Is foam the best material avaible for shaping hills, mountains and riverbed? Is there other technic used for scenery?
What would be the best comprehensive book, video and magazine for starting a project from start to finish? In your opinion.
Thank you for your anwser
Well, yes, there are other techniques. To kill two questions with the same answer, I would recommend Dave Frary's book on building scenery. He pretty much covers all the techniques in the book, including the use of plaster-coated towels over screen and the use of rubber molds. But the book does not cover benchwork, trackwork, electricals and other items that would be included in the "start to finish" phases.
Simon
Hi PatKen,
This is just a suggestion. It's generally helpful with garnering responses from other forum members if you are more explicit in your choice of subject titles - e.g. something like "Is foam best for scenery?" might be a better one? A good title helps steer the knowledgeable folks you want towards your thread and you are more likely to get an answer to your question more quickly. Given that most threads on the forum are generally queries, imagine if all of them had the exact same title of "Question?"
Again, it's just a suggestion but some forum members will pass over your thread because your subject title is nondescript...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I agree with Tom, please put in your subject line a bit more about what you are insterested in. It's not fair on forum members to make the click on your post to see what you want.
What is best? That depends on who you ask. Some use foam and carve it. Foam sheets are more costly. I used cardboard strips which are almost free if you cut them from old cardboard boxes - the only expense really is the hot glue sticks. I went a little crazy with mine but you don't have to. Then I put plaster gauze over the webbing - another expense but if you order 5 lb rolls from Activa on Amazon it's much cheaper than Woodland Scenics or Scenic express:
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
PatKen - Start the thought process from the other end. Get a mental image of what you want the finished product to look like, then work back to the materials & methods: layered rock, tree covered hillside, gravel, etc. Foam's good for hillsides blasted with dynamite but other methods are better & easier for roling hills. An author by the name of Dave Frary is good at that stuff and wrote "How to Build Realistic Model Railroad Scenery' available from Kalmbach.
I've got a lot of books, but I don't remember anything that's in them so I can't recommend anything. What I've been doing is going on YouTube and searching what whatever I wanted to learn. You can watch several different techniques for each project you have in mind then take the best of them. I do this and stuff comes out better than a single reference.
For instance lately I wanted to see how to make large trees to HO scale--like 300 plus foot douglas fir trees. 5 years ago I looked through books and articles and never got a satisfactory answer other than I can buy them for $40 each. Now I did a search and found several people making scale trees at 150 feet. Some were okay for mass production and some looked quite good. But better yet, I could take the technique of trunk buildin from one guy and the branch building from another, and I can bring my own stuff to the next level.
So. my recomendation is YouTube. (There are several building a layout beginning to end out there--including from here at Model Railroading.)
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
I have used foam in the past but I find it a bit pricey as compared to other techniques. OK for a small layout but I have a basement sized layout. I have developed my own method which is sort of a hybrid of other methods. I build a web of cardboard strips to shape the hills which is an old techique. I then cover the web with red resin paper. I forget what I paid for it but one roll will last a lifetime. I use a hot glue gun for both steps. I then mix powdered joint compound with water to create a batter which I spread over the resin paper. I like this material because it has a long working time as opposed to various plaster materials. For a landform near the front of the layout I will use plaster of paris instead because it is stronger than the joint compound and better suited to take some abuse. For scenery near the backdrop which I will cover with puffball trees, all I do is paint the resin paper an earth color. No strength is needed back there. I just need to make sure any resin paper showing through any gaps isn't going to stand out.
Over the years I've tried a lot of popular techniques. In addition to foam board, I have used window screen and hydrocal soaked paper towels over a landform built with masking tape and wadded up newspapers. It's really a matter of preference. Once covered with other scenery materials they all end up looking pretty much the same.
I went with plaster over screen myself but made the mistake of starting out with blue label which cracks when it dries so I had to go back over it with red label which sets up as hard as a rock...
What the best technique depends on who you ask. Some say foam, some say paper towels dipped in plaster and draped over a cardboard skeleton. Some say plaster impregnated gauze draped over a cardboard skeleton. I think the paper towels work the best because they have a more realistic texture than the gauze and right from the start they look like scenery that is covered in snow compared to pink foam. Dave Frary’s books are good. You tube videos by Luke Towan are good too.
I mostly go for cardboard strips and paper towels method. I use old cereal boxes, you do not need the cardboard once the paster had set up. I space the strips a couple inches apart, just enough to support the plastered towels without sagging. To me it is the most cost effective and least messy.
