My recently acquired Athearn Genesis sound F-units

[khier]

Dear All, 

It was an Ebay offer that I  intercepted in the last few seconds because it was hard to resist: two FA sound units in an excellent condition at less than half MRSP. Auctio won, paid, processed, and good sent and received without problems. 

According to my research through the internet, the Genesis are considered the most accurate, most detailed and finely made F-Units in plastic, and among the most expensive on the market. What I found they are indeed beautifully done, but not that better detailed than Walthers' (which are notmuch less expensive BTW). As far as the sound is concerned, the bell and horn are Ok, but when it comes to the diesel sound it is a different story. There is no start up simulation, the characteristic diesel rattle and coasting sound is missing. It is noise that comes out of the speaker rather than sound. White noise that is supposed to imitate a diesel engine. This decoder, which is made by MRC, is light years behind the Tsunami used in Walthers F-Units. 

The biggest disappointment was, however, the light. There is no way to control the lights with supposedly advanced sound decoder. The head light and mars light are always on. To make things worse, the previous owner (I think) removed the original light unit and installed 3mm red leds -yes red- for the head light and mars light.

As for the decoder, I think replacement is the only remedy, which turns the attractive Ebay deal into a non attractive one. But what about the lights? Does any one know how to order the necessary parts to restore the locomotives to their original look? The horns were broken because the seller used the wrong package and need replacement too. Does any one know how to set this decoder to operate the lights properly (until I get rid of it)?       

Thanks in advance

Walid

[hon30critter]

Hi Walid:

Three suggestions:

1. If you are going to keep the locomotives replace the decoders with Loksound Selects. The Loksounds are light years ahead of anything that MRC offers.

2. In the future avoid eBay bargains! You get what you pay for. If the seller thought that they were great units they wouldn't have listed them so cheap. I suspect that the reason that they were offered for sale is that the seller was as frustrated with them as you are.

3. If you haven't figured this out already, NEVER buy an MRC decoder!!!

Also, Athearn Genesis F series locomotives are not the best detailed locomotives on the market. If you want detail, look at Rapido's F series and be prepared to pay the price.

Dave

[slammin]

I always avoid Genesis sound F7s unless the seller can verify that the decoders are not MRC. Late model Athearn locos also use incandesant bulbs instead of LEDs, which explains why yours have been changed, but red? You may be able to return the units since they were damaged by poor packing and have red headlights. Contact the seller to see if he will work with you. At least he may refund part of your purchase price. Good luck. 

[gmpullman]

khier

It was an Ebay offer that I  intercepted in the last few seconds because it was hard to resist:

Hi, Walid,

I'll second everything Dave mentions above.

When you say you "intercepted" in the last few seconds does that mean that was when you first saw the offering?  In othjer words, an impulse buy?

I have done this, too. Fortunately I've had much better luck because, as the famous quote from the "Music Man" movie says. You gotta know the territory.

Research!  You will find quite a few threads here and on other forums with regard to MRC sound decoders. Read those and you might have a better understanding of their shortcomings.

I've bought just over two-dozen Genesis F3 and F7s over the years, most of those from Ebay, and they were all straight DC. I installed my own Loksound select decoders and on a few I have installed TCS WOWsound decoders.

Many of the Genesis F type locomotives have pickup problems due to some plastic interference in the truck side frames. You might have to address this, or maybe they have run in enough to cure it.

The best bet for headlights is to learn how to use and install LEDs. One of the major complaints with Genesis locomotives were the 1.5 volt micro lamps Athearn used. They tended to burn out quickly. Athearn has finally begun, years after other manufacturers have, using LEDs for lighting. Genesis F units use the former Highliners shell so the number boards do not illuminate  I like to see number boards lit.

Not knowing how the original owner has the headlights wired you will have to open the shell and take a look inside. A blue wire would be the common + which supplies approximately 12 volts. For the front headlight the white wire would be used for the headlight in forward, the yellow for reverse (only a few genesis F units have backup lights)

If you do install LEDs you would need a resistor (1K is common) on one of the leads to the LED.

