Ulrich,
I think the fact that we can have a contentious but civil exchange of views on this topic and then still be able to poke a little fun at ourselves is the sign of a good discussion. I'm sure there's more to be said, but sure, let's try to keep it on topic - mostly.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I think this thread is now completely off track. Is there anything that hasn´t been said? If not, let´s rest the issue!
dknelson And whether you are a model railroader with stuff, or a railfan with slides, books, collectibles and stuff, who wouldn't benefit from better organization? Maybe I need to find me one of these CPOs. Dave Nelson
And whether you are a model railroader with stuff, or a railfan with slides, books, collectibles and stuff, who wouldn't benefit from better organization?
Maybe I need to find me one of these CPOs.
Dave Nelson
I think that's called a Railroad Professional Organizer or RPO?
duplicate filter not working today
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
My wife srofessional organizator skills without the initials after her name. To the initials, she would surely say, what a load of ..
maxman SeeYou190 Do you mean they get paid to put things away? . This thread just went way Off Topic, but it is more fun now! I didn't look to deeply into what they do, but my impression is that they don't actually put anything away. I think you pay them to tell you how to put your own stuff away.
SeeYou190 Do you mean they get paid to put things away? . This thread just went way Off Topic, but it is more fun now!
I didn't look to deeply into what they do, but my impression is that they don't actually put anything away. I think you pay them to tell you how to put your own stuff away.
Douglass,
Good observations, but I'll offer up a couple of points that suggest that the AP and MMR that's part of it is less of an "achievement standard" than it may be a systemized assessment of the application of the development of one's skills.
If you want a focus that is more exclusively on prototype, then there are the Railroad Prototype Modeler's (RPM) Meets. These involve some NMRA members, but lots of other folks, although interestingly enough it's NMRA-sponsored insurance that sometimes covers these public events, another one of the ways in whcih the NMRA supports the infrastructures of the hobby.
While there is a lot of attention to prototype practices in the AP and MMR, not all models involved need have a specific prototype. What's important is the skill in building and their conformance to the applicable design and standards. This could involve a model of a prototype that is decorated for one's private roadname, for instance. Other models may have no actual prototype, but are constructed using designs and details that reflect documented prototype practices.
I would say there is a tendency to see the MMR designation in use more recently. First, there are simply more MMRs around now than there were in its early days.
Second, it is something that has to be earned (any initial awards to well-qualified hobby pioneers who may or may not have filled out paperwork aside -- remember the Flintstones pitched cigarettes back then, too, and we no longer see that happening either), so its use engenders some respect within the NMRA community because we know the effort required to achieve the MMR. Whether others care about that or not is their business, but the notion that the MMR is "one of the negative things that the NMRA does TO the hobby" seems pretty unfounded.
Finally, use of the MMR does promote it and the AP program as a whole. Again, pretty easy to ignore if it bothers you. It's just one of the things we do, but also one that people find interesting and rewarding in the sense that it does develop ones modeling skills. Mostly, as several have noted, it's about competing with your own last best efforts and only applies to competition with others if one chooses to participate in contests. The AP and MMR supply volunteers for contest judging and clinic development and presentation in many cases, so these efforts are a vital part of what sustains the NMRA's volunteer infrastructure.
Mothers have been telling children that for ages.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Bayfield Transfer Railway Part of it, of course, is what one's objectives are.My primary and strongest interest in the hobby is operations. I have spent a considerable amount of time trying to learn how real railroads do certain things, including a lot of time working to become at least halfway compentent at dispatching by timetable and train order. I want a layout with "good enough" rolling stock, track, and scenery that I can have satisfying and enjoyable operations on. If I had to choose between a layout with scenery and no operations or operations and no scenery, I'd pick operations every time.I also am 62 years old without a current place for a layout. If I am very, VERY lucky I've got thirty good years left.Spending time on anything that does not directy affect my desire to have a "pretty good" layout that has fun operations makes no sense to my personal viewpoint. I've done enough operations to know that during operations, the fine underbody details of a car (for instance) are irrelevant. As I once observed, "if you can see the underside of one of my freight cars, things have gone seriously wrong."If building models for the sake of building models is what's fun for one, then one will look at the question differently.In this as in so many other things, the key to success is proper management of expectations.
