinsewi On my "lone wolf", one man small layout, I might just run and watch a train, or I might run a "local", and do road switching on the industries I have, or I might just do switching and set-out, for the local, or the main line train. Mike.
On my "lone wolf", one man small layout, I might just run and watch a train, or I might run a "local", and do road switching on the industries I have, or I might just do switching and set-out, for the local, or the main line train.
Mike.
I do basically the same on my 4 x 6 1/2 layout. It's a short line or branch Line. Capacity is about a dozen cars maximum. After I get tired of seeing the same cars roam the layout, I swap 'em out with a new set. Every so often I swap motive power. It's nothing elaborate but I have a blast.
I only spend an average of an hour or two each week working on or playing with my trains. Some weeks I won't even step into my train room.
In the past, on previous layouts, I have used Excel to generate a random switch list or freight train consist.
I'm perfectly happy being a "lone wolf" model railroader.
Alan
Bubbytrains
I am developing a sort of deck based card system for the small town switching layout I'm building, to make it more of a game. Rather than separate car cards and waybills, I'm making cards for every car/industry/cargo combination I care to model, for two decks--west bound and east bound. A given card indicates a car, its lading, origin, and destination. Like your typical model railroad waybill it can rotate to its empty state (or from empty to loaded, as the case may be for the industry). Some cars may need to be spotted; others may be through cars meant for the next town.
To start a round, I'll draw five cards from one deck to make up a train, and run it, dealing with cars already spotted as needed, and doing pickups for cars going that direction (spotted on the last round). Then I run one from the other direction deck, and so on as time and interest allows.
I also plan to include "event" cards in the decks, similar to those in Paul's table, or for the possibility of other traffic, derailments or obstructions, extra through cars, or what have you.
To begin with I'll be printing them out myself on adhesive stock and sticking them to playing cards. In the long run, when my layout and rolling stock is well established, I may have them professionally printed; there are a few options for getting custom card decks printed.
restorator,If operational realism is important to you, then unpredictibility in loads or cars is just not that realisitc. Operational patterns change in glacier-like ways; months (or years) of no change, then wham!, something happens all at once when the factory closes (or opens), the crop is in (or out), or a bridge burns down somewhere. Surprise isn't that regular.
That being said, there are still many things that one can do to surprise yourself on a model railroad. As an old school BattleTech player myself, I would make a 2d6 table for a pair of dice like this:2 (3%) - "Snake eyes"; management is watching so work to rule.3 (6%) - A car is Bad Ordered; set out on nearest R.I.P. track.4 (8%) - Skill upgrade; flying switches and poling allowed.5 (11%) - Handbrake doesn't work; must chock wheels.6 (14%) - Flat switching allowed; can "kick" cars using 0-5-0.7 (17%) - Consignee requests a car move to another spot.8 (14%) - Consignee not releasing X cars today (roll 1d6 for X).9 (11%) - Cars have no air; wait 1 min/car when coupling to pump up.10 (8%) - Old Brakeman; must stop each time to let him on/off train.11 (6%) - Turnout is broken; no service to consignee today.12 (3%) - "Boxcars"; Derailment of X cars (roll 1d6 for X).So you roll a pair of 6-sided dice and apply the results in whatever way works for you. I literally just made up that table (the odds are the pecentages listed), so feel free to add your own. Heck, I'm sure Brakie here could come up with even more examples of stuff like this to make it interesting. Just remember that "7" is the most common number, and "2" and "12" are the most rare.
There's a fine line between fun and work in our hobby; I try to keep it on the fun side, but the work side can appear all too easily.
Brakie,Absolutely. I love having the club local switchers do an "in plant" move (or whatever you call it). We call 'em "zingers" where a car is simple re-spotted and not picked up and taken back to the yard. However, many times the operator will simply see it as a pick up and take it away. When he gets back to the yard with the extra car...he gets zinged.
restorator,Yes, every car that's being used during an operation session is registered but I only have to do that once. If I keep a JMRI program set up and going, I have to regularly keep track of what's on the layout. With our car card system, the owner does that by keeping the card with the car.
