I found this article, it has microscopic pictures of track. It's 2 pages, pictures on both.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/244795.aspx?page=1
Mike.
My You Tube
No photos or microscope shots, but it does explain what is going on with the scratches and dissimilar metal wheels on NS track. Also why it is important to not only clean Your track, but your rolling stock wheels also, something that I'm sure everyone does not do:
http://www.rjftrains.com/sales/centerline/dirtytrack.htm
Take Care!
Frank
I'll have another look, Larry. I've been trying to mix up the words on my search, trying different variations.
mbinsewi I've done a couple of searches in the Archives, but haven't found anything involving a microscope, as of yet. Lots of articles on building track cleaning cars. Mike.
I've done a couple of searches in the Archives, but haven't found anything involving a microscope, as of yet.
Lots of articles on building track cleaning cars.
Mike,Check the 90s issues if you can.. The article was in MR since that was the only modeling magazine I been reading since '85.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Then it appears there actually haven't been research articles in the model railroad press about track cleaning, itself.
Just "Lots of articles on building track cleaning cars".
Maybe it's time to start.
Ed
BigDaddy Now if MR had a race, say an Intermountain boxcar, drifting down a 0.5% grade. for a $1 million dollar prize. They supply the track on the grade and the boxcar, you can only polish, clean and apply any product you like to the wheels track and trucks, we might learn some tricks for making perfectly smooth track and wheels.
Now if MR had a race, say an Intermountain boxcar, drifting down a 0.5% grade. for a $1 million dollar prize. They supply the track on the grade and the boxcar, you can only polish, clean and apply any product you like to the wheels track and trucks, we might learn some tricks for making perfectly smooth track and wheels.
That would be fun, though I'm not seeing how it relates to keeping track clean.
What I recommend is to build an oval of track. And let's have maybe 6' of straight on each side. On one or both sides, let's have a series of 1 foot track sections. On the middle four, let's have alternating sections: section two and four (out of 6) would be handsomely scrubbed with a Bright Boy, section three and five would be beautifully Gleamed. These processes to be done before installing the track sections. Also, they would be properly "wiped down" with an appropriate solvent.
Then: Start running a locomotive around the loop. And see where it stops from failed pickup. To help the process along, use only two wheel pickup on each side (like in the olden days).
That's a preliminary proposal--fine tuning might be needed. But it's a way to compare two different track "cleaning" methods.
For extra credit, we might start the whole process by setting up the loop with fresh-bought track, and wipe it down with alcohol. Then start running the locomotive and see how long it will run until it fails from bad pickup. Another bit of data.
7j43kOh, I think there's a little bit of science. Recall that I actually took photos of rail surfaces to determine if Bright Boy scratched the rail top*.
I don't doubt that at all. If we get out the electron microscope we can see scratches from 8000 grit sandpaper. Someone earlier in this thread said scratches he can't see don't matter.
Do we know that for sure?
Maybe a scratch that can be seen with 2x maginfication is important and one that can only be seen at 5x is not. We are never going to know what the magic number (2x, 5x, 20, 1000x) is.
Then there are the wheels. Some are machined others are cast. Were they machined with a new cutting bit or a worn out cutting bit? Should we polish those too?
At some point the technogy does not exist to plane down the bump of each molecule to achieve theoretical perfection. Long before there, the effort on the way to perfection exceeds the benefit.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
If you 'polish' railheads you will have to clean them afterward. Some polishes -- Brasso is one -- contain a "protective" additive that forms a film on the surface of the metal that is physically very difficult to remove. There will be crud and embedded abrasive particles and dirt that need to be removed, probably wet.
I can't imagine using any fine grit without a lubricant -- water or one of the polishing formulations with surfactants, etc. As noted, using very fine grit media dry will almost instantly clog between the grains, leaving you with basically a defective lap.