Good Luck, Ed

[khier]

Dear All, 

Thank you all for your  suggestions. It is indeed very informative ad even raised points I dropped to keep the discussion focused. My responce is neither according  to specific order nor personalized, but in noway ignoring or undermining any of the feedbacks which I appreciate all.

 

Except for the lousy head lights, the locos are too nice to give away. Bear in mind they are not easy to find here  in Europe, and considered some what exotic. Import from the US involves high shipping and import/sales taxes, which limit the whole thing to sale items and special offers.

When I say intercepted I mean I noticed the auctions in the last few seconds. It did not take me long to decide when I saw they are offered at, or even below 50% the US MRSP.

Frankly, I did not expect a premium  series like the Genesis to be equipped by such a quircky decoder. In fact, I did not imagine the light functions to be missed in a sound decoder made in the 21st century.

I fully disagree with Ebay bargains. I have had mostly excellent experience with Ebay deals.  

Rapido F-units, although never seen in real life, are certainly excellent. However, seems overpriced for what they are. But as said, never seen in real life.

LEDs are not a big deal. I also have equipment to solder SMD (but not that skilled). The problem is not the LEDs themselves, but the missing headlight and glass itself. Currently red  (yes RED) LED is hanging out the opening where the head light is supposed to be.

I encountered the pick up problem. The locs causes the command station to report short circuit once they touch the tracks. I have to put them first then connect the command station to the tracks. The same has to be repeated each time the emergency stop is activated.

Regards

Walid

 

 

 

[slammin]

Khier,

If you would add your location to your signature it would help forum members address your questions. Later you mentioned being in Europe, which changes a lot of solutions. 

[Paul3]

Walid,
For starters, you may want to re-examine your F-units and compare them to the Walthers ones again.  Things that are molded on to the Walthers shell tends to be a separate part on a Genesis, and perhaps photoetched brass parts at that. 

Also, the Genesis has the reputation of being a 100% accurate model of the F-unit nose.  Athearn bought the tooling info from Highliners back in 2000 or so as Highliners never was able to bring the A-unit to market (Highliners B-units came out years before).  Paul Lubliner of Highliners had measured three different F-units using a 1" grid and averaged the results.  Athearn purchased the existing B-unit tooling, tooled up the A-unit and made the Genesis F-units based on the Highliners data starting in July 2001.

Sound was not introduced into the Athearn Genesis line until early 2003 with the release of the UP Challenger 4-6-6-4.  By this time, Horizon Hobby had bought Athearn.  Horizon Hobby is a distributer like Walthers, but more for R/C cars, boats and airplanes.  They are not train people.  Horizon looked at the market, saw BLI's success with sound, and then picked the cheapest option available in MRC.  Not the best; the cheapest.  A 5-year contract, it lasted until 2008. 

Sound wasn't installed into Genesis F-units until June 2005, and of course, they used MRC.  They stayed with MRC for until 2008, so any Athearn Genesis F-units made between June 2005 and May 2008 have MRC sound decoders.  Since then, Genesis sound decoders have been Soundtraxx Tsunamis.  F-units made from mid-2008 to now have been Tsunamis.

MRC decoders are J-U-N-K.  They are horribly inaccurate, you can't read them, the quality of the sound recording is laughable, and they have a 50% failure rate at my club.  Never buy anything with an MRC decoder installed unless you're going to strip it out and put in something that's actually good.

So, yes, the MRC decoder in your Athearn Genesis F-unit is light years behind the Soundtraxx Tsunamis. 

After all, the MRC deoders are at least 10 years old.

 

[riogrande5761]

Walid,

Regarding expected Genesis quality - this is where it comes in very handy to know your product and it's back ground.  I'm not much of a student of MRC decoders but I have read enough over the years to stay completely away from them, and avoid buying Athearn Genesis engines equipped with them.  Paul gave a fairly indepth commontary on the early Athearn Genesis F units and his info sounds correct to my memory.