With a JMRI-like system, I would print out a inventory of where it thinks all the cars are on the layout and then I would have to go move all the cars on the layout to their proper places. For each car missing, I would have to go back to the program and mark them as removed, then somehow replace them with other cars (I'm not even sure JMRI will do that). I would also have to take inventory (by hand) of all the cars that JMRI doesn't know about and add them to the operation roster of the session.
With my car card system, I place the car card against each car, moving cars to their proper place if needed by the waybill. Each card without a car gets filed away in a card drawer (an old library card catalog set) by type. Each car without a card gets removed from the layout until the card is found or re-printed. Then I take inventory of the layout but only by AAR code (XM = boxcar, FB = Bulkhead Flat, TC = chemical tank, etc.). Using this inventory, then I use a program (like Excel) to make new waybills using the last operation's file (I usually only have to make a few changes here and there). Then it's print and chop on the papercutter, then stuff 'em in the card pockets.
The specific advantage for me in a large club setting is that I can have a half dozen guys helping me with the car cards. With a JMRI-like program, it's only a one man operation set up. It would take far longer for me to use JMRI vs. our car cards. But again, we're talking about 600+ cars on a 3000+ sq. ft. layout (and we have another 3000 sq. ft. to build).
On a train cam, I watched a through train, (CN) do some switching, as it dropped off a cut of covered hoppers, and a few center beam lumber loads, to the GLC, in Durand, MI.
My You Tube
If I use JMRI (which I tried), .... Every time someone takes a car off the layout or puts one on, I have to update the program. No, thanks.
Not saying one is better than the other, and I can certainly understand your methods on your club layout, but when someone brings a new car to the layout don't you have to now create and print a new car card? Isnt that basically the same thing as updating the (JMRI) program? I can see removal as maybe a bit easier if someone leaves with the car AND takes their card with them, but if they leave the card on the layout its pretty much the same amount of work as either deleting or putting a car "out of service" in JMRI to me.
Paul3 Sure, the number of cars can change, from zero to a bunch, but the XYZ Factory that makes Brand X isn't going to be doing anything but Brand X as long as it is in business.
Paul,Here's another side of the story of XYZ beer factory that is overlooked by modelers.
XYZ can take a local up to a hour or more to switch depending on the required work and the number of cars and this will include spotting any previous off spot cars to the unloading area..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
The "unpredictability" I referenced is, of course, still within the realm of plausibility. I was speaking of things like the regular load of paper to the printer being broken up by the less often load of ink, or a rare load of new machinery. Or the department store warehouse that receives a wide variety of loads, from appliances, to clothes, to books, to general merchandise, along with a small random chance for something like a box load of seasonal christmas decorations coming in for redistribution to local stores.
No, of course, I would not expect to send coil steel to the newspaper, nor fuel oil to the warehouse, but within the limits of reason, if you have some industries that are not so single purposed like the scrapyard is, it makes it just a little bit more fun and that was the bit of suprise I was referring to. And as I have begun to install a GERN franchise, there is reason for another large variety of incoming and outgoing GERN products. In fact, about 3% more.Yes, in many places in the real world industries can be mundane, but that does not mean I have to suffer with repetition to the point of boring myself to sleep on my own layout either, even if some of the places, like the coal mine, are the same thing, day in and day out.
It doesn’t matter if trains just sit there because they are not generating any revenue anyway. My railroad is 100% subsidized by The United States of Me, and the losses are written off as entertainment expense. Since I am operating alone every train except the current one I am running is stopped ‘in suspended animation’ so having trains stopped while the maintenance crew clears the tracks is no big deal. Sometimes they are working on a siding or on the main next to a siding so other trains can still go through but it just means that the meets will have to take place at a different siding. When it is snowing in the mountains I try to run a flanger between trains. I run a spreader once a day, and run the rotary plows once or twice a year. It’s just part of the fun. As for the daily routine, factories are pretty much the same thing every day but agriculture is very seasonal. During some months there is no traffic at all but when it’s harvest season then it’s super busy.
