richhotrain gdelmoro Right again RICH! So I placed a level across the tracks at various locations along the curve. At the begining (bottom of original picture) the track is level. about 1/3 up toward the bridge the outer rail (left looking at the picture) was about 1/16” low. Then it levels out and at the top by the bridge the outer rail was also about 1/16 low. I shimmed the track and low and behold! The loco ran forward, back at step 1 and 14 without any derail. I did this 5 times. Now i need to permanent affix the track where I pried it out of the ballast to shim it. Thanks again. Gary, the permanent solution would be to remove and re-lay the track on a perfectly level surface. The shims should only be a temporary fix. Then run that loco around the track at least 10 times in each of the four movements that I mentioned earlier to be certain that the problem has been resolved. Rich
gdelmoro Right again RICH! So I placed a level across the tracks at various locations along the curve. At the begining (bottom of original picture) the track is level. about 1/3 up toward the bridge the outer rail (left looking at the picture) was about 1/16” low. Then it levels out and at the top by the bridge the outer rail was also about 1/16 low. I shimmed the track and low and behold! The loco ran forward, back at step 1 and 14 without any derail. I did this 5 times. Now i need to permanent affix the track where I pried it out of the ballast to shim it. Thanks again.
Right again RICH!
So I placed a level across the tracks at various locations along the curve. At the begining (bottom of original picture) the track is level.
about 1/3 up toward the bridge the outer rail (left looking at the picture) was about 1/16” low. Then it levels out and at the top by the bridge the outer rail was also about 1/16 low. I shimmed the track and low and behold! The loco ran forward, back at step 1 and 14 without any derail. I did this 5 times.
Now i need to permanent affix the track where I pried it out of the ballast to shim it.
Thanks again.
Gary, the permanent solution would be to remove and re-lay the track on a perfectly level surface. The shims should only be a temporary fix. Then run that loco around the track at least 10 times in each of the four movements that I mentioned earlier to be certain that the problem has been resolved.
Rich
Well, I guess that will be the plan. This time I’ll need to take up the cork roadbed too!
Gary
If you just set it on the glass, the trucks may not settle front to back, leaving the outboard wheels slightly raised and all weight on the inboard wheels. You need to see if the trucks easily tilt and swivel, if they do, all is well. Push down a little and it should even out on the glass.
The flange is many times the thickness of a piece of paper. If the paper just barely slips under one end and not under the other - that's NOT the reason it derails.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
gdelmoro PS: I did writes to HOGTRAINZ where I purchased the locomotive because although the loco no longer derails, those trucks should make contact evenly on the plate glass and they do not. I don’t know if there is a fix?
PS: I did writes to HOGTRAINZ where I purchased the locomotive because although the loco no longer derails, those trucks should make contact evenly on the plate glass and they do not.
I don’t know if there is a fix?
Even if one or more of the trucks does not completely sit flat on a sheet of glass, as a 4-axle locomotive, the RS-1 should not derail so long as the track is stable and level.
Alton Junction
BTW: Those track gauges are for track spacing...not true curve radius gauges...
Take Care!
Frank
richhotrain I still think that it is the track. When you lay a lengthy curve with flextrack, the individual sections are best soldered together to avoid unnatural segments in the curve. And the flextrack needs to laid on a level, stable surface to avoid waviness. I have seen track work on curves where one rail is higher than the other at one point and then the other rail is higher at another point, sort of like a roller coaster or tilt-a-whirl. Rich
I still think that it is the track. When you lay a lengthy curve with flextrack, the individual sections are best soldered together to avoid unnatural segments in the curve. And the flextrack needs to laid on a level, stable surface to avoid waviness. I have seen track work on curves where one rail is higher than the other at one point and then the other rail is higher at another point, sort of like a roller coaster or tilt-a-whirl.
Unfortunately for me, YOU are usually correct.
This curve section is about 6’ long and connects to the rest of the curve (another 6 or 7‘). when I installed it I soldered the two sections together on my workbench and then laid it on the roadbed. You may remember this is the section I replaced because it had a bad weld causing derails and was not level rail to rail. I thought it was pretty good but ....
Once again, it’s not just a simple fix. Today I’ll check the track level and truck movement and get back to youall.
I know the track gauge is good and there are no obstructions (welds or mismatched track connections because I have checked visually, with an NMRA gauge and this track tool slides smoothly arround the entire curve.
gdelmoro Shouldn’t it be hard to get the paper unde any wheels and not be able to pull it through without the locomotive moving?
Yes......He has that back-wards.....You should Not be able to get the paper under Any wheels. If You can get it under any wheel..that is more than likely Your problem. The slightest dip/high spot in a curve will force the wheel to derail. You should be able to lift the front/rear truck on the bolster on each end at least a 1/4'' up/down....with a twisted truck..it would still derail. There are no shocks/springs on the trucks so there would be one wheel barely touching the top of rail head if a truck was twisted or not enough vertical movement up/down on the bolster.
Or in Your case...In Your photos...I see some almost straight sections in Your curve..not a continuous curve radius and when the engine hits that spot, the back wheel wants to continue going forward and lifts that high wheel off the rail head.....if Your track work is not perfectly level in that spot....even more so. I suspect that like has been explained....You have a restriction of up/down movement in one of Your truks...possibly caused by a short wire to the truck.
Good Luck!
Ok tomorrow I’ll place a level across the rails, take the shell off and check the wires.
BTW the truck details to the outside rail
All of the comments about checking the power trucks for flat/square, and checking the track for level side to side are very valid. But apparently it is only one engine that repeatedly derails at this spot. I have noticed that recent Atlas engines have been very stingy with the length of the wire that connects the power trucks to the circuit board -- be sure that the trucks have full motion side to side and up and down. I've had to extend some of these wires to make them track better through rough spots.