8000 - 12000 grit are for the final pass to 'remove the coarser scratches' visible (at that stage, largely under a loupe) from a previous grit pass. Frankly unless you are doing the model railroad equivalent of speculaire finish/black polish I think there are diminishing returns. None of these fine grits are like an equivalent of Turtle Wax, where you make one 'gleaming' pass over the surface and voila! c'est poli! You have to carefully work, with controlled pressure, and keep inspecting the 'lay' of the surface -- I can't imagine having the patience to do that through all the necessary iterations of finer and finer grit, and none of the current track cleaners even pretend to do it (you might adapt the principle of some of the newer diamond knife sharpeners, with orbital action, using a high-res camera and machine vision to follow the progress, but I'd have to wait a couple of days to post the details of something like that ... scale Loram train, anyone? Profit opportunity making visits just like the real thing to 'profile' the mainline track on various layouts, tours like the circus out and back every spring and fall? Hmmm...).
I strongly suspect that even brand-new nickel silver rail will have defects in the railhead profile; all the versions I've seen are almost ridiculously nonprototypical, and they will have draw marks and nicks depending on how they were fabricated. They must be ground to shape with abrasive, properly cleaned, and then ideally burnished with an appropriate tool (which I believe is what is meant by 'gleaming', but note the preparatory steps) to form the surface finish. Not everyone will care about this, or have/make the tools to bring it about properly.
Once the surface finish, whatever fineness it is, has been perfected, it would be time to apply the No-Ox or other potions that would top-dress the rail. These ought to be much more valuable on drawn/scratched rail than gleamed, as they get into the surface imperfections and solve problems in a number of ways; it might be interesting to test across different environments and track-cleaning styles to see just how long an application of these keeps working (in the various ways) and whether the harm outweighs the good as schmutz builds up again, the same way that too much oil in a jeweled watch eventually turns to evil.
Reading through this thread is deja-vu all over again.
My rail has never been 'clean'. Even after hours of running cleaning cars and hand cleaning, it's still dirty. Running your finger along the top of the rails will leave a black streak on your finger. I think I have tried every method mentioned on the net, and none of them really clean my rails.
I gave up. I spent the better part of a day cleaning the rails by hand using all the cleaning supplies I had bought over the years. I only used an abrasive device on places where there was solder, glue, or paint. I wire brushed the outside of all the switch points and the inside of the stock rail. When done, I coated the rails with graphite. I put a small amount of graphite about every 10'-12' around my layout and then ran my trains.
I have not had any problems with any of my engines since then. None. It's a real pleasure to run my trains without stalling in switches or watching the headlights flicker. I can run 5 engine consist of 3 engines pulling and 2 pushing and not have to worry about cloths lining or bunching.
Now I run my Centerline cleaning car ( dry ) only occasionally to pick up anything that might have fallen on the rails.
This is what works for me.
I was speaking mostly metaphorically.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
I stopped getting MR a few years ago, and so would have missed the track cleaning issue. Anyone know which issue? I wonder if they still sell individual issues anymore. I do recall their knuckle coupler test article. I enjoyed it a lot. As did others.
I don't know about "every" magazine, though. I still get RMC, and don't recall seeing anything there.
I think every RR magazine has a track cleaning story every now and then.
7j43kI think it would make a great series in a model railroad magazine. Ed
Ed,MR had in article covering that several years ago and IIRC the author(s) used a microscope at XXX thousandths zoom to see those micro scratches.
The gook on our rail was human skin flakes,dandruff,bug droppings,dust,electronic dust and other nasty stuff including pet dandruff.
The author(s) also mention the "evil" of Bright Boys and how a track cleaning car using liquid cleaner would be better.
BigDaddy There is no science behind any of these discussions. By that, I mean everyone is running different and possible a variety of wheel sets, in different climates, in different homes with different particles and dirt in the air on a daily or weekly or a couple timea a year schedule.
There is no science behind any of these discussions. By that, I mean everyone is running different and possible a variety of wheel sets, in different climates, in different homes with different particles and dirt in the air on a daily or weekly or a couple timea a year schedule.
Oh, I think there's a little bit of science. Recall that I actually took photos of rail surfaces to determine if Bright Boy scratched the rail top*.
I agree with your second sentence. If anyone were to do further real research in the matter, they'd have to deal with those variables.
I think it would make a great series in a model railroad magazine.
* And so now the discussion turns to whether and/or how bad it is to have the scratches and is the damage moderated/transformed by using finer grit.
You are correct Henry, an additional third forum.
Seems to me the best way to keep track clean is to run lots of trains.