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
For $12, you can purchse a roll of red rosin paper from Home Depot or Lowes. it comes 4' x 144'...enough to do a major railroad and then some. I wrote an article published in Nov, 2006 in RMC about this technique. Application is quite simple...just glue small sheets (approx. 12" x 18") to card board webbing starting like installing a roof.....from the bottom up.
Then just coat with full strength Elmers white glue. That's it for basic shell. Plaster or Hydrocal rock castings hold perfectly as do trees and whatevers. Check out my site for final look ...... www. zanestrains.com.
HZ
I've been fortunate and have picked up free foam from construction sites along my bus route. Found some full 2x8 sheets of 2" in the classified section at half price. Like the little Surform tool (size of a tablespoon) to do landforming.
Also there is another method based on cardboard strips and paper towels, but rather than use plaster it uses white glue. Google "glue shell" and find may ideas includinig some referring to MR articles. Looks cleaner than using plaster.
Just some thoughts.
Have fun,
Richard
Howard Zane For $12, you can purchse a roll of red rosin paper from Home Depot or Lowes. it comes 4' x 144'...enough to do a major railroad and then some. I wrote an article published in Nov, 2006 in RMC about this technique. Application is quite simple...just glue small sheets (approx. 12" x 18") to card board webbing starting like installing a roof.....from the bottom up. Then just coat with full strength Elmers white glue. That's it for basic shell. Plaster or Hydrocal rock castings hold perfectly as do trees and whatevers. Check out my site for final look ...... www. zanestrains.com. HZ
Howard, it was your article that got me started with the red resin paper and I have used it extensively since. I never got the hang of using white glue for the shell. It tended to run down the slope and collect near the bottom. Maybe it was the brand of glue I was using and it was too thin to stay in place. Can't remember what I was using back then. I switched to using the powdered joint compound mixed with water instead. I can control the thickness of it and it creates a fairly strong shell. Not quite as strong as plaster which is why I use plaster of paris for the up front terrain. I also add a little color to the joint compound or plaster in case it chips.
Howard Zanered rosin paper
Haven't heard of that paper, but I saw just recently an article about using landscape cloth over cardboard strips and under plaster.
Plaster in a big bag 80#? is cheap enough. It is messy in that it drips on the floor, it's heavy and you have to clean out your mixing bowl. It is easily painted, cast and carved. Gaps are easily filled with more plaster.
Because of weight and the challenge of doing something different, I will be using more foam.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
For scereny you can get by with the white bead stuff,free from most dumpsters. Cover with drywall mud, also low price.
Myself, I wouldn't buy a bunch of books, there is so mutch info free right here and as stated you tube. Scenery is a learn as you go thing,I'll bet there isn't two MRers that do it the same. Pretty hard to screw it up.
I was bran' spankin' new about 13 years ago and was in the same place as you. I opted for extruded foam and had a very enjoyable time. Trouble was, it was my first attempt to build a layout and I found I wanted to push the pace. As a result, my scenery didn't look good at all. You may do better. Carving foam, and then sanding it, and then either draping painter's sheet-material cloths and using plaster, or using poly-fiber batts, the low loft kind, and all the glues...it just isn't for me.
Then I saw Joe Fugate, who used to post here in the mid-2000s before going on to develop his e-zine, reply to a post about scenery techniques. He described using window screen, cut to shape, and hot glued to the sub-roadbed and various risers and supports here and there. Then you mix a goop of finely ground vermiculite, plaster of Paris, and Portland cement, and make it a slurry by adding water until it is close to muddy...not so runny, just like dryish cement. You slather that across the window screen about 3/4" deep, more if necessary to build a strong base for stuff that will rise near vertically at time, and let it dry. Just before it dries fully, you spray with a glue/water mix and sprinkle ground foam over it. I thought to use masonry dye powders, 'mesa' and 'brown' and added a pinch to each small bucket of the slurry I mixed.
Over the area of a layout, it means a lot of batches of the goop, but eventually I came up with this:
On my last layout, four years ago:
Scenery foam is the best because you can get it free, everyone gets packing material these days and the foam sheets come in all sizes.
I have never tried using any kind of foam,but it sounds interesting, question?..............Using foam, how do you construct negative scenery.... that which desends below track level. It seems to me that foam layers are great for building postive scenery (rising above track level)....sort of like an archtectural contour model.
UNCLEBUTCHFor scereny you can get by with the white bead stuff,free from most dumpsters. Cover with drywall mud, also low price.
I've never bought foam for scenery. They were building houses all around ours when I built the basic layout; I went dumpster diving. (I got most of my plywood and some of the 2x2s that way too.)