If you don't already know this, repeat the process of getting the locomotive to derail and see if the wheel lifts toward the outside of the curve or the inside. Also, is it the lead axle that does this first?
I ask this because, as Rich has suspected, when I get a derailment on a curve I always assume the outer rail is lower than the inner, and not all along...it has a measurable dip someplace, and the outer wheel's flange simply slides over the rail and you have your derailment.
I don't see a kink anywhere, and if the tracks are in gauge all the way along, it must be a rail height disparity tranversely...across from each other. I also assume the axles are inserted into their journals properly in the trucks, and that the trucks both pivot left and right the same amount with no snags or binding. If they are all okay, look for a rail height disparity near, not necessarily at, the place where it derails.
It could be the trucks or it could be out of gauge wheels, but my gut tells me it is the track.
The RS-1 is a 4-axle diesel, so it is less likely to derail than a 6-axle diesel even if the trucks are not perfectly sitting on the rails.
On the RS-1, the cab is in the rear as the locomotive moves forward. There are four movements on a section of track.
If I understand you correctly, it sounds as if the locomotive derails heading north whether moving forward or in reverse. But, it does not derail when headed south, whether moving forward or in reverse.
My suspicion is that the track is not flat. One rail is higher than the other. Or, the curve is not smooth. There is a kink in it. That is my educated guess.
Ran it backeards (cab forward) to see if I could get past the area it derailed going forward but it derailed a little further up towards the bridge.
So i took it back to the other side of the layout and turned the loco arround and ran it forward from way back before the bridge (about 12’) and it mad it through the curve speed step 1 and 7. No derail.
After it was about at the bottom of the picture I reversed and it derailed about 8” before the bridge. A little further than usual.
I placed the loco on a plate glass shelf and ran a piece of copy paper under the trucks. The front truck (w/hood to the left and cab to the right) papper passed easily (no resistance) under both left truck wheels. When I ran it under the back wheels (same side) it passed under but there was obvious resistance .
I turned the loco arround (cab to left - hood to right) same thing the rear most truck (now to the left) the paper slid right under no resistance. the front most trick (now to the left) clearly had more resistance. Shouldn’t it be hard to get the paper unde any wheels and not be able to pull it through without the locomotive moving?
I’ll try all these and get back
One other thing to try is the level/square of the truck.
Take a sheet of glass (an 8x10 picture will do) and lay it on a level counter/bench. Place the loco on the glass. Now take a small piece of paper (printer paper is fine) and try to slide it under each wheel, one at a time. The paper should slider under each wheel with equal force.
If you find that one wheel is very hard to get the paper under, or with another wheel the paper just slides under it with ease, you have a crooked truck. Sometimes the truck has been assembled crooked and a little twisting can solve it. Sometimes a bearing is out of position or bent. Sometimes a little filing can fix the issue. It depends what it is. I've even seen the worm cover cause a crooked truck, or the bolster itself.
But the sheet of glass trick really does work well to find problems. I've used it on steam and diesels with good results.
gdelmoro Hard to tell, I cannot get directly in front. I see the left come off but can’t swear the right didn’t come off first.
Hard to tell, I cannot get directly in front. I see the left come off but can’t swear the right didn’t come off first.
It's easy for the angle to not be perfect and mess up the persoective, but in the overhead view, those curves don;t look all that smooth.
Does it derail if you have it creep at speed step 1 over the trouble spot? If it does, that's probably the best chance you have of seeing what happens, closely watchign the truck as it slowly creeps ahead and you cna find the precise point of derailment. Could even be something as silly as a stray piece of ballast. Or maybe that Kadee spring you thought flew to the floor months ago - is now found.
gdelmoro richhotrain gdelmoro It derails on the left track going away from you moving forward cab in back. OK, that helps. So it derails on the left track headed toward the bridge in forward postion. Correct? Which truck derails? Is this the only way that this loco derails? No other way and only at that spot? Rich Yes toward the Bridge, front truck. yes does not derail going the other way. That would be simply reversed
richhotrain gdelmoro It derails on the left track going away from you moving forward cab in back. OK, that helps. So it derails on the left track headed toward the bridge in forward postion. Correct? Which truck derails? Is this the only way that this loco derails? No other way and only at that spot? Rich
gdelmoro It derails on the left track going away from you moving forward cab in back.
It derails on the left track going away from you moving forward cab in back.
OK, that helps. So it derails on the left track headed toward the bridge in forward postion. Correct?
Which truck derails?
Is this the only way that this loco derails? No other way and only at that spot?
Yes toward the Bridge, front truck.
yes does not derail going the other way. That would be simply reversed
DSchmitt With track, sometimes a location upstream of deralment may may be the problem. That is the loco may actually be derailing at another location but appearing to be on the track .
With track, sometimes a location upstream of deralment may may be the problem. That is the loco may actually be derailing at another location but appearing to be on the track .
Yes, been there :(.
I watch it derail about half way through the curve so I know it’s godo until then. You can also hear it when it derails.
gdelmoro Decided to do this before I shovel snow! The atlas derails about halfway between the bottom of the picture and the bridge. Here is a TOP view. The derail occurs about mid point. I ran a 6 car train backwards through this spot and no detrails.
Decided to do this before I shovel snow!
The atlas derails about halfway between the bottom of the picture and the bridge.
Here is a TOP view. The derail occurs about mid point.
I ran a 6 car train backwards through this spot and no detrails.
And which direction is the loco moving when it derails? Moving toward the bridge or moving away from the bridge?
Is the loco moving forward, that is with cab at the back, when it derails? Or does it derail in reverse, that is moving forward with cab at the front?
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.