[khier]

Thank you all for your contributions.

Yes, I wiil stay away from any MRC in the future, and from any Genesis equipped with it. I learned that the hard way.

As I said before, replacing the decoders will not be a problem (hopefully). What I need to do is to replace that funny lighting installed by the previous owner. Therfore I need to order replacement for the entire lighting unit. Only then I can start thinking about bringing LEDs inside. It will be great if there is a tutorial or guide online. I do not need information on how to calculate the limiting resistance for an LED. What I need is how  to install LED for this particular, or similar locmotive made by Athearn.

 

Regards

 

Walid

[hon30critter]

Hi Walid!

The real F units had flat glass in front of the actual headlight. A company called LaserKit makes lenses for the Athearn headlights. They come as part of a window glazing kit, and they pop into place very securely. No glue required. I have used several of their products and the fit is incredibly good.

http://www.laserkit.com/laserkit.htm

As far as which LED to use, the easiest would be a warm white 3mm round top like these on eBay:

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/50pcs-F3-3mm-Warm-White-Round-Superbright-LED-lamp-LED-Light-S8/381397187752?hash=item58cd0b3ca8:g:YQIAAOSwLqFV8jis

Installing the LED is easy. I use a little epoxy glue to hold the LED in place. The 3mm LEDs fit the headlight opening quite well. You may want to use some heat shrink tubing around the LED to make it fit tighter in the opening and more importantly to block light from shining out of the bottom of the shell. Use a 1000 ohm 1/4 watt resistor. You can solder the resistor to either of the LED leads. You can get away with just the LED and not the flat lens, but IMHO the lens looks so much better.

Dave

 

 

 

[khier]

hon30critter

Hi Walid!

The real F units had flat glass in front of the actual headlight. A company called LaserKit makes lenses for the Athearn headlights. ....

Thanks, Dave for the link. The glass  is actually what I was looking for. I thought I should digg in Athearn spare parts lists to get it.But did not the F7 had integrated dual light? Or let me put it this way, why does Athearn fit two bulbs in the head light? Because of this dual arrangement I was thinking about LED smaller than 3mm, which means SMD.

And BTW, 850 ohm are enough .... Just kidding, 1k ohm will certainly  work.  

Regards

 

Walid

[khier]

Dave,

I have checked the link. I could not find head light cover in the Athearn detail kit. Did you mean light cover or using one of the round windows as light cover?

 

Regards

 

Walid

[hon30critter]

khier

I have checked the link. I could not find head light cover in the Athearn detail kit. Did you mean light cover or using one of the round windows as light cover?

Hi Walid:

The glazing kits that I used were actually for LifeLike E7s. The headlight lens is not mentioned in the description but it is specifically made for the headlight. It is not a side window.

I'm pretty sure the Athearn sets would also have the headlight lens, but you can find out for sure by contacting LaserKit.

As far as the twin bulbs go, I wonder if they were used to simulate a Mars light. I'm not familiar with Athearn F series. Maybe somebody else can answer your question better.

Dave

[Spalato68]

Dear Walid,

 

My suggestion is to contact Athearn, they maybe still have (dual) headlight assembly for your locomotive. At least, this was true 5 years ago, see here:

 

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/217566.aspx

 

Of course, you still need lens cover, as stated in other posts here.

Then, if you get this, my second suggestion is to use fiber optics and LED instead of bulbs. Some info on fiber optics can be read here:

 

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/268534.aspx

 

How to make “bulb” out of fiber optics, you can read in “Modeling Clinics by Rick Bell” (yahoo group). His file “Athearn Genesis F7 Sound Install.pdf“ is great help.

 

In short, after you cut fiber optics to required length, put it in a drill chuck and rotate slowly while positioning a match or lighter to melt the tip of fiber optics, which will cause it to look like a head of bulb. It requires some practice, but at the end, you can get a nice „bulb“ form.

