rrinkerThere's an auto repair shop near me called Joe's Garage.
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Do they have a beat up old Dodge? Maybe a 1954 with a mashed-up door? And just enough room for a cheesy little amp?
-Kevin
Living the dream.
This does not materially have anything to do with the original question. But being forgetful (as others on the forum here have likewise admitted), I plugged a standard nightlight into the power strip that houses plugs from the NCE system. The nightlight is left in the "on" position, so that I know if I am walking out of the basement and that night light is on, then I've forgotten to turn off the power strip that drives the layout. No nightlight, good to go.
Robert
rrinker There's an auto repair shop near me called Joe's Garage.
There's an auto repair shop near me called Joe's Garage. I dunno if on purpose, or the guy just happens to be named Joe..
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Doughless I'm thinking that if I could hear Overmod speak his posts in a James Earl Jones voice it would be really cool!
I'm thinking that if I could hear Overmod speak his posts in a James Earl Jones voice it would be really cool!
With or without the black helmet heavy-breathing effects?
Thank you for not having brought up the Central Scrutinizer voice...
or invoking the Ronald McDonald of the nouveau abstruse...
In a typical house the convenience circuits are 15 amps. These are located in the living room, the bedrooms and bathrooms and the garage. In the kitchen and the dinning room 20 amp circuits are required by code. These are higher amp circuits so that you can plug in appliances like toasters and electric frying pans. The first thing I learned as an electrician is to always treat all installed wires as if they are hot. If you are doing new construction that has never been hooked up then that is one thing but any old work should always be considered hot. However if you are safe, working with hot circuits is no problem. That is why tools are insulated. One time we did a service call at a large truck dealer. They had a coffee maker that burned up. When we tried to figure out why the breaker didn’t trip we couldn’t even figure out which breaker it was. When we turned off the breaker it was supposed to be the wire was still hot. Finally after opening up every electrical box we found a junction box that someone had wire-nutted to different circuits together…. Also sometimes people will switch the neutral wire instead of the hot so turning off the light switch won’t stop you from getting shocked. As for power strips, they have a lower amp rating than the house circuit. It is dependant on the wire size and the other components. It should be marked on it somewhere. The same with extension cords.
gmpullman richhotrain I would take the extra precaution of disconnecting the hot wire from the switch in question. There are LOTO breaker lock out devices available: LOTO_breaker by Edmund, on Flickr Used to use them all the time, Ed
richhotrain I would take the extra precaution of disconnecting the hot wire from the switch in question.
There are LOTO breaker lock out devices available:
LOTO_breaker by Edmund, on Flickr
Used to use them all the time,
Ed
Alton Junction
richhotrainI would take the extra precaution of disconnecting the hot wire from the switch in question.
I think that JEJ may be a model railroader.
Rich
- Douglas
rrinkerthe wall switch controlling the light was still off (and properly on the hot side, of a properly wired circuit - which is not always the case so it is not a reliable way to cut power)
Note that prior to 1937 he would have been safe no matter how incompetent his wiring might have been if he had used the old standard double switch (which interrupts both the hot and neutral conductors going to the fixture). Interestingly these were made illegal for new "licensed" construction, precisely because they might make the ignorant unwary in the assumption that a continuous-neutral fixture would be as safe to work on, when for a variety of reasons it is not.
A fun trait of licensed electricians in the portions of the South I have lived is to randomly change not only the polarity, but the wire color in intermediate circuit runs. I have to wonder if this was done in the same spirit as small-town Southern real-estate lawyering, since after all the 'hoi' aren't supposed to be messing with licensed-electrician-only parts of the premise wiring, to penalize those so bold as to question the need for professional compensation in all respects. On the other hand, Hanlon's razor shaves many of these situations rather well.
Can someone explain to me how to implement lockout effectively on house breakers, where there is no effective way to apply a lock either to the breaker or to the enclosure? And is there someone who has developed the tag equivalent of the Billups Neon Crossing Signal that can be applied and reapplied over breaker(s) that need to be off no matter how 'helpful' or inconvenienced other users of the premises may be?
There is an amusing side note to this, concerning mid-Seventies Cadillacs. These tended to be driven by a cohort which, shall we say, was often accustomed to getting their way 'no matter what' and not be inconvenienced, let alone yield the right of way or stop, in the 'swift completion of their appointed rounds'. In this situation it became desirable to implement the low-coolant-hot-engine warning system, in a way which would most effectively assure the car being stopped stat and the engine turned off until cool even if the Florida socialite were late to her bridge club.