It works for the prototype!
Trainman440 Its come down to basically 2 ways: 1. abrasive track cleaning block 2. using iso alcohol and a towel to wipe
Its come down to basically 2 ways:
1. abrasive track cleaning block
2. using iso alcohol and a towel to wipe
I use a piece of cork glued to a scrap 2X2 to go over the rails. Cheap and you can replace it easily. Results are as good as a brite Boy. Bad spots can be touched up with Isopropyl and then rubbing.
Len S
bearmanI am starting to think that there should be two more forums...one restricted solely to track cleaning and the other one to the "best" DCC starter system.
Bear you forgot the best locomotive forum.
Evidently David Popp and I are the only ones that get a blob of solder on top the rail while soldering feeders. A needle file does leave marks that you can see. Maybe some would agree that visible scratches are a problem, but if the scratches are small enough, they don't matter.
Would the "Gleamers" buy into that. I don't think so. For them all imperfections in the rail are evil.
I am waiting for the eyeglasses version of CRC 2-26 or No Ox or ATF that I can put on my glasses, wipe it off, and not clean my eyeglasses for the next 5 years.
I am starting to think that there should be two more forums...one restricted solely to track cleaning and the other one to the "best" DCC starter system.
These threads on cleaning track are repetitive and basically without merit, or so it seems to me. But, I am never loathe to jump in on pointless discussions.
Who's to say whether nickel silver rail is damaged by some cleaning methods? Scratches? I think that "scratch" is the wrong term. If you read professional papers on sanding metals, the problem isn't scratches but rather that sanding polishes the metal surface making paint adhesion difficult. So, from that point of view, it would seem that sanding rail would be useful is keeping dirt from sticking to it.
Nickel silver is a hard, not soft, metal. It can be polished by using abrasives. Maybe that is why some modelers gleam their rail.
That said, in my experience, I have never found it necessary to use abrasives such as sandpaper. I use denatured alcohol on a white cloth for general track cleaning. For the very toughest spots, I rely on a Bright Boy. I suppose that the Bright Boy can be considered abrasive but, again, since modern scale rail is nickel silver, a hard metal, what's the harm?
Rich
Alton Junction
You're welcome JHarrison, hope they work well please post your results here.
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
I'll go along with that, however with No Ox the really fine scratches don't cause problems. I'm still going to try the Fret Erasers and I'm glad you mentioned them.
Well, we cleared that up.
I understand that abrasives scratch things. And scratches collect dirt (or whatever).
I also understand that gunk on the track will find its way to onto the wheels and, holy cow Batman, that will affect the running of the train.
But here is my question. Aside from probably requiring more passes of the cleaning car (which if you are on a schedule you are doing already) Does the BB or whatever affect the performance of your train between cleanings?
Thanks for your thoughtful replies.
I thought the coarser grits caused more scatches? Which in turn caused more dirt?
NWP SWPI am just saying that if IF you are inclined to use an abrasive the finer the grit the better! The Fret Erasers I suggested go up to 8000 grit and are used for polishing guitars obviously if it's that fine of a grit there's no way it is going to cause problems with rail
Is this based on your experence on your layout??
From my ''real'' experence on my ''real'' layout; I have used 600 grit on problem spots. The grit/paper will clog up on the first pass, and do nothing after that.
I would think 8000 is like useing a dry rag, will not remove anything, just smear the curd.
I suggest that'' if'' you ever get to run on'' your own track'', try it before telling someone else to.
jharrison In my opinion a person stops growing intellectually when he discards new ideas without giving them any consideration. I'm 77 and I refuse to do it.
In my opinion a person stops growing intellectually when he discards new ideas without giving them any consideration. I'm 77 and I refuse to do it.
I'm 70 and learn years ago never to follow a crowd since they may be heading down the old prim rose lane with bad advice..
I do what has work for me for six decades shoot, I still use large HO spikes to hold my track in place..I can salvage my track and spikes in the process of rebuilding..
I am just saying that if IF you are inclined to use an abrasive the finer the grit the better! The Fret Erasers I suggested go up to 8000 grit and are used for polishing guitars obviously if it's that fine of a grit there's no way it is going to cause problems with rail.