Brakie,The unpredictability was in reference to the kinds of cars and loads that would show up. In actual use, railroading is a fountain of unpredictability for all the reasons you've stated and many more.
But when you were holding down a local job and you showed up for work in the morning, the cars and loads you switch are pretty much the same kinds of cars and loads you switch every day. I mean, the beer factory you switched out yesterday isn't going to be shipping out turpentine today and carbon black tomorrow. Sure, the number of cars can change, from zero to a bunch, but the XYZ Factory that makes Brand X isn't going to be doing anything but Brand X as long as it is in business.
Over a course of years the job changes quite a bit as companies come and go, but on a day-to-day schedule the switching is pretty constant.
Paul3BTW, unpredictability and surprise are not realistic.
Paul,You would be surprise what can happen during your run.The train ahead goes into emergency and your train stops and waits. The DS parks you in a siding and keeps you there until three opposing trains pass you.
You make good time over the road only to be held outside the yard awaiting a arrival track to open.
You may even wait on the boys in MOW to clear or finish their work.
You can "outlaw" in the middle of no where.
Only modelers has perfect runs.
I am definitely not a "lone wolf" as I'm a member of a large club (65+ members), but I am the Operations Chairman. We currently use 3x5 car cards in 3x4 clear plastic bags (available at Michael's) for pockets. The waybills are 2.5x2.5, more or less.
The reason why we use car cards is due to the flexibility, which is vitally needed for a club layout. On a home layout, your car roster is pretty regular. From ops to ops, you pretty much know what car is going to be on the layout. At our club layout, I never know which cars will be available because the members add and remove cars constantly. Car cards allow me that flexibility. To add or remove a car from the operation, just add or remove the car card. I can even replace a car with ease just be switching the waybill from one card to another.
If I use JMRI (which I tried), it means that I have to keep track of every single car that's on the layout (and at last count, that exceeded 600 cars). Every time someone takes a car off the layout or puts one on, I have to update the program. No, thanks.
BTW, unpredictability and surprise are not realisitic. Real railroading is rather monotonous. It's the same thing, day after day. A local switching crew can pretty much determine which car goes where just by looking at them. For example, I have a local crew that does an area about 1 mile from my house. Every time they come down, the spine cars go to the lumber yard, the tank cars go to the foam fabrication factory, and all the boxcars go to the multi-tenant warehouse. Every day, day after day. The only thing that varies is the amount of cars.
I will tell you that one of my neighbors had a lone wolf operation that was quite interesting. He had a layout with one freight yard and a mainline loop (no local wayfreights) that circled his basement. What he did was create a number of switch lists (like a dozen or so) that listed a freight train's consist in order. When he wanted to operate, he'd grab a switchlist at random and put the train together. He'd run it out of his freight yard to his mainline loop, then lap the layout X number of times, with X being the number of stations/towns on the mainline he was modeling. Say, 8 times or so. Then he'd come back into his freight yard and put the train away in random order (the cars would never go back exactly the same way they came out). If he wanted to run some more, he'd grab another switch list (that listed a completely different train using mostly different cars) and do it again. There was no clock, no schedule, and the paperwork (once created) never had to be modified or re-created ever again. Just re-use the same dozen or so switchlists over and over.
restoratorI like that idea of using events of the real world as a random element and reason for extra runnings. Never though of that.
Not a big fan of that. I worked in jobs that dealt with reponses to real railroad problems and quite frankly 95% of the time the result was that stuff stopped. If you like watching your trains sit there, good plan. I wrote a three part article in the OpSig "Dispatch office" magazine about things that go wrong ("Thing that go bump in the night").
My suggestion is "NOML", "not on my layout". If you want to model a washout, don't model it on YOUR railroad, model it on ANOTHER railroad. If I have a washout on my layout, stuff stops. If the PRR has a washout on one of their lines then I can model a detour train where they operate over my layout to get from one interchange around the problem to a different interchange to get on the line. Plus I can model extra trains of ballast from the quarries to the interchange.