I can almost picture the engineer's meetings at GM designing, and then testing, the low-water alarm for this car. What they actually built ought to have been used on heavy steam locomotives; it's that good. The Chrysler Air Raid Siren is less alarming when it goes off. If you hear it, you'll pull over and shut down just to make it stop. This is the spirit in which tag-out for 'consumers' probably needs to be designed and implemented...
rrinker BTW the guy in the story didn;t get shocked, the wall switch controlling the light was still off (and properly on the hot side, of a properly wired circuit - which is not always the case so it is not a reliable way to cut power), plus he was wearing gloves. The irony was he was showing a new guy how to do things safely.
BTW the guy in the story didn;t get shocked, the wall switch controlling the light was still off (and properly on the hot side, of a properly wired circuit - which is not always the case so it is not a reliable way to cut power), plus he was wearing gloves. The irony was he was showing a new guy how to do things safely.
I'm not sure anyone else in my house even knows where the breaker box is, so I feel pretty safe shutting off the breaker to work on things. ANd it's too high for the dogs or cat to reach, so even if they wanted to off me, they couldn't.
I expect to be doing at least some of the work in reqiring my basement as I rebuild, but it will be checked by a licensed electrician and of course is subject to inspection. It will take longer if i DIY some of it, but it will save a bit of money.
rrinker I was just related a story today, a guy was working on replacing an overhead light. Turned off the wall switch, turned off the associated breaker. Verified the line was completely dead with a meter. Halfway through working on the light, another guy came in and said hey, the lights were all out, so I flipped that breaker on...... No matter how careful YOU are, it's the OTHER idiot that gets people hurt. --Randy
I was just related a story today, a guy was working on replacing an overhead light. Turned off the wall switch, turned off the associated breaker. Verified the line was completely dead with a meter. Halfway through working on the light, another guy came in and said hey, the lights were all out, so I flipped that breaker on...... No matter how careful YOU are, it's the OTHER idiot that gets people hurt.
Like the guy in Randy's story, I do turn off the circuit breaker in the service panel when I work on an active circuit. But if I thought that others would enter the workplace as happened in Randy's story, I would take the extra precaution of disconnecting the hot wire from the switch in question.
Randy, OMG.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
rrinker I was just related a story today, a guy was working on replacing an overhead light. Turned off the wall switch, turned off the associated breaker. Verified the line was completely dead with a meter. Halfway through working on the light, another guy came in and said hey, the lights were all out, so I flipped that breaker on...... No matter how careful YOU are, it's the OTHER idiot that gets people hurt.
Yep, that's what "lockout-tag out" is all about, which obviously wasn't followed.
Mike.
My You Tube
Well, a single outlet surge protector is rather rare (I know they DO make them), so when I hear surge protector I think the kind that looks like a power strip..
I may not be dumb enough to overload the power strips, you may not be dumb enough to overload the power strip, no one reading this may be dumb enough to overload the power strips. But everyone reading this isn;t everyone - just read some social media posts. It's happened, it's caused fires, and is thus verboten by the fire code and/or electrical code. Even if there is exactly ONE 5 amp load plugged into a 15 amp rated pair of power strips, or power strip plugged into a surge protector, in a 15 amp outlet, thus posing exactly ZERO danger, it's not what's plugged in NOW, it's that the potential exists.
rrinkerThe fact that it does allow you to have (let's say you use 7 outlet strips) 49(!) things plugged into one outlet is what sets off the alarm bells. Actually, use 2 strips, plus a full 7 plugged into that one - that's NINETY EIGHT things plugged into one wall outlet. Nope.
Randy, what part of 'carefully measure the peak load plugged into the strips' seems to be too difficult to comprehend? Just because I have a hammer and 49 places to drive nails doesn't mean I nail every one just because I can. There is still a place for common sense in this world, and what the Bear was (and is) talking about involves that common sense.
Of course, the original problem appeared to be just one power strip plugged into a separate surge module, which is hardly a fan-out extravaganza even for modern nanny-state types. I'm going to have to find out locally what the common-sense reason for banning that one was supposed to be.
Then I am ok I think. I do not run any other equipment when I am running trains. And the breakers trip, when I installed them I created a short and they did their thing.
Fair enough, Overmod.