 

Of if you do not want to join the group, send me a message, I will send you the file.

 

The rest is relatively easy – after you position fiber optic rod into dual light assembly, glue LED to the other end, and you have a light that is very similar to original bulb light.

 

I used this method to replace dual bulbs in my Athearn NYC F7 which came with dual lights (bulbs). I used shrink tube to hide LED, to avoid light penetration outside, but also to have a support for LED&fiber optics rod (I glued the whole assembly to the inside of locomotive shell).

 

You can try to use just one LED (e.g. 3 mm, which will light both fiber optic rods), instead of gluing two SMD LED’s to each rod.

 

Here is one picture of original NYC F7 with dual lights:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/78469770@N00/3150210854

 

I do not know if prototype of your locomotive used both lights simultaneously, or not – maybe after you provide more details on your locomotive, other forum members from USA can help. If each light was used separately, then option with one LED is not what you should use.

 

Hrvoje

[khier]

Dear Dave, Dear Hrvoje,

Thanks a lot for your feedback.

The application of optic fibres is a brilliant idea, which led me to think about another possibility. If space allows, these 2mm flat top LEDs can be used:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/100pcs-2mm-Red-Diffused-LED-Diodes-Flat-Top-Leds-Light-Red-Lens-Free-Shipping/221477046835?hash=item33910f8a33:g:RSAAAOSwcnpTq9Jp

or rounded head like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/100pcs-2mm-Orange-Diffused-LED-Diodes-Round-Top-Leds-Light-Lamp-Free-Shipping/321892257548?epid=1147206502&hash=item4af2460f0c:g:yF8AAOSwAYtWHKnT

All what I need is a disc of scratch plastic cut to appropriate size. I wish my 3D printer or my CNC router were properly set up to cut this for me.

I could not find the parts list, but I found an exploded view of the locomotive showing the parts.

https://tonystrains.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Genesis-F7-Diagram-001-001.png

It shows the parts I need to buy (or scratchbuild): The reflector housings, Dual sealed beam, Vertical Gyralight, Glass, and bulbs, how many? is not clear. This sheet also shows a red bulb. My question is, did the F7 ever had red light at the nose?

Regards

Walid

[gmpullman]

That's the method I used as well, fiber optic filament and a Detail Associates 1012 Pyle dual sealed beam adapter.

IMG_8934_fix by Edmund, on Flickr

The E9 of course, has the outside gasket headlight lens (cover glass) unlike the earlier model EMDs. This model happens to be a Proto 2000 E9 but the Genesis will be very similar (minus the illuminated number boards).

This is the adapter plate with two short lengths of IIRC 2mm filament. I heat the end to flare it out and make a "lens" out of it. 

IMG_8922_fix by Edmund, on Flickr

I also used the same method for a Genesis B&O B unit with a back-up light. The Athearn dual sealed beam adapter is a hefty brass casting if you can find one.

khier

This sheet also shows a red bulb. My question is, did the F7 ever had red light at the nose?

ATSF_mars by Edmund, on Flickr

Good Luck, Ed

[khier]

Thank you all for your contributions. The Detail Associates and clear covers are what I was looking for. I will try to fit 1.5 mm LEDs, if not, the optic fibres, and see which one goes easier. I will certainly restore the original look of the locomotive with two dual light units. If red, Mars or constant light will be used depends on the available functions of the future decoder, which will be probably a Tsunami to match my Walthers F-units.

Regards

 

Walid

[Spalato68]

Walid,

if you will use optic fibre, when you cut it (you even can use pliers), you have to make them flat with sanding paper. I use several "grades" (I do not know how to say it properly), start with e.g. 600 and end with 2000, so very fine paper. After that I rub the end of fibre that LED will be attached to (or just positioned in front of it) on some cloth, it has to be smooth cloth (e.g. cotton). The purpose of this is to make optic fibre as clear as possible to enable transfer of light as much as possible. On the other end, if you will use "melting method", this procedure is not required. Just flatten this side with sanding paper (ok, you also can use some fine "grade" for that), but heat will do the rest. 