Part of it, of course, is what one's objectives are.My primary and strongest interest in the hobby is operations. I have spent a considerable amount of time trying to learn how real railroads do certain things, including a lot of time working to become at least halfway compentent at dispatching by timetable and train order. I want a layout with "good enough" rolling stock, track, and scenery that I can have satisfying and enjoyable operations on. If I had to choose between a layout with scenery and no operations or operations and no scenery, I'd pick operations every time.I also am 62 years old without a current place for a layout. If I am very, VERY lucky I've got thirty good years left.Spending time on anything that does not directy affect my desire to have a "pretty good" layout that has fun operations makes no sense to my personal viewpoint. I've done enough operations to know that during operations, the fine underbody details of a car (for instance) are irrelevant. As I once observed, "if you can see the underside of one of my freight cars, things have gone seriously wrong."If building models for the sake of building models is what's fun for one, then one will look at the question differently.In this as in so many other things, the key to success is proper management of expectations.
That pretty much sums up my opinion. I responded earlier in the thread about the term itself being foreign to me, and I've been in the hobby for 40 years. It seems to be a designation for those folks in the hobby who have interest in representing individual pieces of equipment with prototypical precision. That's never been something that's interested me so that is probably why the term is foreign to me.
To add another thought. After reading this thread it seems obvious that the NMRA has simply set an achievement standard for those interested in that aspect of the hobby. How seriously a person takes that standard as part of their ego, status, or competition within their chosen circles is a matter of personal choice. The NMRA can't be responsible for that, so I don't see why the NMRA should be criticized for estblishing the MMR designation.
- Douglas
That's really funny......
Sheldon
SeeYou190Do you mean they get paid to put things away? . This thread just went way Off Topic, but it is more fun now!
Before this gets too far off track, it's worthwhile to point out that some certifications are really about gaining income as much as the documentation of professional skills.
I mentioned that some MMR engage in model railroad related business because the skill sets and knowledge base provides them the resources to do that.
But the MMR is pretty much not about making money, but about volunteer contribution to the hobby. It's possible some do get reimbursed for lodging and meals in exchange for their services judging contest at conventions they might not otherwise attend. I just don't know. But adding MMR is not about the money for anyoe as far as I know in contrast to most of the examples being cited here. The exception to this is Scouting, where the volunteer ethic is very much like that of the NMRA, People do it becaue they think it's worthwhile in and of itself, not because of the money
SeeYou190 maxman It stands for "Certified Professional Organizer". You can Google that. Evidently special training is involved because "not everyone can do it". . Do you mean they get paid to put things away? . This thread just went way , but it is more fun now! . -Kevin .
maxman It stands for "Certified Professional Organizer". You can Google that. Evidently special training is involved because "not everyone can do it".
.
Do you mean they get paid to put things away?
This thread just went way , but it is more fun now!
-Kevin
The world really has lost its mind........common sense is not so common any more......
maxmanIt stands for "Certified Professional Organizer". You can Google that. Evidently special training is involved because "not everyone can do it".
Living the dream.
PennCentral99 maxman Those of you who have difficulty with the appellation MMR used after someone's name will enjoy this. Today I saw a car with an ad for Annie R******, CPO. Anyone care to guess what a CPO is? (Googling is cheating) If we were in the Navy, it would be Chief Petty Officer. But in the example you gave, it's Certified Pre-Owned (like they really need to certify that someone already owned the car before you.......it's still USED Terry
maxman
Those of you who have difficulty with the appellation MMR used after someone's name will enjoy this. Today I saw a car with an ad for Annie R******, CPO. Anyone care to guess what a CPO is? (Googling is cheating)
Those of you who have difficulty with the appellation MMR used after someone's name will enjoy this. Today I saw a car with an ad for Annie R******, CPO.