For shaping foam (of any kind), I use an old electric carving knife that I bought at a garage sale. On the low density styrofoam that Butch mentions, using most other methods leave a royal mess, with beads of styrofoam floating all over the place and static-sticking to everything. The carving knife is great with foam rubber too, you can do some pretty precise cutting.
Genesee Terminal, freelanced HO in Upstate NY ...hosting Loon Bay Transit Authority and CSX Intermodal. Interchange with CSX (CR)(NYC).
CP/D&H, N scale, somewhere on the Canadian Shield
Howard ZaneI have never tried using any kind of foam,but it sounds interesting, question?..............Using foam, how do you construct negative scenery.... that which desends below track level.
Howard, I had that in mind when I built mine, so my layout starts with a layer of 2" foam. That went down on the bench top before I did anything else. That gave me about 14 scale feet in depth for creeks, ditches, pits, etc.
Mike.
My You Tube
Howard ZaneI have never tried using any kind of foam,but it sounds interesting, question?..............Using foam, how do you construct negative scenery.... that which desends below track level. It seems to me that foam layers are great for building postive scenery (rising above track level)....
You also could stack/glue on the bottom,right down to the floor
riogrande5761Then I put plaster gauze over the webbing - another expense but if you order 5 lb rolls from Activa on Amazon it's much cheaper than Woodland Scenics or Scenic express:
I was thinking about buying some stuff in Woodlands... Is it better quality?
NYBW-JohnOver the years I've tried a lot of popular techniques. In addition to foam board, I have used window screen and hydrocal soaked paper towels over a landform built with masking tape and wadded up newspapers. It's really a matter of preference. Once covered with other scenery materials they all end up looking pretty much the same.
So basically there is not method more realistic then another?
Howard ZaneI wrote an article published in Nov, 2006 in RMC about this technique.
Can you link this article please.
PatKen007 So basically there is not method more realistic then another?
The "realistic " part is how you finish it. All of the techniques talked about are the basic land forms. How you finish off the land forms, as with rock fomations, ground cover, trees, roads, etc., etc., is what makes it all realistic, not the structure that supports it all.
And, your question on Woodland Scenics, there are many substitutes that are more economical. Woodland Scenics just packages it all together, as a "system", instead of gathering items on your own. Nothing to do about it being "better quality", just selling the "easier" part.
BigDaddyecause of weight and the challenge of doing something different, I will be using more foam.
How heavy can it be? Is that really a BIG problem.
PatKen007 NYBW-John Over the years I've tried a lot of popular techniques. In addition to foam board, I have used window screen and hydrocal soaked paper towels over a landform built with masking tape and wadded up newspapers. It's really a matter of preference. Once covered with other scenery materials they all end up looking pretty much the same. So basically there is not method more realistic then another?
NYBW-John Over the years I've tried a lot of popular techniques. In addition to foam board, I have used window screen and hydrocal soaked paper towels over a landform built with masking tape and wadded up newspapers. It's really a matter of preference. Once covered with other scenery materials they all end up looking pretty much the same.
Any of them will work, provided you do the work. Layered foam doesn't require the cutting and hot gluing of the window screen I mentioned. You don't have to then mix batches of a slurry in a bucket, slather it over the screen, and then wash the utensils and bucket scrupulously between batches...as I do. I don't have to use a wire brush and sanding block on my foam because I don't generally use foam. I don't have to vacuum up all the tiny foam bits that go everywhere while I use a wire brush or sanding block. The goop methods doesn't normally leave straight, or staggered-like-brickwork strata layers from the stacking and gluing...oh yea, it doesn't require tubes of PL300 either. And so on....take yer pick of yer poison.
But even so, either technique only provides the basic land form after all the cutting and shaping. From there, you have to learn how to apply ground foam and trees, even how to stain the surface so that it looks like soil. You have to let bits of grit and rock slide down slopes naturally so that they actually look like scale rock slides. A field of scree on a layout is something to behold if done well...and in the 'right' place.
So, each method has its detractors and supporters, and any one of us can do a passable job with each of them...if we are motivated so to do.
riogrande5761 I used cardboard strips which are almost free if you cut them from old cardboard boxes..... I went a little crazy with mine but you don't have to.
I used cardboard strips which are almost free if you cut them from old cardboard boxes..... I went a little crazy with mine but you don't have to.
Wow... I've seen worse planking on wooden boats! We are kindred spirits! Afterall - why use a 2 x 4 when a 12 x 12 will work!
Jim