Hrvoje

[khier]

Spalato68

 "grades" (I do not know how to say it properly

 

It is called grades

 

Regards, and again, many thanks.

 

Walid

[BigDaddy]

Hrvoje  Your English is excellent, fibre is spelled fiber on this side of the ocean but spelling is not what Americans are known for, especially these days. 

My grandparents were from north of Kalovac: Vini Vhr and Slapno.  My cousin is much more into geology and the old country than I am. He runs a Facebook Croatian group.

Now back to your regularly scheduled model railroading.

 

 

[BRAKIE]

hon30critter

2. In the future avoid eBay bargains! You get what you pay for. If the seller thought that they were great units they wouldn't have listed them so cheap. I suspect that the reason that they were offered for sale is that the seller was as frustrated with them as you are.

Some of my best Atlas/Kato engines was bought  less then $50.00 on e-Bay and most of  my P2K less then $60.00.

There's high and low price junk on the bay as well.Know what you're looking at and flee if the seller posted dark photos.

[gmpullman]

BigDaddy

Hrvoje  Your English is excellent, fibre is spelled fiber on this side of the ocean but spelling is not what Americans are known for, especially these days. 

Here's a handy reference 

http://www.studyenglishtoday.net/british-american-spelling.html

I always make fun of the "fancy" spellings that allow proprietors of some businesses to think they have more "class" by using their version of elitism.

How many shopping malls or condominiums do you see named "Something Pointe" Or the classic "Ye Olde Candy Shoppe" or one of my favorites, "Ristorante".

OK, NOW back to trains.

Ed

[khier]

Now I am going a bit off-topic....

There are several nice Genesis F-units on Ebay. Some do not have a DCC plug. Is there any picularities in converting these Athearn non-DCC (without a plug) to a DCC locomotives? Excuse me please if the question seems silly, but after that experience I had -a piece of junk inside a top H0 model- Athearn seems like a box of chocolates in my eyes, you never know what you're gonna get, as Forrest's mom used to tell him.

 

Regards

 

Walid

[gmpullman]

Hi

The Genesis F3 and F7 A and B units I purchased, totaling about thirty, nearly all from Ebay, were DC only with no decoder. They are very easy to install sound decoders and speakers in them. This also gives you the opportunity to go over the mechanical and electrical issues.

 http://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Installation_Pictures/HO_Scale/Athearn/F3B%20WK/F3B%20WK.html

For instance, the truck pick-up wires attach to the bronze contact points using a small plastic clip. With a little disassembly you can solder good, flexible wire to these to bring power to your decoder. In some cases I've seen these wires have broken off due to the sharp edge meeting the plastic clip.

It also gives you a chance to choose the decoder and speaker of your choice. 

As you found out, the headlight can be tricky since you usually have to wire it to the body shell and make sure it does not get pinched when you re-assemble it. Other manufacturers use an LED on a standoff so that it aligns with the lens when the shell is put on. I have not attempted to do this. I usually use a small plug for the headlight wires.

http://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Installation_Pictures/HO_Scale/Athearn/F3A%20WK/F3A%20WK.html

 

Once you complete one you will be familiar enough that the rest will be simple. Of course, B units are even easier with more room and, in some cases, no additional lighting (you can use two speakers if you like). Some of the B&O and PRR B units I have done have the backup light. The railroads added many of them in later years.

This was my most recent Ebay find. Brand new A-B set, DC, no one else bid on them and they were under $100 for the pair 

IMG_9002_fix by Edmund, on Flickr

I have Loksound Selects in both of them which is my preferred decoder but there are many that will fit the Genesis F series. Some are direct board replacements, as shown in the TCS links above.

Hope that helps, Ed