Anyone care to guess what a CPO is? (Googling is cheating)
If we were in the Navy, it would be Chief Petty Officer.
But in the example you gave, it's Certified Pre-Owned (like they really need to certify that someone already owned the car before you.......it's still USED
Terry
Nope.
It stands for "Certified Professional Organizer". You can Google that. Evidently special training is involved because "not everyone can do it".
maxman Those of you who have difficulty with the appellation MMR used after someone's name will enjoy this. Today I saw a car with an ad for Annie R******, CPO. Anyone care to guess what a CPO is? (Googling is cheating)
Inspired by Addiction
See more on my YouTube Channel
Nope. Try again.
In my organization, the CPO is the "Chief Procurement Officer", but that is a job position, not a title, so I doubt that is what your example is.
It is relevant to me because it is a carrot that keeps me going. It is not a competition as the only one you compete against is yourself. I only have two certificates and that was 20 years ago. There won't be another 20 years left in my life to finish, but I won't quit trying. I am building one last layout and I have some of the certificate requirements printed out to use as a checklist as it is fairly easy to incorporate these items in the layout. Over the years, I have met and know several MMR's and they are all great modelers and super people.
Ken Vandevoort
The world has changed. Having the right title still gets you in the door but others have access without it by being clever or a real performer. There are backdoors to most things now and that is good because not everyone wants to put in the time or effort. That being said, I have relooked at the requirements for MMR and they are, for the most part, doable in a year, the last requirement being the most dificult as it takes time and others coperation for most of it and would be very hard to do in a year.
BRAKIE Brunton If someone needs to put part alphabet soup behind their name to feel validated, then good for them. I don't. I already have a title that was given to me eons ago..PEFM=Poor Excuse For a Modeler.
Brunton If someone needs to put part alphabet soup behind their name to feel validated, then good for them. I don't.
I already have a title that was given to me eons ago..PEFM=Poor Excuse For a Modeler.
Ed,
I cited those docs because they cover the basics under discussion here. The first is a history that someone wrote recently. Of course, ANY history has its POV. Do you imagine that history exists that is without any POV? Not to my knowledge, in fact it's probably NOT history if it makes such a claim.
The second is what describes the AP program as it currently exists. It's factual for the most part, but likely also has a certain POV.
In either case, if you think there's an error of interpretation or fact, that's YOUR job to bring evidence to the table to dispute what they state or to offer evidence for a differing interpretation. To simply claim they have a bias, then walk away dismissively, is not useful or persuasive nor does it provide any reason to call them into question. At least that's what historians do, because that's how I was trained and applied that to literally thousands of documents used and cited in my dissertation.
It's the critic's role, whether as a historian or as we are doing here, to provide the basis of alternative readings of the meaning in the documents. There are many ways to do this. You could cite other docs that dispute whats in them. You could contextualize them with other evidence that suggests what's in them is questionable. You could analyze evidence that suggests an alternative explanation.
What's unconvincing is to claim because they might be biased (yeah, but so what since you've pointed to nothing specific that suggests that they actually are inaccurate) that readers should disregard what the NMRA says about itself or to simply dismiss what those who've done research on the topic have to say.
Following up on an earlier concern of yours...
7j43k it is a very neat thing to honor "forerunners". But if it's honorary, I would think it would be so specified. There are doctorates, and honorary doctorates, after all. It looks kind of funny to effectively say: "We do have "rules" on how to get this award, but since you're so wonderful, we'll just skip that part." And, if the point of MMR is to get modelers to become well rounded or better or whatever, then the honorary ones, named or not, do not do that. Now, perhaps they did in the past. And perhaps Bill Walthers collected his early achievements and submitted them. Very early in the program. And Paul, too. So, if NMRA wants to honor those forerunners, which is a great thing to do, it might be nice to specifically say they are doing just that, with an HONORARY MMR. What might make even more sense would be to separate the two groups. Ya got one group who did all the required work and filled out all the forms and get their badges. And ya got this OTHER group, on a different page, that get a "FORERUNNER" awared. Not an MMR, but a FORERUNNER.