If I have a derailment on my layout, I have to stop all my regular trains and run a wrecker. If I have a derailment on an adjoining line of my railroad, I still get to run the wrecker PLUS I run all my regular trains.
Much better to have the problem on another line off your layout, you still can run all your regular stuff plus get additional opportunities.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
you may interested in Frank Ellison's The Art of Model Railroading.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
As I feel at the time. No paper or cards. The destination of the cars is obvious as they come out of staging on my simple ISL. Dan
Do you use car cards, waybills, timetables, JMRI or other computer generated system?
No, I'd rather spend the time making my models - and don't have enough prototypical knowledge to really operate any of those methods.
Do you more often operate a single train from start to end of the run, or start up multiple trains and have meets?
Do you run every generated train in sequence or just run whatever you feel like at the time?
There is also a separate Nn3 section which is DC. This I can only run when not runing on the main N Scale layout. This narrow gauge runs along the longer inside edge of my L shaped "two doors and a bit" plan. BTW, Tinplate Toddler "hesitates to call his a layout" - don't be fooled he is way too modest and although small, it is exquisite!
"There are always alternatives, Captain" - Spock.
restorator Lone Wolf and Santa Fe When it snows in real life I run snowplows. If there is an earthquake I send out the track inspection car. I like that idea of using events of the real world as a random element and reason for extra runnings. Never though of that.
Lone Wolf and Santa Fe When it snows in real life I run snowplows. If there is an earthquake I send out the track inspection car.
When it snows in real life I run snowplows.
If there is an earthquake I send out the track inspection car.
I like that idea of using events of the real world as a random element and reason for extra runnings. Never though of that.
I thought it up after a real earthquake knocked some cars off of the track and knocked over some figures (people).
Two other events are mud slides and wildfires which are both common. A wildfire in the summer or fall means there will be mudslides when it rains in the winter.
I don't do anything at the moment, as my new layout room is to be built soon.
On my old layout (which presently is disassembled and sits in storage), my simple track plan of a switching layout featured the two towns of West Sandusky and Troubridge. There was a small staging yard where a train was made up (class 1 railroad). The class 1 RR train would back from west of Troubridge east to W. Sadusky and pick up set-outs that the local switcher at West Sandusky would have left the previous day. the class 1 train swaps that cut of cars for the cut of cars delivered. There was a siding for these cars to be spotted and/or set out there. The local switcher at W. Sandusky sorts and delivers and pulls cars at the industries there.
In the mean time, the local locomotive at Troubridge sets out cars from staging onto the interchange track at Troubridge for the W. Sandusky local switcher to sort and deliver cars to the local industries at Troubridge. This small 1.5' x 20' had the capacity for between 25 and 30 cars, which could be taken off the layout and traded out for another set of cars. So, as you can see, there was really no need for any kind of paperwork, just randomly pick and choose the appropriate cars in a consist of anywhere from 4 to 10 cars on the class 1 train bound for W. Sandusky. This was a push-pull operation, so cabooses were mandatory. Even the local W. Sandusky switch job required a caboose when it left to go to Troubridge. The old railroad was simple yet fun. Operating "sessioons" would take between 1 and 1 1/2 hour.
At this point, I have no idea what kind of track plan I will build. I just know that it will be a small layout but bigger than the old railroad. I have been looking at different track plans but havent decided on anything yet. I'm looking forward to having continuous running, I know that much.
I use switchlists and usually run one train anywhere from 5 to 7 cars plus caboose and locomotive. On occasion I have been known to run two and have meets but then operating my layout becomes a little more complicated.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
Car-cards-and-waybills. Mostly single-cycle waybills.
Works great, plenty of variety, easy to start, self-correcting, no need to "complete" a session, minimal reset.
I used interlocked pre-prepared switchlists for a while, CC&WB works better for me.
It's all about personal preference
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group