Power strips plugged into power strips are always a no-no. No fire marshal will allow that if they sea it. It doesn;t matter if you only have a small load plugged into it, well withint he capacity of the strips, outlet, and circuit. The fact that it does allow you to have (let's say you use 7 outlet strips) 49(!) things plugged into one outlet is what sets off the alarm bells. Actually, use 2 strips, plus a full 7 plugged into that one - that's NINETY EIGHT things plugged into one wall outlet. Nope.
Especially in an office setting, where even if it's 80 degrees, someone will be cold and bring in a portable heater. But it's just s amall one - well, most of those small ones draw the same 1500 watts as a bigger one. The only thing you can count oin is a properly inspected wall outlet and circuit - that will trip the breaker on an overload and not burn down the building first. But power strips? Wha happens if you overload that (but not by enough to overload the circuit breaker for the wall outlet?)? Does it have a breaker that reliably trips? Does it just get hot and melt into the floor?
bearmanNow, I know that you have not personally examined my layout, or my layout wiring or my house wiring. But you did appear to indicate in your first reply that daisy chaining the power strip may not necessarily be a bad thing. So, what do you think as opposed to what you know?
Personally I wouldn't hesitate for a moment in running a powerstrip through a modular surge protector into a 15amp outlet. I have routinely run multiple powerstrips in adjacent plugs on those six-outlet 'plug-in' wall adapters that often feature 'surge protection' ... but am careful to keep an eye on the potential peak draw if all the connected devices should be active at the same time. As I think you should, if you don't already.
But then, I'm not a fire marshal. And I fell for the idea of whole-house surge protection for a while, too (and in the interests of fair disclosure, for that 1/8" polybutylene water-distribution system that mimicked electrical service -- until I built a couple of spec houses that used it!) so I don't claim superior knowledge about potential issues or failure modes.
Overmod, I have a degree in civil engineering. I am licensed in two states. I graduated from college and the only courses that kept me from graduating with honors is the physics course in electricity and magnatism, and introduction to electrical engineering for non EE majors. In the later case, I think the professor took pity on me and passed me. Suffice it to say that I did not do well in those two courses.
I do appreciate your rather extensive explanation. However, ultimately all I really want to know is can I daisy chain a power strip dedicated to my layour power off of a surge protector plugged into a wall outlet. The circuit is in fact a 15 amp circuit and the draw when I am running trains is less than 2 amps. My 2 circuit breakers are set for a 2 amp trip current.
Now, I know that you have not personally examined my layout, or my layout wiring or my house wiring. But you did appear to indicate in your first reply that daisy chaining the power strip may not necessarily be a bad thing. So, what do you think as opposed to what you know?
Going back to my home inspector training classes, the circuit you have all this stuff plugged into, could/would eventually get overloaded, which heats things up, and trips the breaker, hopefully, if all is working right, and repeated tripping of said breaker causes it to get weak.
Generally, outlets are wired for 15 amps, using 14ga. wire, but you don't know that unless the main panel is clearly marked, so you can see what size breaker is feeding the circuit your power strips are plugged into.
Office, and generally kitchens, and utility rooms, are wired for 20 amps, using 12 ga wire, and a 20 amp breaker.
Consider the surge protector, plugged into a 15 amp circuit, with a couple of computers, or maybe a printer, etc, plugged into that. Than someone uses a remaing outlet on the surge protector and plugs in a power strip, powering maybe a space heater, microwave, coffee machine, et., etc. Overload. Power strips are usually clearly marked as to there designed amperage.
Maybe that was the fire inspectors issue. Don't know, no body asked.
I will also add that electricity was not one of my stronger areas. I'm more of a structural guy.
OK, here's a first try. You may indicate if it is adequate or if a different approach is desirable.
Electricity can be 'measured' by both volts and amperes, which are often compared to "pressure" and "volume" of water molecules traveling through a pipe. Power is transmitted through the movement of electrons (don't ask me their fine structure, but that's not important here) -- in DC, the electrons move in one general direction, in AC, they cycle back and forth, a bit like sloshing water, but in both cases the flow of the current (now you see why that word was chosen) conveys the energy.
Most power systems have a nominal voltage, or pressure. This is complicated a bit for standard (or well-synthesized) AC, because the peak voltage is somewhat higher than the 'rated' voltage for reasons related to boring trigonometry of sine waves, something on which there will be no test here, but even the peak voltage is not radically higher and AC equipment is built and insulated to account for it.