Applying the concept of contextualization, I can offer an assessment fo whether or not these first few MMR's were intended to be "honorary" or not. I suspect not, since the NMRA has a variety of other such designations with which to do that, in which some of the same first MMR group were also awarded these. See:
http://www.archive-org-2013.com/org/n/2013-11-28_3240901_20/NMRA-HLM-Honors-List/
There is the Honorary Life Member Award, the Distinguished Service Award, The Fellow of the NMRA Award, the President's Award, the Meritorious Service Award, and the one most like the "Forerunner Award" you propose, the Pioneers of Model Railroading.
Since it's from an archive, things are a bit sketchy in this text, but there are lots of other ways in whcih these early notable model railroaders could be recognized other than the MMR. I suspect this adds weight to the notion that the NMRA chose this first class of MMR's for their widely recognized skill sets to serve as an example for those who would pursue the MMR. Sure, it's a contextual argument, but it's what we have right now. But it is just one example of how you actually make a case about a historical subject beyond complaining about bias with no evidence or argument to support that claim.
restorator I also will say that this is what perpetuates the perception of model railroaders as a bunch of "grumpy old men" that just want to complain about everything for the sake of it.
I also will say that this is what perpetuates the perception of model railroaders as a bunch of "grumpy old men" that just want to complain about everything for the sake of it.
I'll disagree. I think what perpetuates the perception is that model railroaders ARE a bunch of "grumpy old men". Except for a few young uppity punks. And they'll be gettin' old pretty darn soon.
Ed
SeeYou190 I know of no other hobby that bestows a "title" on thier most worthy participants. Wargamers don't. Plastic scale modelers don't. R/C pilots don't. At least not that anyone has ever told me about.
I know of no other hobby that bestows a "title" on thier most worthy participants. Wargamers don't. Plastic scale modelers don't. R/C pilots don't. At least not that anyone has ever told me about.
In my life beyond the basement I restore classic cars, and have achived the highest awards at many national and international events in both AACA and CCCA competition including a The Pebble Beach Concours De'elegance. This is definately a hobby from the guy who works on his own car in the backyard and takes it to local shows, to the guy who collects a rare one of a kind and brings it to us to do the grunt work.
(and in some rare cases might even cost less than some of the greatest model railroads!)
3 pages of arguing over whether someone should be rewarded for working hard and achieving something? Comments about how the world outside the hobby views them? No wonder most people in the hobby have become loners and it's hard to get new people interested. I see this attitude in many posts here. I see the same divisiveness when I went to check out local clubs to see if I wanted to join. No thank you. I want to be part of something that teaches what I dont know and helps others find their own measure of success, not just a grumble fest and how the other guy is no good.
I could care less what you think of me personally or my hobbies and interests or life goals. And I can be happy with whatever level of achivement I am at in any part of life as long as I am on the path I seek. In some things I want to learn more and do better. In others I can accept thats far enough for me. But I dont go and diminish others that put their hard work and time into what they do. Some people are far better than I ever will be at certain things and I better at others.
For instance, I could care less about whether someone seeks to achive an award for being the best clown in America, not within my interests. Nevertheless I will applaud and say "good for them!" They have worked hard and been recognized by their peers. I will not stop to think that it means little to the outside world, nor if they "only" had to put on some makeup to achive such a goal. The measure of success only matters that they were judged in the program they themselves chose to enter. Thats what I envision the MMR as. Currently I am no where near that level and I dont know if I ever will be or if I ever want to try, but that does not mean that the ones who have are not worthy, regardless of the current OR past "standards". Its simply not for me to judge.
Even IF the MMR award was given for just showing up, that is still not worth me complaining about because I didn't go. It still means something to the body and member that partcipates.
The only other thing I think is relvant is that if someone really thinks a group, in this case the NMRA, is not what you feel is should be, then you only have two choices that mean anything. One, you can join the club and discuss your views and vote as well as convince other voting members to change their system, or two, you can not join and not get involved in other people business.