On the other hand, it is possible for 'spikes' of much higher voltage to occur on a power line. Lightning is one obvious cause; the voltage induced by a collapsing magnetic field can be another; some forms of electromagnetic pulse (sometimes seen in the media as EMP) can induce them. The purpose of a 'surge protector' is to eliminate any chance that these spikes, which can have a very short effective rise time, will damage connected equipment.
I digress for a moment to mention that one of the critical issues with overvoltage spikes involves certain types of modern miniaturized circuits, particularly devices known as metal-oxide semiconductor field-effect transistors or MOSFETs. These are not tolerant of higher voltages because parts of their structure are essentially so thin that they act as fuses, or are damaged when even small currents flow between elements that aren't supposed to be joined.
So what is needed in a surge protector is a device that acts as a 'voltage clamp' that can operate very quickly (you may notice in the specs for a particular surge protector that it will nominally act within the range of older computer-memory speed, in nanoseconds) when it encounters a high-voltage pulse, but otherwise passes current without much resistance (thereby generating heat). One common component is a varistor (short for "variable resistor") constructed so that its effective resistance increases with voltage. This blocks the transmission of the high voltage to the protected device ... but this is only half what a surge protector (or lightning arrester) needs to do. There is still energy in the pulse, which has to be dissipated safely in some way. This is done by providing a relatively low-resistance path for the pulse to go to 'ground' (I'll let someone like Sheldon explain how this is actually structured in power electrics, but it's basically a near-infinite sink for electron flow in the pulse) and most surge protectors use the ground pin of a three-wire plug for this.
Now it will immediately occur to some of you that if there is any stray energization on the ground (for example, partial insulation failure in old air conditioners), or if someone has used one of those three-to-two-prong adapters and not connected that little pigtail correctly, there may be problems with how effectively the pulse can be dissipated. This does not necessarily mean that the device will not protect, but it may mean that the active component inside it can be damaged or effectively destroyed with just one 'event'. I used to see this depressingly frequently when 'cheaper' surge protectors came on the market with the boom in home computing.
A plug-in surge protector is limited by the actual capacity of the three sets of contacts in the receptacle plus the capacity of its engaging prongs. Generally this is ample for what's actually required of a copper-to-copper AC connection, but there's a wide variety of things that can make this 'invisibly' compromised, including arcing in the receptacle and resulting contact erosion when plugs are repeatedly inserted and removed with load on them. The same may be true of the socket in the plug-in protector. Note that there are limits on the number of sequential plug connections that are desirable in a consumer AC system (you see this reflected, although usually wire capacity is the stated reason, in label restrictions on daisy-chaining extension cords) and it is quite possible that "three" would be considered 'too many' in the case that was mentioned earlier, particularly if the integrity of those plug connections was not well known.
Is that enough to make it reasonably comprehensible so far?
Wall outlets are rated for different amount of Amps depending upon their intended use. It may not be a problem if the installed outlet has a high enough amperage rating.
Typical household outlets are rated for about 15 amps I believe.
Overmod, if you could translate into English I would be thankful.
bearmanI am impressed Overmod, and I also dont understand a word that you have written.
I can translate into English, perhaps even avoiding MEGO syndrome induction, if you are actually interested in this stuff.
I guess I have a fundamentally different administrative style -- whenever we had some kind of a violation, I'd ask the reason rather than just keeping quiet and throwing money at what might well be the wrong thing. I have never known either a fire inspector or an insurance underwriting guy who wouldn't tell you exactly what you should remediate, and why it should be done. Just as I have never known a Federal official from any agency who wouldn't explain how their inspection priorities and desired compliance behavior would be structured.
Naturally this wouldn't be phrased as "why are you writing me up" defensiveness. Some of us didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday and know how to talk to professionals without insulting them. And be proactively clear about quickly remediating whatever the issue is. Just asking why daisy-chaining devices in a wall receptacle could constitute danger would be interesting to know -- and yes, I think whatever he gave as a reason would be good to know for general reasons. Now you'll never know.
OvermodWhy did you not ask him??? As an ex-card-carrying member of the IEEE, I see no sound 'electrical' reason why a multiple outlet or strip that is intelligently used could not be plugged into a surge-protected receptacle.
The were not plugged into a surge protected outlet, but a portable surge protector that plugged into an outlet.
We NEVER argue with any official. We find out how to become compliant and follow instructions. If we can fix the offending issue with money, then it is not a real problem. If we can't, we call engineering.
Either way, I just need to stay on the right side of this.
My business is not arguing with fire marshalls. I make money elsewhere, so I just need to satisfy his concerns and move on.